[Camelo Thread Part 16] - Denver wants what?! p58

[thisiskoz]

JD (la)


in your opinion will carmelo be on the knicks in 2 weeks?
Chris Sheridan
(2:06 PM)


Yes. I stll say there is a 75 pefcent chance the Knicks end up with him. What is holding things up now, fom what I can discern from speaking with numerous sources, is that the Knicks are not making great offers and the Nuggets are making unrealistic demands. It is somewhat similar to last year when Daryl Moray never backed down from what he was asking fo McGrady, and Walsh blinked at the end.

interesting... but i think in this case it will be the nuggets that blink... not walsh... i dont think walsh is on the same side of the coin he was then... he can take the risk that melo will walk at the end of the year and join as a free agent... while last year there was no alternative to clear the cap space for 2 maxes... and personally i think waiting for melo in the offseason especially if donnie comes out and states what denver wanted and how theres no way he could give them all that and compete... i think the chances of him coming here would be greater then him staying... so id take the gamble...

that said... only way i throw in mozgov is if we expand the deal and get back nene somehow... and i would only consider trading 2 of 3 of gallo, fields, and chandler if we took bad no additional bad contracts... and if they want all 3... i need affalo back...

[kane2021]

Yeah, big difference between the rockets deal and this. We made that deal so we could max 2 out. This is a deal where IF he is not traded right now, we can negotiate with him directly in the summer. The team that stands to lose is the nuggets.

But this is all based of the assumption Carmelo is sincere in his desire to be a knick one way or the other.

[shrink]

I popped on to mention that how finances affect your next move. Now, its hard for the Knicks to be sure what a new CBA will have, but I wanted to point out that NYK probably wants to expand it's payroll as much as it can in this deal, maximizing the 125% + 100,000 requirement.

Why? Because if you're later looking at Chris Paul's salary, you're going to need to salary match that one too. That means being able to send out enough salary to be able be within 125% + $100,000 required because you'll be over the cap.


The NBA puts these rules in so that a team is slowed down from simply buying a championship, and that their team can't add too much salary too fast. Well, you want to add Melo and Paul's big contracts to Amare's, and you're starting from a position that had you near the salary cap. If you can get all three, I don't think you'll flinch at the lux (and I don't say that about many teams), but you will need the salary on hand to make it legal .. if the 125% rule is still in place.

Add salary in this deal, add salary with the TPE and BAE, and use whoever you need (starting with Felton) in a deal to get Melo. After that, you see how many veterans you can coax to fill out the rest of your roster.

[GONYK]

Yeah, big difference between the rockets deal and this. We made that deal so we could max 2 out. This is a deal where IF he is not traded right now, we can negotiate with him directly in the summer. The team that stands to lose is the nuggets.

But this is all based of the assumption Carmelo is sincere in his desire to be a knick one way or the other.

I'm willing to take that chance if Denver proceeds to pretend they have the leverage to ask for our starting lineup.

[MeloUpInNYC]

I think this deal only gets done if Galo is involved. The same reasons we value him so high, is the same reason Denver would want him in a deal. Plus he has an extra year on Chandler before he has to get paid. I think if we put Galo on the table, the deal gets done right there.

[johnnywishbone]

Yeah, big difference between the rockets deal and this. We made that deal so we could max 2 out. This is a deal where IF he is not traded right now, we can negotiate with him directly in the summer. The team that stands to lose is the nuggets.

But this is all based of the assumption Carmelo is sincere in his desire to be a knick one way or the other.

The thing I'm wondering about today is that Kos said he believed the Kroenkes want to sell the Nuggets. And if you look at what happened to the value of the Cavs after Lebron left it makes you wonder if Kroenke is telling Melo "look if you leave your hitting me in the pocket book big time, so don't expect to walk out of here unscathed".

It might really come down to if Melo wants to play here he is going to have to bite the bullet.

[seren]

And for those of you who over looked the "break down" of how the "Knicks and Minny" can ONLY save Denver the 24 million- I will post it again...

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

right. the only difference is this is a guy who gave away camby for cap space and booked wwe events during the playoffs because he didn't think his team would make it to western finals and was too cheap to keep the arena empty in case.

[Jitpal]

Yeah, big difference between the rockets deal and this. We made that deal so we could max 2 out. This is a deal where IF he is not traded right now, we can negotiate with him directly in the summer. The team that stands to lose is the nuggets.

But this is all based of the assumption Carmelo is sincere in his desire to be a knick one way or the other.

The thing I'm wondering about today is that Kos said he believed the Kroenkes want to sell the Nuggets. And if you look at what happened to the value of the Cavs after Lebron left it makes you wonder if Kroenke is telling Melo "look if you leave your hitting me in the pocket book big time, so don't expect to walk out of here unscathed".

It might really come down to if Melo wants to play here he is going to have to bite the bullet.

Kos said he wanted to sell AFTER he paid back the debt on the franchise and the arena. He isn't close to that yet but the $20+ million in savings will go a long way into making that happen. -Jitpal

[shrink]

You're saying their share will be 1.7 million less of the Luxury pool- ok, no problem. That's still a 22.3 million dollar savings...

I'm 100% on board with your statement that there is no way that Melo is worth $20 mil to that team for its remaining games. I make this financial argument all the time on the trade boards, and most people ignore it, saying that talent has to equal talent, and money is irrelevant.

I only posted because I wanted to make sure the numbers were right.

[GONYK]

And for those of you who over looked the "break down" of how the "Knicks and Minny" can ONLY save Denver the 24 million- I will post it again...

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

So rich people don't value 24 million dollars? Is that really your angle here?

[johnnywishbone]

And for those of you who over looked the "break down" of how the "Knicks and Minny" can ONLY save Denver the 24 million- I will post it again...

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

right. the only difference is this is a guy who gave away camby for cap space and booked wwe events during the playoffs because he didn't think his team would make it to western finals and was too cheap to keep the arena empty in case.

I think it's kind of naive to pretend we understand the finances of a billionaire. It's a lot more complicated then you guys are making it out to be.

[kane2021]

Yeah, big difference between the rockets deal and this. We made that deal so we could max 2 out. This is a deal where IF he is not traded right now, we can negotiate with him directly in the summer. The team that stands to lose is the nuggets.

But this is all based of the assumption Carmelo is sincere in his desire to be a knick one way or the other.

I'm willing to take that chance if Denver proceeds to pretend they have the leverage to ask for our starting lineup.

Yeah. I saw that so called demand they made. Really at that point, its time for carmelo to make good on his original word. Wait it out.

The only way I even entertain something like that is if im getting the big man also. But even then, that so called demand is the definition of "the farm".

[haterade]

And for those of you who over looked the "break down" of how the "Knicks and Minny" can ONLY save Denver the 24 million- I will post it again...

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

Ok how about the issue with Nene and JR Smith going to be FAs after the season? Will they not trade Melo and lose all 3 during the offseason?

[Context]

And for those of you who over looked the "break down" of how the "Knicks and Minny" can ONLY save Denver the 24 million- I will post it again...

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

It doesnt work that way when it comes to taxes. For example, when u are allowed to "write something off" it essentially means that you will not have to pay taxes ON THAT AMOUNT. So if the government allowed him for agruments sake to "right off 22.3 million" and his "tax bracket/percentage" was 25%- he would only save: 5.575 million...

[shrink]

I think it's kind of naive to pretend we understand the finances of a billionaire. It's a lot more complicated then you guys are making it out to be.

You may be right, but historically, its extremely rare for an owner .. no matter how rich .. to be willing to spend into the lux on a team that has no chance to win a ring.

Maybe as businessmen, they just can't stand paying double the market on some of their players.

[seren]

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

right. the only difference is this is a guy who gave away camby for cap space and booked wwe events during the playoffs because he didn't think his team would make it to western finals and was too cheap to keep the arena empty in case.

I think it's kind of naive to pretend we understand the finances of a billionaire. It's a lot more complicated then you guys are making it out to be.

we can only speculate by looking at what they did in the past. these guys gave away players to make sure they don't pay the tax. these guys also showed they are less interested in putting a winning team on the floor.

[knicks742]

I think it's kind of naive to pretend we understand the finances of a billionaire. It's a lot more complicated then you guys are making it out to be.

A couple of things:

1. He already has a history of not wanting to pay the tax. See the Camby trade and see the earlier rumored Nyets trade where they reportedly backed out because there were no financial savings. If we were dealing with Cuban or the russian, I would say the money savings are irrelevant but, history says, this is important to this particular owner.

2. Don't confuse wealth with liquidity. He can be worth $1 billion but he may not want to fund his teams and he expects those teams to fund themselves through their earnings. This is why that money is important, it funds the Nuggets' operations and he doesn't have to spend a penny. Not everyone operates their team the same way.

[Context]

You're saying their share will be 1.7 million less of the Luxury pool- ok, no problem. That's still a 22.3 million dollar savings...

I'm 100% on board with your statement that there is no way that Melo is worth $20 mil to that team for its remaining games. I make this financial argument all the time on the trade boards, and most people ignore it, saying that talent has to equal talent, and money is irrelevant.

I only posted because I wanted to make sure the numbers were right.

Oh I know that shrink and I just made that last post to make the minor 2.3 million adjustment- which made it 22.3

[NYSport]

Yeah, big difference between the rockets deal and this. We made that deal so we could max 2 out. This is a deal where IF he is not traded right now, we can negotiate with him directly in the summer. The team that stands to lose is the nuggets.

But this is all based of the assumption Carmelo is sincere in his desire to be a knick one way or the other.

I'm willing to take that chance if Denver proceeds to pretend they have the leverage to ask for our starting lineup.

I think this is one of the few things everyone should agree upon. I would like to think that Donnie is saving his best and most fair offer for the days leading up to the deadline. I try to ignore most of the speculation I see and hear until I get to the week of the deadline because 90% of the time its just posturing. If the NBA trade deadline wasn't so intriguing, I would just do a media blackout up until the final 2 days. Anyway, Donnie shouldn't lose this game of chicken unless Dolan is breathing down his neck...

[johnnywishbone]

And for those of you who over looked the "break down" of how the "Knicks and Minny" can ONLY save Denver the 24 million- I will post it again...

I'd stop quoting the 24 million dollar number. With a guy with this much money for all we know that figure could just be a tax write off.

It doesnt work that way when it comes to taxes. For example, when u are allowed to "write something off" it essentially means that you will not have to pay taxes ON THAT AMOUNT. So if the government allowed him for agruments sake to "right off 22.3 million" and his "tax bracket/percentage" was 25%- he would only save: 5.575 million...

We are not talking about his personal finances but the corporation. For all we know other aspects of the business could be highly profitable and whatever he stands to lose on the Nuggets he is going to take as a loss against his other profits. It could be the other way around and the whole business could be losing money and he is looking for savings here but the reality is we just don't know the truth of it all so I wouldn't make that the central aspect of my argument.