knicksnyk wrote:
I wasn't excusing Lin's turnovers. I did specifically say that Felton is better at keeping his TO's down than Lin is. Was just providing insight. Lins TO's were lower in the begining of the season when the Rockets played at a slower pace. Now the Rockets are pushing the pace a lot more & his TO's went up. Same thing happened in NY. Lins TO's were high under MDA when we were killing the pace. But when Woody came his TO's went down because of a slower pace. You are right Lin is more likely to pass on a break but I have also seen Lin score on a 3 on 1 fast break against Serge Perk & KD.
Here's my point on that. Felton and Lin have the exact same APG despite the fact that Lin's team moves at a much faster pace. That is an indictment of the "better passer" concept right there. So, perhaps pace is affecting his TO's adversely but then to be fair you have to acknowledge that Felton gets assists in a much slower offense. You could point to Felton's usage percentage being higher but then that makes the TO numbers more compelling. I feel like you have to concede one side of the argument, TO's being the obvious one even despite the pace thanks to usage. You've said as much though, Felton is better at keeping his TO's down...so I think we're pretty much in agreement.
Lin is a better derender. He gets beat by smaller quicker guards but he is quick to recover something felton isn't good at. Lin can also defend bigger players. Chris Bosh Gallo & even LBJ. Can't do it for an entire game but if there is a mismatch he more than holds his own. There was one possession against the Cavs where Lin defended Kyrie & then went on to defend one of the cavs big men all in 24 seconds forcing the cavs into a violation. Just by virtue of being bigger & stronger & more athletic than Ray Lin has the nod on teh defensive end. And Like you said based on stats he is better.
That's a good point about versatility. Felton does have a strength edge imo though...but anyway, I won't argue that Felton's better defensively. Lin's numbers are better in all of the categories I tend to focus on. My eyes have always come away thinking that Lin is easier to beat off the dribble, but I know between the numbers and discussions with others who pay attention (like you) that I'm probably mistaken.
You are right both are adept at passing for kick outs than the roll man I just think Lin is better at it . Things like threading the needle with bounce passes or threading the needle with full court passes, no look passes, skip passes touch passes etc Actually looking at Feltons numbers compared to Lin you are right both have there different tendencies. Lin prefers passing to bigs closer to the rim whereas felton passes more to shooters. But then again you have to take into consideration that the Knicks are a great 3 point shootign team whereas the rockets are not. Felton has a better assist to bad pass ratio (just slightly) but Lin has the great passing rating & the better hands rating as well.
http://www.82games.com/1213/12HOU2.HTMhttp://www.82games.com/1213/12NYK1.HTMFinishing at the rim...Lin wins.
How does passer rating work? Honest question. It seems like their ratios are pretty similar everywhere besides products of offensive system and pass preference...but the passer rating difference is pretty big.
Once again you cant just rely on things like this. Look at the games where Felton had more shot attempts than points? THose aren't good games just because he put up a lot of points he had to take a ton of shots to get there. And both Felton & Lin tend to make poor decisions at times. But with Lin it is understandable because he has yet to start in a full NBA season whereas felton is in his 8th year in the NBA he shouldn't be doing things like that. And just like felton was hurt towards the end Lin was clearly not healthy towards the beginning. I think with Felton his hand injury really messed with him mentally etc. Same with Lin in the begining of the season he was still trying to find his legs.
I was gonna add FG% break downs but it's too much effort and I got lazy
. It suggests the same thing, Lin has higher highs and lower lows whereas Felton rarely shoots below 33% but also almost never gives you better than 50% from the field. I actually thought Lin's biggest issues early were adjusting to the new system (valid reason regardless) but either way, he's been very feast or famine all season both as a passer and scorer. For Felton, it's not just the injury but games where Melo was out in which he had to shoot absurd amounts. If you follow the season he's had by game log, his FGA's increase as the team becomes more depleted and it skews the numbers a bit. I think consistency wise, when you track the game logs it's gonna be tough to sell Lin as the more consistent player thus far by any measure.
Lin as the better PG is easy to sell because Lin hasn't even started for a full season where as felton has been in the NBA for 8 seasons. A lot of the mistakes that Felton makes he shouldn't be making. Yes Felton is in better shape but you can see what his lifestyle has done to his overall athleticism. Felton really struggles with lift it seems he just isn't as athletic as he once was. Even when you lose weight that doesn't mean you are athletic. Something that I think Lin provides that the Knicks need is athleticism at the guard position. We dont have that with Felton Kidd & Prigs.
Depends on what kind of athletic you need. Felton is more explosive in terms of acceleration and combining that with his better handle...you get a PnR weapon despite his lower finishing rate at the rim (surprisingly Lin gets blocked a higher percentage of the time according to the links you showed). As for Felton's a vet who still makes mistakes...that doesn't make Lin the better player right now. Lin makes more mistakes period. He makes more TO's and slightly more bad passes. Felton scores more at only a slightly worse efficiency which is crazy considering the guy played a ton of games with injured hands. Felton's the better player right now, that Lin is younger only holds weight if we're talking about years ahead. If you want to compare contracts, it's still an extremely tough sell on Lin thanks to how cheap you get Felton and Lin's growth is impossible to project accurately.
In terms of fitting with the Knicks I agree think Felton fits better becuase he is the prototypical mike woodson PG. Low TO's. Felton handles defensive pressure a lot better than Lin does that is for sure. Felton is also a veteran so woody doesn't have to teach him how to the play the game whereas with Lin McHale has to teach him. Something felton is great at is that he can split traps Lin struggles with that he passes out of the trap he doesnt splits them. Also Lin likes to play with pace & get out & run Woodson doesn't do that. Felton is currently the better 3 point shooter than Lin is so he makes sense for this team. So interms of what Woodson wants yes felton is the better fit but he isn't the better player. Also felton has expereienced the playoffs Lin hasn't (although Feltons numbers in the post season are mediocre).
Yeah, I think in terms of better Woodson PG it's clear. I really hope Felton's post season numbers will improve, can't believe how Jameer did him. For now though, Felton just makes a lot more sense for the system. So the shoulda, woulda, coulda's about Lin and the Knicks seem unnecessary for me. Lin and Felton are better off now than they would be if they switched places. This obviously isn't aimed at you, just a general thought.
The thing with Felton which has always been my issue with him is that he thinks he is a great shooter which he isn't. So when defense give him the room to shoot when felton would be wise to drive. But when felton does drive he doesn't finish well but Tyson is usually there to clean it up. Felton should be averaging a lot more assists than Lin (thus far they are tied ) considering the talent level on the Knicks in comparison to the Rockets.
Eh, I think Felton's assists are just fine. Considering the slow pace, Melo as the focal point specifically in the post and J-Kidd/JR providing playmaking at times when he's in...it should be no surprise that he's not getting Nash numbers with the talent he's surrounded by. I agree that he settles for his jumper too often when guys go under screens but you learn to appreciate the nuances of his PnR game when you watch J-Kidd and Prigioni struggle to create out of it against certain defensive schemes. If he ever figures out how to make that floater drop, his numbers will jump a level.
But he isn't Felton shoots way to much. Hopefully with amare back when felton returns he will shoot less & pass more I personally think that is when he is at his best.
Yeah, I've had confidence that Felton's FGA's would go down when Amare returned all along. Without Stat the team only had three players who could create for themselves, so Felton taking that many attempts made sense (I'd prefer 14 or 15 but 16 isn't outrageous from a third option). It remains to be seen, but I expect his FGA's to drop to around 12 or 13 a game when Amare is in place if not even lower. At that point, we should see his efficiency improve and a slight boost in assists. This is all projection though.