Update: Shams says NY/Utah have began trade discussions for Donovan Mitchell part 3

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The didn’t win a ring so it’s a failure. Plus my opinion doesn’t matter, it was the Knicks wanted to and did re-resign Randle so you should worry about their takes more than me!

I’m still glad we have Randle just because I personally like him. Has f all to do with unbiased attempt at team building

They're closer to winning a title than we have been in 20+ years, they are a contender with 24 and 25 year old players, they don't have to rely on free agency to fill out the rest of their team, they don't have to worry about whether or not some other team has their next 6 draft picks.


You endorsed it because you thought it was a good move and would help, just like you think this trade would be good.

sorry but they aren’t a real contender, Tatum got exposed as a fraud in the finals. He’s as a second option at best. They don’t have a Batman. Very sad

I still do endorse it, I’m glad Randle is here, if he wasn’t we’d be tanking instead of building a great team like I wanted to do. They are doing roughly what I wanted so I’m happy

I am insulted that you think I would take this bait, we have done this tango far too often rob.

By the way, if they trade IQ, we're left with one Kentucky guy on the team and his clock will be ticking. Oh the joyous day when you look up and there's no more Kentucky scum on this team, we're so close.

[god shammgod]

The didn’t win a ring so it’s a failure. Plus my opinion doesn’t matter, it was the Knicks wanted to and did re-resign Randle so you should worry about their takes more than me!

I’m still glad we have Randle just because I personally like him. Has f all to do with unbiased attempt at team building

They're closer to winning a title than we have been in 20+ years, they are a contender with 24 and 25 year old players, they don't have to rely on free agency to fill out the rest of their team, they don't have to worry about whether or not some other team has their next 6 draft picks.


You endorsed it because you thought it was a good move and would help, just like you think this trade would be good.

sorry but they aren’t a real contender, Tatum got exposed as a fraud in the finals. He’s as a second option at best. They don’t have a Batman. Very sad

I still do endorse it, I’m glad Randle is here, if he wasn’t we’d be tanking instead of building a great team like I wanted to do. They are doing roughly what I wanted so I’m happy

they definitely aint making it to the finals last year if the bucks are healthy

[sol537]

Leon Rose ain't no chump... we're gonna pay a price, for sure, but it won't be the crazy ask we've been seeing floated around.

[mpharris36]

It was more of a win immediately plan with a lot in mediocre veteran players or free agents. They only bottomed out for 1 year which wasn’t enough. They did do a better job of drafting and getting some future picks, but the purpose was to make a move for a star.

I'm going to ask for a straight yes or no: Are the Knicks in position today to trade for a star because of the draft?

God knows I wish IQ, Obi and Grimes played more and Randle, Burks and Fournier played less, but it is a bit overblown that the Knicks don't care about their kids or value the draft.

Thibs doesn't care about the kids, and that is its own issue, but this FO has built a young core that everyone wants to see more of and a warchest of picks.

Even if the preference for some is to run this franchise like the Thunder, the Knicks used the draft in prominent, but strategically different way.

They are in position for a star, and that is a good thing. But i would not call trading picks and young players building thru the draft. Not to compare straight, but they used draft picks or drafted players in the past to trade for players (McDyess, Curry, Marbury, Melo, Steve Francis, Bargs, etc) and that def wasn’t building thru the draft. It can still work out, just something different.

I will give them credit though for doing more in the draft. And Mitch and RJ might stick around for awhile. It’s a different plan though to mindfully bottom out, get a bunch of picks, and be more youth forward then trying to compete with vets and set up to trade for a star.

But hopefully this plan works out. There are multiple ways to build that can work

and mitch and RJ isn't even this regime.

[ForeverRDjazz]

Knicks will absolutely give up 5 picks...they don't want to give up 6 picks with Grimes/Obi/IQ. If Obi and IQ aren't in the deal the knicks will give 5 picks.

And why wouldn't the jazz want to move off of Conley's 20+ million for nothing next year? Conley doesn't have a huge market at that price point...and no they can't move conley for picks anytime they wanted. Who is banging down the door for a soon to be 35 year old PG that makes over 20 MM?

They would buy out westbrook. AInge wants picks and he wants to tank and then he moves extra money off the books next year so he books are totally clean. This is exactly what Ainge wants...expiring contracts, a ton of future unprotected picks, and he gets Grimes with Shams stated was a player they are interest in.

I think Lakers and couple other teams have talked about Conley this year but I believe Jazz owner and Conley are really close and want to keep him here. Conley most likely have a job with the Jazz after playing ball. I'd take young players and picks but nothing to do with Westbrook. Surprise when I read Leon backed out with only 3 picks on the table. If that's true a Mitchell knicks deal will never happen.

I think you mixing up your reports Leon reportedly backed out of the following

Grimes
IQ
Obi
McBride
+6 1st rounders

That is what shams and your reporter tony said after talks Tuesday.

The Mitchell Robinson and 3 1st rounders is from our guy begley...he is not a trust worthy source.

Also Conley may be close but you think he wants to spend his last couple of years on a tanking team?

Do you think Signing Bronson was so they could land Mitchell? I don't think Leon ever wanted or thought about landing Mitchell. I think Conley is living a great life and doesn't have to have a ring to keep on living a great life. And life after basketball is also important. Front office job would also be nice for Conley. He can help groom the new guys Utah brings in.

[Obi-One]

Why should the Heat only need to give up their 3 picks and Herro but we need to give 6 and 3 young pieces? Windhorst is a troll

[KnicksNext]

where does ainge go from here (there is no other team that can come close to that package)...talks aren't dead but sometimes you have to walk away to get the price to be lower.

The problem with this line of thinking is that Ainge doesn't have to deal Mitchell. This is not a KD situation. He can also pull the deal off the table. Just give Ainge what he wants and let's go for it.

You're a horrible negotiator lmao

We'll see what the package ultimately ends up being. You pay for stars in this league and we're dealing with Ainge. I'm just being a realist. If you want to play hard ball Ainge might just trade Mitchell to the Pels. This is not the time to play hard ball considering we might not get a shot for another top 25 player for years. Pull the trigger.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Why should the Heat only need to give up their 3 picks and Herro but we need to give 6 and 3 young pieces? Windhorst is a troll

Because we're thirsty.

Same reason the Lakers gave up basically everything for Davis while bidding against nobody else.

[8516knicks]

It's a lot easier to do at the top of the draft.

They never had intention of going for the cades/suggs/ivey types and being bad enough to draft them. They treat draft capital as trade capital. Thats my point. They are drafting role players...that doesn't mean they are building through the draft.

They are setting themselves up to make a trade. My point is they aren't all of a sudden going to be bad enough to make those picks good enough to draft a star. The plan was always to trade for one with the combination of young role players and picks.

What has a higher rate of success when it comes to getting a star? Drafting a kid and hoping he becomes one or trading for one that is already proven?

I'd argue that there are pros and cons to each, but purely in terms of getting a return on investment (a totally lost and abysmal season vs trade assets) the proven star has the higher hit rate.

The fact that they drafted role players, so that means they aren't building through the draft rings a bit hollow. 95% of every NBA draft are role players (if they even manage to stick in the league).

The Knicks have over half the active roster as young guys and they are fighting to keep those guys out of a Mitchell trade. They must value them to a degree that is significant.

Yes, the plan was always to be competitive while accumulating assets. Part of being competitive was drafting well.

If you are only willing to tank for 1 year each regime like the knicks then its probably easier to find a star via trade (if that star wants to come to your city). If you are willing to be bad for a 3 year window and shoot your shot multiple times then I think its just easier to draft your star...but the knicks are never committed to that process.

Picking in the late teens or 20's isn't building a team through the draft in my eyes. Its just like saying right now teams like DET, OKC, HOU, ORL all have more young talent then us right now because they committed to being bad. We are comitted to trading for a star which is why I think Leon is kinda in a position to have to do this deal...where else is he going for a start that wants to come to NY?

Oh and Spida is 25 years old...so he fits the brunson/rj timeline.

They'll probably do the trade if we don't get fleeced SO bad. And for a time we'll be jazzed. Till the reality of two 6'1" guards in the backcourt while still stuck with Randle kicks in. People will get their brand new KNICK Mitchell jerseys. Party like it's 2013. Then Atlanta will knock us out of the 2nd round in 5 games and we'll be here moaning we should have kept those 2023 draft picks as someone like the KINGS snags the next Halliburton or SGA or Mikal Bridges while we covet the next Trevor Keels.

[nedleeds]

Leon Rose ain't no chump

He signed 5 negative value contracts. Then had to give up assets to get rid of the bad contracts he signed to make room to sign his kids client so they can milk Dolan.

Anyone who thinks he's competent is the real chump.

[dakomish23]

Please tell me when I said I wouldn't trade Frank and Knox for Anthony Davis, one of my favorite basketball players of all time.

Speaking of being humble, you're so desperate to be right after being wrong so often that you're literally making **** up. Sad and pathetic outcome CB. Sad and pathetic.

It was a question. Maybe your tiny brain cannot process the meaning of a question mark.

So first things first, what have I been wrong about with regards to the Knicks? Not saying I've always been right, but go ahead and list the things I have been wrong about. Not that I care.

You were wrong about the following:
- KP
- Frank
- Knox
- 2/3rds wrong about Randle

I don't value people with unresolved anger issues who call others sad and pathetic online. But I also understand that there's often a lot of self-projection when people angrily cast aspersions like you do. I would also be tight and frustrated if I were constantly wrong about every young player on the Knicks.

You made the accusation. I called you out on it. Now you're pretending "I was just asking a question"

Holy **** that is weak

I wasn't wrong about KP. He was an all star. He didn't even finish his rookie contract here and we got a good haul for him. He was so bad that we got that haul for him?

Knox? Me??? I was super high on Knox???? Just another example of you needing to lie.

You bashed Randle in 19-20, then you were worshipping Randle during 20-21. Prisoner of the moment.

On top of that you hopped on the RJ bandwagon. So much so that you were praising RJ on the general board. Prisoner of the moment.

Then in typical prisoner of the moment fashion, you went out on Randle & RJ after the ATL series. Then every time this season they had good stretches you tried to joke it off "see he saw what I said that's why he's doing well".

You called Obi a bust a 1000x his rookie year. Now as always you like Obi. Who couldn't see that coming. Typical casual fan who's a prisoner of the moment.

This is a message board not something serious in life and you still can't find the fortitude to stand by your claims here without flip flopping?

Damn homey, that's weak AF.

[8516knicks]

Leon Rose ain't no chump

He signed 5 negative value contracts. Then had to give up assets to get rid of the bad contracts he signed to make room to sign his kids client so they can milk Dolan.

Sounds like a HOF Knick executive!

[EricAnderson]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=-Iv3S1c5umIps5M2aRz2oQ

Dominique is right. Judge would be huge if this was 30 years ago but baseball is for old men now. Unless the QB of the giants or jets become mvp candidates, it’s the basketball star in New York. Mad Dog probably blew his load again today after Domo said that.

No he’s not baseball isn’t big nationally but locally it is especially in certain markets NYC being one of them.

Yankees are always a huge topic in NYC and so are the Mets when they are good

[robillionaire]

They're closer to winning a title than we have been in 20+ years, they are a contender with 24 and 25 year old players, they don't have to rely on free agency to fill out the rest of their team, they don't have to worry about whether or not some other team has their next 6 draft picks.


You endorsed it because you thought it was a good move and would help, just like you think this trade would be good.

sorry but they aren’t a real contender, Tatum got exposed as a fraud in the finals. He’s as a second option at best. They don’t have a Batman. Very sad

I still do endorse it, I’m glad Randle is here, if he wasn’t we’d be tanking instead of building a great team like I wanted to do. They are doing roughly what I wanted so I’m happy

I am insulted that you think I would take this bait, we have done this tango far too often rob.

By the way, if they trade IQ, we're left with one Kentucky guy on the team and his clock will be ticking. Oh the joyous day when you look up and there's no more Kentucky scum on this team, we're so close.

Still got the cornerstone! You were hedging about him bouncing back last week because of take fouls. Now the calvary is coming to help so no more double teams. He took the best punch this fanbase could throw to get rid of him and stood his ground. Now dopey is going to Utah. Get fully invested and buy Randlecoin now

[nedleeds]

Stretching is waiving and dividing the cap hit over 2 x remaining years + 1. Learn NBA cap kindergarten edition and then come back to give your input.

You can not waive a player and stretch his salary at a later moment. You have to stretch on the following day of waiving.

Can a team choose to stretch a waived player’s contract retroactively? https://www.slamonline.com/nba/cba-explained-the-stretch-provision/
No. Teams must inform the league of their intent to stretch a waived player within one business day of the formal termination.

Yes. And you take the remaining salary and divide it as above. Welcome to 1st grade. There was no reason to stretch Noah as he could be waived at any time and within a day stretched to sign Durant and Kyrie who were never coming here. He was waived and stretched pre-emptively because "culcha" while teams like Memphis with a real front office held their dead money (Parsons) until they knew they could use it best (either in a trade for ballast, or if a FA was in then waive and stretch at that time).

[GONYK]

It's a lot easier to do at the top of the draft.

They never had intention of going for the cades/suggs/ivey types and being bad enough to draft them. They treat draft capital as trade capital. Thats my point. They are drafting role players...that doesn't mean they are building through the draft.

They are setting themselves up to make a trade. My point is they aren't all of a sudden going to be bad enough to make those picks good enough to draft a star. The plan was always to trade for one with the combination of young role players and picks.

What has a higher rate of success when it comes to getting a star? Drafting a kid and hoping he becomes one or trading for one that is already proven?

I'd argue that there are pros and cons to each, but purely in terms of getting a return on investment (a totally lost and abysmal season vs trade assets) the proven star has the higher hit rate.

The fact that they drafted role players, so that means they aren't building through the draft rings a bit hollow. 95% of every NBA draft are role players (if they even manage to stick in the league).

The Knicks have over half the active roster as young guys and they are fighting to keep those guys out of a Mitchell trade. They must value them to a degree that is significant.

Yes, the plan was always to be competitive while accumulating assets. Part of being competitive was drafting well.

If you are only willing to tank for 1 year each regime like the knicks then its probably easier to find a star via trade (if that star wants to come to your city). If you are willing to be bad for a 3 year window and shoot your shot multiple times then I think its just easier to draft your star...but the knicks are never committed to that process.

Picking in the late teens or 20's isn't building a team through the draft in my eyes. Its just like saying right now teams like DET, OKC, HOU, ORL all have more young talent then us right now because they committed to being bad. We are comitted to trading for a star which is why I think Leon is kinda in a position to have to do this deal...where else is he going for a start that wants to come to NY?

Oh and Spida is 25 years old...so he fits the brunson/rj timeline.

Donovan Mitchell isn't my favorite player. Like I said in another thread, I think he's around the 20th best player in the league, but a top 10 scorer.

How many top 4 picks in each draft turn out to be better than Donovan Mitchell?

All of that is beside my larger point though, that the draft was absolutely central to the Knicks strategy, both because they drafted high floor players with easier paths to production and because they had no problem extracting value from picks in the form of trades for more picks.

We can disagree if this is a better way to use the draft (I think it's contextual from team to team), but I am just saying that we would not be in the position we are in today without the draft as the centerpiece of the strategy.

[EricAnderson]

It didn’t turn out fine because they didn’t win a championship. Last year was a fluke season for them and they lost. That’s the logic we would apply to our team so why not apply it to Boston? They aren’t that good and they aren’t winning a championship it’s a treadmill team and they should blow it up to tank

You’re comparing us to a team that made the ECF finals 4 out of 5 years was just up 2-1 in the finals up 9 with 5 minutes to go and was a Curry legendary performance away from going up 3-1 and saying they are a treadmill team ? Lol you can’t be serious.

Tatum and Brown aren’t even in their primes yet there is an excellent chance they win a title or two eventually

Nobody cares about “appearances” they simply are not good enough to win. Fourni3r smoked them twice. Unimpressed.

Whatever man. if you can’t talk logically about the subject there is no point in this discussion lol

Yes Fournier beat them in a meaningless regular game so they weren’t true contenders.

Tremendous logic

[robillionaire]

They're closer to winning a title than we have been in 20+ years, they are a contender with 24 and 25 year old players, they don't have to rely on free agency to fill out the rest of their team, they don't have to worry about whether or not some other team has their next 6 draft picks.


You endorsed it because you thought it was a good move and would help, just like you think this trade would be good.

sorry but they aren’t a real contender, Tatum got exposed as a fraud in the finals. He’s as a second option at best. They don’t have a Batman. Very sad

I still do endorse it, I’m glad Randle is here, if he wasn’t we’d be tanking instead of building a great team like I wanted to do. They are doing roughly what I wanted so I’m happy

they definitely aint making it to the finals last year if the bucks are healthy

They wouldn’t have made it past the heat if Herro didn’t get injured. Most meaningless finals appearance quite possibly in nba history. East staying wide open with no Lebron. Donovan can get there!

[KnicksNext]

Vegas is on board and calling it. It's happening whether some of you like it or not. Maybe by this weekend? I'm guessing they're just ironing out the last details and something will be announced soon.

The NBA trade market moves quickly. According to odds from DraftKings Sportsbook, the New York Knicks have become heavy -200 favorites to land star Utah Jazz guard Donovan Mitchell. The odds shifted in response to recent breaking news from The Athletic.

This represents a steep decline in price. The Knicks’ odds to land Mitchell stood at +350 as late as Wednesday night.

https://www.thelines.com/donovan-mitchell-trade-next-team-odds-knicks-jazz-heat-nets-2022/

[ag3]

Leon Rose ain't no chump

He signed 5 negative value contracts. Then had to give up assets to get rid of the bad contracts he signed to make room to sign his kids client so they can milk Dolan.

He obtained 3 additional picks that will be used to get Mitchell. He didn't trade #11 just for Brunson. Mitchell has been linked to the Knicks for years.

If he lands Mitchell, he essentially traded the #11 pick for Brunson and Mitchell. I will build the statue myself if he pulls this off.