The Next Official All things Frank Ntilikina Thread

[Knicksfan1992]

which is why I have my concerns with both the DSJ and Payton pairings. Both DSJ and Payton need the ball consistently to be effective. And I want the ball mostly in RJ's hands.

i told you i'm team trier & rj

i know, trier can't guard pgs. and frank can't score. it is what it is. you're at a disadvantage one way or the other. it depends who you have more faith in to make a difference. i believe trier hitting open shots is more important than frank's d on point guards. someone in this lineup has to be a great shooter, not just passable. he didn't have the attempts he needs but he has the ability to be great from 3. and someone has to be a legit bailout option. that's him. he'll have to get to respectable on d but i don't think that's impossible.

we both know dennis is starting anyway

There is no reason to believe smith is starting if you believe RJ is starting.

Last season he was paired with a ball dominant wing and he didn’t make it out the season with them .

Also the Mavericks despite ample cap space didn’t attempt to replace him with a similar type of player

They got a shooter(Seth Curry) and a multi positional defender (Delon Wright) they could have easily had a better player who is a playmaker

It’s what the good teams do once they believe the have franchise wings they tend to have pg’s who excel at off the ball contributions whether it’s defense or shooting

What they don’t do is stifle their development by taking the ball from them and give it to a lesser developmental prospect

They only they won’t is if RJ sucks too bad to be given the ball or if smith is so good they decide he’s the future of the franchise.

I find both of those scenarios very unlikely.

The Knicks best guard combo once DSJ came over was DSJ and Trier. Both ball dominant guys. When they shared the floor the Knicks were a +1.7.

The Dallas thing is overblown and also I'm not even sure that I trust that their management knows exactly what it's doing... I wouldn't use their franchise as a model of how to handle young guards either considering Carlisle has had problems with young guards throughout his coaching career.

There's a world where RJ and DSJ can co exist and both be stars in their own right. I don't know why you're exactly assuming that's not possible. Especially if you can get a low usage 3 and D wing next to them in the backcourt. Dotson, potentially Knox, Frank, all would fit the bill if they can improve on significant areas of their games. And the vets like Bullock and Ellington can fill that role as well.

In a quirky way I like the DSJ/Barrett fit. They're both at their absolute best in transition which should help them both get easy points and naturally quicken our pace which we've desperately needed to do for years. Both can make decent enough reads on offense to create for others and both get to the line at a decently high rate. The key is going to be actually converting those free throws and one of them being at least an average catch and shoot threat so the paint isn't too clogged.

[Clyde_Style]

You think he starts and is our primary playmaker?

Possibly, but it also comes down to what Fizdale implements or wants to emphasize too.

After all, he did lionize Mudiay, presumaby because he got the ball upcourt the quickest, not because he was very good at the game of basketball.

So if DSJr comes back as a legit scorer and he certainly can push it upcourt as well as anyone on the squad, then he may become a pet player.

However, if there is some emphasis on a ball motion offense, then RJ could be a prime beneficiary of that as I can see him being a good system player whose court vision and decision making is utilized.

In the end, it may just boil down to the 2 or 3 guys Fiz wants to be his primary scorers and everyone else can mostly just GTFO and get ready for the offensive board opportunities on their misses.

Short answer: Fiz may be the biggest wildcard in all of this, thus I don't know the answer until I see what he does.

The idea is similar to how the Blazers operated with Lillard/Batum. Batum (RJ) was more of a sets oriented orchestrator and Dame (DSjr/Trier) was the wrecking ball who broke down the defense and went bombs away. Frank can be another Batum.

I do think the grouping of Smith and Zo is a useful way to look at their options, because I expect one or the other to be on the floor most of the time, but are they going to play together much? My guess is probably not, but you never know if Smith and Trier show chemistry (despite the perception they are too high usage to co-exist).

Not sure what Payton's usage is going to be though and we can't discount that, but I'd slot RJ and Frank in similar ways (for now) even if they end being radically different players.

This is more or less what I expect to happen:

If RJ blows up fast, then all bets are off and Fiz would probably organize the roster around him.

If RJ falters, then this becomes a scramble for minutes as Fiz figures out his rotations.

The bottom line: The three I expect to get solid minutes early on are RJ, DSJr & Zo because they are players the franchise has bet on so they have to give them some run (I consider Zo being a bet now because they committed to him after being an UDF and he is the best creator so far).

I don't have any backcourt predictions for Frank, Dotson or Ellington, because the franchise's stake is in those three first and they're going to see how they pan out to decide who among the rest gets time.

Payton should play decent minutes in the beginning, but that could go up or down depending on how the key three play and if the club gives Frank a shot this time. I don't expect to see Allen back unless it is in Westchester. He regressed too much in SL.

And lastly, you can't count out Payton as a factor if he levels up. They have a +1 deal so they could retain him if he excels and even extend him if he proves he is the best PG in the bunch. Therefore, there is still a good deal of auditioning for the future going on. The one thing we will not lack is drama, because there is so much competition.

In sum, RJ, Trier & DSJr are going to be given playing time to prove themselves and Payton has a medium sized window to force himself into the long-term equations. It is possible Frank may not even play.

My opening night prediction:

RJ/DSJr are the Starters
Zo/EP are the 2nd unit

[DOT]

i told you i'm team trier & rj

i know, trier can't guard pgs. and frank can't score. it is what it is. you're at a disadvantage one way or the other. it depends who you have more faith in to make a difference. i believe trier hitting open shots is more important than frank's d on point guards. someone in this lineup has to be a great shooter, not just passable. he didn't have the attempts he needs but he has the ability to be great from 3. and someone has to be a legit bailout option. that's him. he'll have to get to respectable on d but i don't think that's impossible.

we both know dennis is starting anyway

There is no reason to believe smith is starting if you believe RJ is starting.

Last season he was paired with a ball dominant wing and he didn’t make it out the season with them .

Also the Mavericks despite ample cap space didn’t attempt to replace him with a similar type of player

They got a shooter(Seth Curry) and a multi positional defender (Delon Wright) they could have easily had a better player who is a playmaker

It’s what the good teams do once they believe the have franchise wings they tend to have pg’s who excel at off the ball contributions whether it’s defense or shooting

What they don’t do is stifle their development by taking the ball from them and give it to a lesser developmental prospect

They only they won’t is if RJ sucks too bad to be given the ball or if smith is so good they decide he’s the future of the franchise.

I find both of those scenarios very unlikely.

The Knicks best guard combo once DSJ came over was DSJ and Trier. Both ball dominant guys. When they shared the floor the Knicks were a +1.7.

The Dallas thing is overblown and also I'm not even sure that I trust that their management knows exactly what it's doing... I wouldn't use their franchise as a model of how to handle young guards either considering Carlisle has had problems with young guards throughout his coaching career.

There's a world where RJ and DSJ can co exist and both be stars in their own right. I don't know why you're exactly assuming that's not possible. Especially if you can get a low usage 3 and D wing next to them in the backcourt. Dotson, potentially Knox, Frank, all would fit the bill if they can improve on significant areas of their games. And the vets like Bullock and Ellington can fill that role as well.

In a quirky way I like the DSJ/Barrett fit. They're both at their absolute best in transition which should help them both get easy points and naturally quicken our pace which we've desperately needed to do for years. Both can make decent enough reads on offense to create for others and both get to the line at a decently high rate. The key is going to be actually converting those free throws and one of them being at least an average catch and shoot threat so the paint isn't too clogged.

The big difference between Trier and RJ is that Trier is a good shooter, where RJ is unproven

Really, that's all it comes down to. I believe our best potential lineup would be DSJ/Frank/RJ, but really none of those three are good shooters. So they just need to learn to shoot. Frank should be a better fit than Dot, because he's a much better passer, but if he doesn't get his shot down, a Dot type would work fine. I put Knox as a 4, I don't think he's gonna be able to play D well enough at the 3 to be there full time

In the modern NBA, you need multiple guys who can create shots, both for themselves and others, so DSJ/RJ should be what we need. Again, provided their shooting improves.

[3toheadmelo]

If DSJ jumper is legit, he should have no problem with RJ.

Here’s a preview of whats to come...

That's college, son. Now, he's playing against grown men.

Lol you’ll come around on RJ eventually. I was one of his biggest critics throughout the college season but he won me over.

I do agree with you however that he isn’t/shouldn’t be the primary facilitator. Our best bet right now imo is DSJ. If DSJ shows little to no improvement this season, expect the Knicks to target Cole Anthony/RJ Hampton/Theo Maledon in next years draft.

[god shammgod]

If DSJ jumper is legit, he should have no problem with RJ.

Here’s a preview of whats to come...

That's college, son. Now, he's playing against grown men.

Lol you’ll come around on RJ eventually. I was one of his biggest critics throughout the college season but he won me over.

I do agree with you however that he isn’t/shouldn’t be the primary facilitator. Our best bet right now imo is DSJ. If DSJ shows little to no improvement this season, expect the Knicks to target Cole Anthony/RJ Hampton/Theo Maledon in next years draft.

you don't say

[HarthorneWingo]

Possibly, but it also comes down to what Fizdale implements or wants to emphasize too.

After all, he did lionize Mudiay, presumaby because he got the ball upcourt the quickest, not because he was very good at the game of basketball.

So if DSJr comes back as a legit scorer and he certainly can push it upcourt as well as anyone on the squad, then he may become a pet player.

However, if there is some emphasis on a ball motion offense, then RJ could be a prime beneficiary of that as I can see him being a good system player whose court vision and decision making is utilized.

In the end, it may just boil down to the 2 or 3 guys Fiz wants to be his primary scorers and everyone else can mostly just GTFO and get ready for the offensive board opportunities on their misses.

Short answer: Fiz may be the biggest wildcard in all of this, thus I don't know the answer until I see what he does.

The idea is similar to how the Blazers operated with Lillard/Batum. Batum (RJ) was more of a sets oriented orchestrator and Dame (DSjr/Trier) was the wrecking ball who broke down the defense and went bombs away. Frank can be another Batum.

I do think the grouping of Smith and Zo is a useful way to look at their options, because I expect one or the other to be on the floor most of the time, but are they going to play together much? My guess is probably not, but you never know if Smith and Trier show chemistry (despite the perception they are too high usage to co-exist).

Not sure what Payton's usage is going to be though and we can't discount that, but I'd slot RJ and Frank in similar ways (for now) even if they end being radically different players.

This is more or less what I expect to happen:

If RJ blows up fast, then all bets are off and Fiz would probably organize the roster around him.

If RJ falters, then this becomes a scramble for minutes as Fiz figures out his rotations.

The bottom line: The three I expect to get solid minutes early on are RJ, DSJr & Zo because they are players the franchise has bet on so they have to give them some run (I consider Zo being a bet now because they committed to him after being an UDF and he is the best creator so far).

I don't have any backcourt predictions for Frank, Dotson or Ellington, because the franchise's stake is in those three first and they're going to see how they pan out to decide who among the rest gets time.

Payton should play decent minutes in the beginning, but that could go up or down depending on how the key three play and if the club gives Frank a shot this time. I don't expect to see Allen back unless it is in Westchester. He regressed too much in SL.

And lastly, you can't count out Payton as a factor if he levels up. They have a +1 deal so they could retain him if he excels and even extend him if he proves he is the best PG in the bunch. Therefore, there is still a good deal of auditioning for the future going on. The one thing we will not lack is drama, because there is so much competition.

In sum, RJ, Trier & DSJr are going to be given playing time to prove themselves and Payton has a medium sized window to force himself into the long-term equations. It is possible Frank may not even play.

My opening night prediction:

RJ/DSJr are the Starters
Zo/EP are the 2nd unit

No one - EXCEPT MOI - got any love for Dot anymore?

[3toheadmelo]

That's college, son. Now, he's playing against grown men.

Lol you’ll come around on RJ eventually. I was one of his biggest critics throughout the college season but he won me over.

I do agree with you however that he isn’t/shouldn’t be the primary facilitator. Our best bet right now imo is DSJ. If DSJ shows little to no improvement this season, expect the Knicks to target Cole Anthony/RJ Hampton/Theo Maledon in next years draft.

you don't say

[br7knicks]

Watch on YouTube

why did frank make a few shots and then immediately get up on the opposing player to play defense? is that good basketball? it can't be, because he's so bad at basketball.

why did he pass so much, and smart passes, too? he should've shot it, instead, about 13 more times.that can't be good basketball, either.


hopefully the knicks trade him. frank seems too smart, with good instincts, with too good of defense to be on the knicks

I'm beginning to suspect you and Buzz are working together

[Clyde_Style]

The idea is similar to how the Blazers operated with Lillard/Batum. Batum (RJ) was more of a sets oriented orchestrator and Dame (DSjr/Trier) was the wrecking ball who broke down the defense and went bombs away. Frank can be another Batum.

I do think the grouping of Smith and Zo is a useful way to look at their options, because I expect one or the other to be on the floor most of the time, but are they going to play together much? My guess is probably not, but you never know if Smith and Trier show chemistry (despite the perception they are too high usage to co-exist).

Not sure what Payton's usage is going to be though and we can't discount that, but I'd slot RJ and Frank in similar ways (for now) even if they end being radically different players.

This is more or less what I expect to happen:

If RJ blows up fast, then all bets are off and Fiz would probably organize the roster around him.

If RJ falters, then this becomes a scramble for minutes as Fiz figures out his rotations.

The bottom line: The three I expect to get solid minutes early on are RJ, DSJr & Zo because they are players the franchise has bet on so they have to give them some run (I consider Zo being a bet now because they committed to him after being an UDF and he is the best creator so far).

I don't have any backcourt predictions for Frank, Dotson or Ellington, because the franchise's stake is in those three first and they're going to see how they pan out to decide who among the rest gets time.

Payton should play decent minutes in the beginning, but that could go up or down depending on how the key three play and if the club gives Frank a shot this time. I don't expect to see Allen back unless it is in Westchester. He regressed too much in SL.

And lastly, you can't count out Payton as a factor if he levels up. They have a +1 deal so they could retain him if he excels and even extend him if he proves he is the best PG in the bunch. Therefore, there is still a good deal of auditioning for the future going on. The one thing we will not lack is drama, because there is so much competition.

In sum, RJ, Trier & DSJr are going to be given playing time to prove themselves and Payton has a medium sized window to force himself into the long-term equations. It is possible Frank may not even play.

My opening night prediction:

RJ/DSJr are the Starters
Zo/EP are the 2nd unit

No one - EXCEPT MOI - got any love for Dot anymore?

I like Dot as much as you do probably, but he's coming off surgery and, as I said, the franchise put its bets on RJ, DSJr and Trier and Payton will also play, so he's going to have to scrap for minutes or be ready when someone goes down.

His best chance may actually be when Fiz runs a small ball line-up with three guards on the floor.

[Clyde Frazier]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

[br7knicks]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

why do you speak too much sense?


i mean hell, frank is better than tony and roberson as shooters, easily, and still brings something more to the table in that he CAN handle the ball, and be a play maker.


need to stop seeing him as a "PG." he's a defensive specialist who can do a bunch of other things, things allen and roberson CANNOT do. and he's 21.


yet people here want to get rid of him?

[DOT]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

Frank's shot isn't nearly as bad as some people say

If you remove both Novembers, his career 3pt% would be 34%. Which is league average. He just shoots so terribly in November (18% combined) that it drags down what would otherwise be solid shooting to bad

That's why I don't like the Allen and Roberson comps, cause Frank's shot is significantly better than theirs, and he's still younger than both were when they came into the league.

[Besart19]

Smith / Trier / Payton / Allen
Frank / Wayne / Dotson
Barrett / Knox / Bullock
Randle / Morris / Iggy
Mitch / Portis / Gibson / Wooten

[Clyde_Style]

Frank is more likely to become a 40% 3 point shooter than most players in the league. His stroke is just fine. It's all mental with him (at least when it comes to shooting from downtown).

And when he does shoot that well, he'll at minimum be that 3&D guy people say they want (plus some other things).

If he fixes his mindset he'll be impactful. If he doesn't, then que sera sera.

I just hope that he's still a Knick when that happens.

[Clyde Frazier]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

Frank's shot isn't nearly as bad as some people say

If you remove both Novembers, his career 3pt% would be 34%. Which is league average. He just shoots so terribly in November (18% combined) that it drags down what would otherwise be solid shooting to bad

That's why I don't like the Allen and Roberson comps, cause Frank's shot is significantly better than theirs, and he's still younger than both were when they came into the league.

Right, my point was using them as a baseline. Fans constantly talking about how he can't be on the floor if he can't shoot. Well, there are 2 great defensive guard/wings who prove that statement wrong. Meanwhile, he's a better playmaker than both and his shot doesn't look broken at all. I don't have a ton of confidence in fiz seeing the light, but I'd love him to prove me wrong.

[br7knicks]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

Frank's shot isn't nearly as bad as some people say

If you remove both Novembers, his career 3pt% would be 34%. Which is league average. He just shoots so terribly in November (18% combined) that it drags down what would otherwise be solid shooting to bad

That's why I don't like the Allen and Roberson comps, cause Frank's shot is significantly better than theirs, and he's still younger than both were when they came into the league.

Right, my point was using them as a baseline. Fans constantly talking about how he can't be on the floor if he can't shoot. Well, there are 2 great defensive guard/wings who prove that statement wrong. Meanwhile, he's a better playmaker than both and his shot doesn't look broken at all. I don't have a ton of confidence in fiz seeing the light, but I'd love him to prove me wrong.

those of us using the roberson and allen comparisons were spot on, because we were talking about their level of defense, and potential. we were just saying that he has their potential, defensively, but also brings more potential from 3.

so the roberson and allen comparisons were pretty good, since we talked about them defensively.

[Clyde_Style]

The main thing I see about Frank is any player who loves playing defense that much has some fire in him.

If he develops his offensive game to the point of having a couple of go to moves that fire can emerge on the other side of the floor too.

[MaseInYourFace]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

Frank's shot isn't nearly as bad as some people say

If you remove both Novembers, his career 3pt% would be 34%. Which is league average. He just shoots so terribly in November (18% combined) that it drags down what would otherwise be solid shooting to bad

That's why I don't like the Allen and Roberson comps, cause Frank's shot is significantly better than theirs, and he's still younger than both were when they came into the league.

Not to mention that it’s probably not the best mold to follow in today’s nba.

[DOT]

::screams from the rooftops::

If Tony Allen and Roberson can have roles on winning teams, there's no reason Frank can't have that on the Knicks. And this idea that there's no way he can't improve his three-point shot is dumb. If he does improve 3-point shot and eventually hits league-average, that's a great player to have. At the very least I'm encouraged by what I buy what I see in FIBA play.

Of course, then reality sets in and you remember that last season was a waste for Frank's development. Between fiz giving him the shortest leash out of any young player on the roster and the injuries, I don't have a ton of hope for Frank getting consistent minutes this season. I fear he ends up helping another team down the line instead of the Knicks.

Frank's shot isn't nearly as bad as some people say

If you remove both Novembers, his career 3pt% would be 34%. Which is league average. He just shoots so terribly in November (18% combined) that it drags down what would otherwise be solid shooting to bad

That's why I don't like the Allen and Roberson comps, cause Frank's shot is significantly better than theirs, and he's still younger than both were when they came into the league.

Not to mention that it’s probably not the best mold to follow in today’s nba.

Yeah, I don't think you can really get by just by being defense only, you do have to at some point develop a 3 pointer

I think you have to look at a guy like Marcus Smart instead of Allen or Roberson. Because for his first 4 years, he really wasn't that much better than Frank offensively. Dude shot 36/29/76 over his first 4 years (year 2 for him was 35/25/78, compared to Frank's 34/29/77 his 2nd year), and Smart was picked 6th overall. But the Celtics kept him and developed him and this year he shot 42/36/81. Not world beating numbers, but good enough that he started and contributed on a competitive team

All Frank has to do is get his shot down to where it's consistently in the 35-37% range, and he's a starter on a good team. A role player, but still a contributor. Let DSJ/RJ handle the ball and do the scoring (along with Knox), and just move the ball, hit open shots, and play defense

[BBALLER4FR]

rj will be the facilitator. he has the best instincts and vision of all the guards.

That's funny, because in college they said he's a high-volume scorer (see, Carmelo Anthony)

What happens when the guy guarding him backs off because RJ can't shoot to keep him honest?

He'll do a little of this!

Watch on YouTube

All of those passes won't get talked about. Let Frank do 2 of those (and nothing more) in a game and some folks are good. "Makes the right pass" etc, etc. That RJ video would have grease pen markings and in-depth breakdown if he wore #11, I swear.