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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#181 » by suicidedeuce » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:36 am

ORANGEandBLUE wrote:Is there any chance that Lebron will sign a one-year contract in 2014?

I am vaguely aware of MJ signing several one-year contracts. Is there any reason to suppose Lebron would or wouldn't do the same thing? Was there some benefit that is no longer available in the new CBA?


With who, the Knicks? Or Miami.

He already effectively has one year deals with the Heat in 2014-2015 and again in 15-16 with his PO and ETO.

As for benefot of signing one year deals with another, can't think of a current benefit, no.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#182 » by kosmovitelli » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:19 pm

ORANGEandBLUE wrote:Is there any chance that Lebron will sign a one-year contract in 2014?

I am vaguely aware of MJ signing several one-year contracts. Is there any reason to suppose Lebron would or wouldn't do the same thing? Was there some benefit that is no longer available in the new CBA?


MJ signed two one-year contracts in 1996-1997 and 1997-1998 because his original contract expired in 1996. He was 33 at the time (in 1996) and didn't trust the Jerrys (Bulls GM Jerry Krause and owner Jerry Reinsdorf). Signing one-year deals was a way for him to have flexibility and leverage. MJ made it clear he wanted to finish his career with Pippen and Krause wanted to trade Pippen (and rebuild on the fly) after Toni Kukoc emerged as a potential star. Krause even had an agreement with Vancouver on draft night 1997 (Pippen for the Grizzlies lottery pick and JK wanted to select Tracy McGrady with that pick) but he backed out when MJ threatened to retire if Pippen was traded. Pippen remained with the Bulls for his final season and MJ signed another one-year contract. In 1998, after the lockout, Pippen became a free agent and as the Bulls had no plans to resign him, MJ decided to retire and Pippen was signed and traded to the Rockets...
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#183 » by Fury » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:55 pm

kosmovitelli wrote:
ORANGEandBLUE wrote:Is there any chance that Lebron will sign a one-year contract in 2014?

I am vaguely aware of MJ signing several one-year contracts. Is there any reason to suppose Lebron would or wouldn't do the same thing? Was there some benefit that is no longer available in the new CBA?


MJ signed two one-year contracts in 1996-1997 and 1997-1998 because his original contract expired in 1996. He was 33 at the time (in 1996) and didn't trust the Jerrys (Bulls GM Jerry Krause and owner Jerry Reinsdorf). Signing one-year deals was a way for him to have flexibility and leverage. MJ made it clear he wanted to finish his career with Pippen and Krause wanted to trade Pippen (and rebuild on the fly) after Toni Kukoc emerged as a potential star. Krause even had an agreement with Vancouver on draft night 1997 (Pippen for the Grizzlies lottery pick and JK wanted to select Tracy McGrady with that pick) but he backed out when MJ threatened to retire if Pippen was traded. Pippen remained with the Bulls for his final season and MJ signed another one-year contract. In 1998, after the lockout, Pippen became a free agent and as the Bulls had no plans to resign him, MJ decided to retire and Pippen was signed and traded to the Rockets...


Was Jordan going to come back if Pippen re-signed in Chicago?
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#184 » by kosmovitelli » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:10 pm

Fury wrote:Was Jordan going to come back if Pippen re-signed in Chicago?


Probably. If Phil Jackson and Rodman also re-upped. In 1998, the contracts of MJ, Pippen, Rodman and Phil Jackson all expired at the same time. I think MJ would have returned for one or two more seasons if Phil Jackson, Pippen and Rodman resigned with the team. Problem is MJ, Pippen and Jackson hated Bulls manager Jerry Krause so something had to give. In the end, it was up to owner Jerry Reinsdorf to fire Krause and hire a new GM instead of letting MJ, Pippen and Jackson leave the team. Krause was so full of himself, he once said "players and coaches don't win championships, organizations win championships', that's why he wanted so much to rebuild and prove he could do it again without MJ or Phil Jackson and he failed miserably...
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#185 » by Fury » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:06 pm

kosmovitelli wrote:
Fury wrote:Was Jordan going to come back if Pippen re-signed in Chicago?


Probably. If Phil Jackson and Rodman also re-upped. In 1998, the contracts of MJ, Pippen, Rodman and Phil Jackson all expired at the same time. I think MJ would have returned for one or two more seasons if Phil Jackson, Pippen and Rodman resigned with the team. Problem is MJ, Pippen and Jackson hated Bulls manager Jerry Krause so something had to give. In the end, it was up to owner Jerry Reinsdorf to fire Krause and hire a new GM instead of letting MJ, Pippen and Jackson leave the team. Krause was so full of himself, he once said "players and coaches don't win championships, organizations win championships', that's why he wanted so much to rebuild and prove he could do it again without MJ or Phil Jackson and he failed miserably...


Wow. What a moron. Would have been cool to see Jordan vs. the Lakers.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#186 » by Capn'O » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:56 pm

Don't know if this has already been answered but:

If a player is amnestied and then reacquired at a lesser cost.

A) Can you trade that player?
B) At which value - the amnestied value or the value to the current team?
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#187 » by kosmovitelli » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:09 pm

Capn'O wrote:Don't know if this has already been answered but:

If a player is amnestied and then reacquired at a lesser cost.

A) Can you trade that player?
B) At which value - the amnestied value or the value to the current team?


When a player is amnestied, he cannot be reacquired (by his previous team) for the length of the terminated contract.
The claiming team (the team acquring the player) cannot trade the player until july 1 (as the amnesty provision is available only for the first seven days following the July moratorium, it means the claiming team has to keep the player at least for one full season).
For trade purposes, if the team acquired the player via a partial waiver claim (a bid for less than the player's original salary) then :
- his new salary is charged against the team's salary cap
- his new salary will be used when comparing salaries in trades
- his previous salary will be used when he becomes a free agent (or eligible for an extension), it will impact both his cap hold and his new salary.

With Luis Scola, I will illustrate that. Luis Scola was amnestied by the Houston Rockets in july 2012.
At the time, he had three years remaining on his contract :
2012-2013 : $9,408,207
2013-2014 : $10,224,622
2014-2015 : $11,041,037 (partially guaranteed with incentives)

The Phoenix Suns made a partial waiver claim and had the winning bid.
2012-2013 : $4,148,510
2013-2014 : $4,508,504
2014-2015 : $4,868,499 (only $940,946 guaranteed)

In july, the Suns traded Scola ($4,508,504) to the Pacers for Green ($3,500,000), Plumlee ($1,121,520) and a future first round pick. As you can see, the Suns traded Scola as soon as the window opened for a trade (under CBA rules, they could'nt trade him before july 1, 2013). Now the Pacers are the claiming team and if they let Scola become a free agent in 2015 (if they don't terminate his contract early, because his final season is only guaranteed for $940,946) then his cap hold will be 150% of his previous salary (150% of $11,041,037) and the Pacers will have his full Bird rights and will be in position to offer him a new contract with a starting salary in the min-max range (in other words, up to the maximum salary). Obviously, the Pacers won't offer him the max, it's just an example...
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#188 » by Capn'O » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:28 pm

Kos - thanks as always for that homework!

I've been trying to fully understand the implications of acquiring Bargs via trade v. via the amnesty/waiver process. That helps a lot.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#189 » by old skool » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:14 pm

kosmovitelli wrote:MJ signed two one-year contracts in 1996-1997 and 1997-1998 because his original contract expired in 1996. He was 33 at the time (in 1996) and didn't trust the Jerrys (Bulls GM Jerry Krause and owner Jerry Reinsdorf).


I think there is a little bit of revisionist history there.

1. I don;t know Jordan's state of mind, but he probably trusted Reinsdorf a lot, seeing how Reinsdorf continued to pay his full NBA contract salary while Jordan was playing minor league baseball. Furthermore, Reinsdorf made Jordan's pursuit of baseball possible by setting him up with a roster spot on the Birmingham Barons, a minor league team in Reinsdorf's White Sox minor league system.

2. Reinsdorf offered Jordan a pair of one year $43-million contracts after his baseball hiatus was finished. Reinsdorf never offered to give Jordan a multi-year deal at that price, which was quite understandable.

3. Jordan was not able to play basketball when he "retired" before the 1998-99 season. He had seriously injured himself by cutting off the tip of a finger on his shooting hand with a cigar cutter. He was not able to play.

4. Jackson turned down a contract to coach the Bulls.

5. Jordan and Jackson broke up the team, not Krause or Reinsdorf.

6. Krause's plan to rebuild the Bulls fell apart when the new CBA reduced the advantage that large market teams had in signing away free agents. He had accumulated a lot of cap space, when all of a sudden, free agents were incentivized to resign with the current team. That new rule reduced the number of free agents changing teams, reducing the number of players the Bulls were able to recruit.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#190 » by Nyk4lyfe » Tue Nov 5, 2013 7:12 pm

Hey, I know this has probably been mentioned quite a few times but if Melo opted out this summer and gave him a max contract, does anyone have a rough estimate breakdown of his salaries (preferably by year... if not, then just overall)

Thanks!
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#191 » by seren » Wed Nov 6, 2013 5:08 pm

Nyk4lyfe wrote:Hey, I know this has probably been mentioned quite a few times but if Melo opted out this summer and gave him a max contract, does anyone have a rough estimate breakdown of his salaries (preferably by year... if not, then just overall)

Thanks!


5 Year/129 million starting at 22.5 and increase it by 7.5 percent every year.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#192 » by Nyk4lyfe » Wed Nov 6, 2013 5:19 pm

seren wrote:
Nyk4lyfe wrote:Hey, I know this has probably been mentioned quite a few times but if Melo opted out this summer and gave him a max contract, does anyone have a rough estimate breakdown of his salaries (preferably by year... if not, then just overall)

Thanks!


5 Year/129 million starting at 22.5 and increase it by 7.5 percent every year.


Thanks for the info. So 26 million on average and in the final year a 30 million dollar salary (~50% salary cap) at age 35? Not trying to troll, serious question, anyone else see a problem with that?
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#193 » by moocow007 » Wed Nov 6, 2013 5:37 pm

Nyk4lyfe wrote:
seren wrote:
Nyk4lyfe wrote:Hey, I know this has probably been mentioned quite a few times but if Melo opted out this summer and gave him a max contract, does anyone have a rough estimate breakdown of his salaries (preferably by year... if not, then just overall)

Thanks!


5 Year/129 million starting at 22.5 and increase it by 7.5 percent every year.


Thanks for the info. So 26 million on average and in the final year a 30 million dollar salary (~50% salary cap) at age 35? Not trying to troll, serious question, anyone else see a problem with that?


Every elite player that the Knicks plan on signing at around age 29-30 (depending on when they exited college/HS) will be looking at the roughly the same amount on average. This is not just a Carmelo Anthony phenomenon. Just want to make sure folks aren't getting confused that the Knicks can go sign some other max player (and if Anthony isn't a max player than not many other players are besides the usual suspects...which would be nice...if for the exception that some other team will think those players are and so they will get max) and be expected to pay way less.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#194 » by seren » Fri Nov 8, 2013 7:02 pm

moocow007 wrote:Every elite player that the Knicks plan on signing at around age 29-30 (depending on when they exited college/HS) will be looking at the roughly the same amount on average. This is not just a Carmelo Anthony phenomenon. Just want to make sure folks aren't getting confused that the Knicks can go sign some other max player (and if Anthony isn't a max player than not many other players are besides the usual suspects...which would be nice...if for the exception that some other team will think those players are and so they will get max) and be expected to pay way less.


There has not been a single player that signed a third max extension besides Kobe. He will be the highest paid player at that rate. Kobe will expire and will most likely get a paycut. Bosh/Wade/Lebron trio are not eligible for that kind of extension as they never signed a second max extension. The new max contracts coming up will be subject to the new cap space whatever that is. In that sense, not exactly.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#195 » by MKCATL » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:16 pm

Hypothetically can we Sign and Trade Melo in the offseason? I know there were some rule changes regarding S&T's in the new CBA.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#196 » by moocow007 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:31 pm

MKCATL wrote:Hypothetically can we Sign and Trade Melo in the offseason? I know there were some rule changes regarding S&T's in the new CBA.


If he doesn't pick up his player option (meaning he opts out) then he'd be an unrestricted free agent (with the Knicks holding his full bird rights). So, yeah, he should be tradeable in a sign-and-trade.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#197 » by kosmovitelli » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:16 pm

MKCATL wrote:Hypothetically can we Sign and Trade Melo in the offseason? I know there were some rule changes regarding S&T's in the new CBA.


It's possible but unlikely because contracts signed under the sign and trade provision are now limited to a max of four years and 4.5% raises. Exactly the same conditions a free agent would have without a sign and trade.
Basically if a free agent wants to leave and the other team has cap room then the player can sign as a free agent, no need to pursue a sign and trade for an additional guaranteed season and higher yearly raises. It's no longer possible under current CBA rules.

The new CBA eliminated the possibility of a player keeping his team hostage and forcing them to accept a sign and trade to a team under the cap in order to receive compensation. Under previous CBA rules, teams used to accept one or two draft picks (+ a trade exception) as compensation for a free agent in a sign and trade (Lebron or Bosh for example). Under previous CBA rules, the player could have his cake and eat it too (playing for the team of his choice and getting the max in terms of number of years and annual raises).
Now, technically a player can still be signed and traded to a team under the cap but there's no incentive for the player or the other team, the only real possibility is a sign and trade to a team over the cap (a team with no cap room or not enough cap room and thus no leverage to force the issue).

For example, if Melo wants to play for a team under the cap like the Lakers or another team, he can simply sign there as a free agent (like Dwight did last year with Houston), no need to pursue a sign and trade.
However, let's say Melo wants to win a championship now at all costs and wants to sign with the Spurs (obviously it's highly unlikely but it's just an example) then the only way he can sign with the Spurs is via sign and trade.
Obviously, as sign and trade transactions are limited to four years and 4.5% raises, Melo would need to take less money and I seriously doubt he will do that. So far, money has always been his top priority, that's why (unlike Lebron, Wade and Bosh) he signed a max rookie extension with Denver and didn't have an opt out clause in 2010, that's why he was looking for an extend and trade transaction and had no interest signing with the Knicks as a free agent after the lockout.

Dolan and the Knicks are probably already in panic mode and will give Melo everything he wants.
Melo will dictate the contract. Melo will be offered a max five year contract with 7.5% raises next summer and he will probably sign it.

Just like he did in Denver, Melo will force a trade if he's truly unhappy and wants to win a championship asap. In the end, i doubt he will. He's probably happy in NY and I don't think he's the kind of guy willing to sacrifice everything in order to win a championship, he's just happy playing basketball. And let's face it, even if there was a trade possibility, the Knicks would probably be fleeced...Knicks management showed they cant be trusted, they have no plan, no direction and no clue.

Sadly, it's already too late. Knicks will live and die with Melo for the rest of the decade. They just need to make the most out of it. Problem is free agent signings and trade transactions show current management have no real plan to win a championship with Melo. They just take it year by year and their only goal seem to be making the post-season. And if they can't then at the trade deadline, they'll just use the same formula (quick fixes). There's a so called 2015 plan but if the Knicks are under 0.500 at the trade deadline then they will probably go for a quick fix and pull the trigger on an ill-advised trade to make the headlines and appease the masses.

Same old, same old, Knicks once again traded for an all star player and never tried to assess if they had enough flexibility and assets moving forward to put a championship caliber team on the floor.
When there's no real plan, no direction, you're going to pay the price for it at some point and that's exactly what Knicks management's experiencing right now. They probably wish they still had the amnesty provision available right now. Steve Mills is in familiar territory, he's been there before with his buddy Isiah Thomas. The only real plan at the helm seem to be : hire Isiah's cronies (Glen Grunwald, Steve Mills) as President/GM...
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#198 » by MKCATL » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:45 pm

kosmovitelli wrote:
MKCATL wrote:Hypothetically can we Sign and Trade Melo in the offseason? I know there were some rule changes regarding S&T's in the new CBA.


It's possible but unlikely because contracts signed under the sign and trade provision are now limited to a max of four years and 4.5% raises. Exactly the same conditions a free agent would have without a sign and trade.
Basically if a free agent wants to leave and the other team has cap room then the player can sign as a free agent, no need to pursue a sign and trade for an additional guaranteed season and higher yearly raises. It's no longer possible under current CBA rules.

The new CBA eliminated the possibility of a player keeping his team hostage and forcing them to accept a sign and trade to a team under the cap in order to receive compensation. Under previous CBA rules, teams used to accept one or two draft picks (+ a trade exception) as compensation for a free agent in a sign and trade (Lebron or Bosh for example). Under previous CBA rules, the player could have his cake and eat it too (playing for the team of his choice and getting the max in terms of number of years and annual raises).
Now, technically a player can still be signed and traded to a team under the cap but there's no incentive for the player or the other team, the only real possibility is a sign and trade to a team over the cap (a team with no cap room or not enough cap room and thus no leverage to force the issue).

For example, if Melo wants to play for a team under the cap like the Lakers or another team, he can simply sign there as a free agent (like Dwight did last year with Houston), no need to pursue a sign and trade.
However, let's say Melo wants to win a championship now at all costs and wants to sign with the Spurs (obviously it's highly unlikely but it's just an example) then the only way he can sign with the Spurs is via sign and trade.
Obviously, as sign and trade transactions are limited to four years and 4.5% raises, Melo would need to take less money and I seriously doubt he will do that. So far, money has always been his top priority, that's why (unlike Lebron, Wade and Bosh) he signed a max rookie extension with Denver and didn't have an opt out clause in 2010, that's why he was looking for an extend and trade transaction and had no interest signing with the Knicks as a free agent after the lockout.

Dolan and the Knicks are probably already in panic mode and will give Melo everything he wants.
Melo will dictate the contract. Melo will be offered a max five year contract with 7.5% raises next summer and he will probably sign it.

Just like he did in Denver, Melo will force a trade if he's truly unhappy and wants to win a championship asap. In the end, i doubt he will. He's probably happy in NY and I don't think he's the kind of guy willing to sacrifice everything in order to win a championship, he's just happy playing basketball. And let's face it, even if there was a trade possibility, the Knicks would probably be fleeced...Knicks management showed they cant be trusted, they have no plan, no direction and no clue.

Sadly, it's already too late. Knicks will live and die with Melo for the rest of the decade. They just need to make the most out of it. Problem is free agent signings and trade transactions show current management have no real plan to win a championship with Melo. They just take it year by year and their only goal seem to be making the post-season. And if they can't then at the trade deadline, they'll just use the same formula (quick fixes). There's a so called 2015 plan but if the Knicks are under 0.500 at the trade deadline then they will probably go for a quick fix and pull the trigger on an ill-advised trade to make the headlines and appease the masses.

Same old, same old, Knicks once again traded for an all star player and never tried to assess if they had enough flexibility and assets moving forward to put a championship caliber team on the floor.
When there's no real plan, no direction, you're going to pay the price for it at some point and that's exactly what Knicks management's experiencing right now. They probably wish they still had the amnesty provision available right now. Steve Mills is in familiar territory, he's been there before with his buddy Isiah Thomas. The only real plan at the helm seem to be : hire Isiah's cronies (Glen Grunwald, Steve Mills) as President/GM...


Thanks, thats what I was looking for. I didn't realize Melo couldn't get his full boat load in a S&T was sort of hoping for a nice return if he decided to leave but that doesn't look possible now.
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#199 » by WeAreNYC » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:46 pm

Are there any rules on different ways a contract can be structured?

Can the raises a team gives a player fluctuate? What I mean is can a team do something like offer a guy a 3 year deal like this:

10,000,000 (no raise)
10,000,000 (no raise)
10,750,000 (7.5 Raise)

Or are you not allowed to offer a raise in that third year because you didn't offer one in the second year? How about a contract that increases and then decreases?

10,000,000
10,750,000
10,000,000

I feel like i've seen this type of contract before but i'm not sure.

Edit: Also i'm not talking about like giving a player a contract with incentives or the contract being partially guaranteed in certain years. I want to know if this is possible with a 100% guaranteed contract
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Re: Knicks CBA FAQ Thread 

Post#200 » by seren » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:44 pm

WeAreNYC wrote:Are there any rules on different ways a contract can be structured?

Can the raises a team gives a player fluctuate? What I mean is can a team do something like offer a guy a 3 year deal like this:

10,000,000 (no raise)
10,000,000 (no raise)
10,750,000 (7.5 Raise)

Or are you not allowed to offer a raise in that third year because you didn't offer one in the second year? How about a contract that increases and then decreases?

10,000,000
10,750,000
10,000,000

I feel like i've seen this type of contract before but i'm not sure.

Edit: Also i'm not talking about like giving a player a contract with incentives or the contract being partially guaranteed in certain years. I want to know if this is possible with a 100% guaranteed contract


we can do both. increases have to be up to 7.5 percent and contracts can be decreased at the same percentage as well.

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