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Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe

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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#121 » by K-DOT » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Greenie wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Greenie wrote:That 17 win team was a Jackson special.

Draft picks doesn't save him. Please stop acting like it does. Every team in the NBA gets 2 picks every draft. They have the option to move them or use them. Phil has done both. Having draft picks is not a miracle. It's expected.

Jackson has made both good and bad moves. Period. We don't really have to go down the list, but he's had more than one good and damn sure more than one bad.

You sound like the chicks that defend their trifling, ho ass man by saying "at least he doesn't beat me".

The. Fuq?

Right, because it's Phil's fault we didn't have our 2014 and 2016 first rounders, meaning he had no reason to tank
You know who was picked with those two picks?
Dario Saric and Jamal Murray.
And Zach Lavine was taken one pick after our 2014 first
Guaranteed if we had those two picks we'd be in a much better spot right now

That'd be like you getting mad at Sean Marks in two years when the Nets still suck. The only thing the Nets have now that we didn't in 2014 is cap space
Regardless of what you think of the other moves I didn't mention (IMO, they don't matter in the long run), the team is in a better spot now then when Jax took over, that's all I'm saying.
He's been far from great, but by no means is he terrible.
Apparently that's too hard to understand for some on this board



I never in life blamed loss of picks on him.
I don't care who was taken with those picks that Donnie and Grunnie traded.

Phil is in his 4th year now. 4th. Not 1st, 2nd or even 3rd. This summer will be his 4th off-season, his 4th draft, his 4th free agency.

And no, we are not in a better spot. Our picks were already coming. With or without Phil. That's seems like it's too hard for you to grasp along with the "but we have our picks" crew.

Draft picks are given to each and every team. Stop acting like they aren't. Hell, with DRAFTED Shumpert and Hardaway before Phil. So picks were here. We didn't have back to back years of our picks but we were always in the clear from 2017 on BEFORE PHIL.

Right, because if Dolan didn't hire Phil, I'm sure whoever he did hire would've kept those picks. In reality, neither you or I know that, so I'm going with we have 16 years of trading picks, why would it be different now?

And in 2014 when Phil took over, we were nearly 30 million over the cap in free agency.
We had one first round pick over the next 3 years
Our best young player was Tim Hardaway Jr

Now we have 23 million in cap going into free agency, all of our picks, and KP and Willy, both of whom are better than THJ.
This team is by far in a better spot than when Phil took over
That white frost on that pound cake
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#122 » by mpharris36 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:51 pm

Greenie wrote:

I never in life blamed loss of picks on him.
I don't care who was taken with those picks that Donnie and Grunnie traded.

Phil is in his 4th year now. 4th. Not 1st, 2nd or even 3rd. This summer will be his 4th off-season, his 4th draft, his 4th free agency.

And no, we are not in a better spot. Our picks were already coming. With or without Phil. That's seems like it's too hard for you to grasp along with the "but we have our picks" crew.

Draft picks are given to each and every team. Stop acting like they aren't. Hell, with DRAFTED Shumpert and Hardaway before Phil. So picks were here. We didn't have back to back years of our picks but we were always in the clear from 2017 on BEFORE PHIL.



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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#123 » by shtolky » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:51 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Greenie wrote:
K-DOT wrote:Right, because it's Phil's fault we didn't have our 2014 and 2016 first rounders, meaning he had no reason to tank
You know who was picked with those two picks?
Dario Saric and Jamal Murray.
And Zach Lavine was taken one pick after our 2014 first
Guaranteed if we had those two picks we'd be in a much better spot right now

That'd be like you getting mad at Sean Marks in two years when the Nets still suck. The only thing the Nets have now that we didn't in 2014 is cap space
Regardless of what you think of the other moves I didn't mention (IMO, they don't matter in the long run), the team is in a better spot now then when Jax took over, that's all I'm saying.
He's been far from great, but by no means is he terrible.
Apparently that's too hard to understand for some on this board



I never in life blamed loss of picks on him.
I don't care who was taken with those picks that Donnie and Grunnie traded.

Phil is in his 4th year now. 4th. Not 1st, 2nd or even 3rd. This summer will be his 4th off-season, his 4th draft, his 4th free agency.

And no, we are not in a better spot. Our picks were already coming. With or without Phil. That's seems like it's too hard for you to grasp along with the "but we have our picks" crew.

Draft picks are given to each and every team. Stop acting like they aren't. Hell, with DRAFTED Shumpert and Hardaway before Phil. So picks were here. We didn't have back to back years of our picks but we were always in the clear from 2017 on BEFORE PHIL.

Right, because if Dolan didn't hire Phil, I'm sure whoever he did hire would've kept those picks. In reality, neither you or I know that, so I'm going with we have 16 years of trading picks, why would it be different now?

And in 2014 when Phil took over, we were nearly 30 million over the cap in free agency.
We had one first round pick over the next 3 years
Our best young player was Tim Hardaway Jr

Now we have 23 million in cap going into free agency, all of our picks, and KP and Willy, both of whom are better than THJ.
This team is by far in a better spot than when Phil took over



To those who are frustrated with Phil, saying that he is in his FOURTH year, not 1st, not 2nd, not 3rd, but 4th...what would you have done if you were him? With no 2014 and 2016 first, and very little cap space until recently. This is his fourth draft you say...but only one of the first three has he had a first rounder, and he seemed to do pretty well with that one. You say this is his fourth free agency, but in the first two he really couldn't do much. It's sort of like saying Obama was a garbage President his first few years, without mentioning the mess he inherited (I do NOT think Obama was a bad President, I am using it as an example). You can't look at Phil's time here in a vacuum, he had, and has, a massive mess to clean up. Would you rather have KP, Willy, and our 2017 lottery pick, or Toure Murry, Jeremy Tyler, Chris Smith, Shumpert, and Hardaway, with no 2014 first and no cap space? Those were our young players, that was our cap situation. We were in mediocrity HELL the year before Phil arrived. 37 wins, no good young players to build around, no cap space, no picks. You say the picks were coming, yet for the past 17 years all we have DONE is trade picks. You then say, oh but we drafted Shumpert and Hardaway...those are your examples of us using picks well? The picks we traded away in deals during the real crap regimes, turned into actual NBA players like Noah, Aldridge, Hayward, and very good young players like Murray. So, I ask again, what would you have done following that glorious 2013-14 37 win season?
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#124 » by Amsterdam » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:59 pm

Also lets add to this. Everyone who was signing with the Knicks, be it Woodson or Smith or whomever, had to sign with CAA.
When we were going through Linsanity, Cablevision's stock shot through the roof, TimeWarner was at war with Cablevision for more telecasts and better pricing and the money was pouring in.

Lin was the golden calf for Dolan as international broadcast sales alone was to bring in hundreds of millions of new contracts. The NBA was exploding upward throughout EurAsia.

However, who's to say that there wasn't also a war between Lin, his agent with CAA. Bet you if Lin didn't stay loyal to his agent and would have signed with CAA, Linsanity would have lasted a few more season at MSG.

Lin at MSG would have offset the contract's final year, even with the poison pill. We all know this to be financially true, if we remember well.

That's how CAA was running and ruining the Knicks. You guys have no idea of the battles that go on in the corporate rooms with teams and powerful agencies.
What Phil did to rid MSG of the CAA cannibals was miraculous.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#125 » by K-DOT » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:00 pm

shtolky wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Greenie wrote:

I never in life blamed loss of picks on him.
I don't care who was taken with those picks that Donnie and Grunnie traded.

Phil is in his 4th year now. 4th. Not 1st, 2nd or even 3rd. This summer will be his 4th off-season, his 4th draft, his 4th free agency.

And no, we are not in a better spot. Our picks were already coming. With or without Phil. That's seems like it's too hard for you to grasp along with the "but we have our picks" crew.

Draft picks are given to each and every team. Stop acting like they aren't. Hell, with DRAFTED Shumpert and Hardaway before Phil. So picks were here. We didn't have back to back years of our picks but we were always in the clear from 2017 on BEFORE PHIL.

Right, because if Dolan didn't hire Phil, I'm sure whoever he did hire would've kept those picks. In reality, neither you or I know that, so I'm going with we have 16 years of trading picks, why would it be different now?

And in 2014 when Phil took over, we were nearly 30 million over the cap in free agency.
We had one first round pick over the next 3 years
Our best young player was Tim Hardaway Jr

Now we have 23 million in cap going into free agency, all of our picks, and KP and Willy, both of whom are better than THJ.
This team is by far in a better spot than when Phil took over



To those who are frustrated with Phil, saying that he is in his FOURTH year, not 1st, not 2nd, not 3rd, but 4th...what would you have done if you were him? With no 2014 and 2016 first, and very little cap space until recently. This is his fourth draft you say...but only one of the first three has he had a first rounder, and he seemed to do pretty well with that one. You say this is his fourth free agency, but in the first two he really couldn't do much. It's sort of like saying Obama was a garbage President his first few years, without mentioning the mess he inherited (I do NOT think Obama was a bad President, I am using it as an example). You can't look at Phil's time here in a vacuum, he had, and has, a massive mess to clean up. Would you rather have KP, Willy, and our 2017 lottery pick, or Toure Murry, Jeremy Tyler, Chris Smith, Shumpert, and Hardaway, with no 2014 first and no cap space? Those were our young players, that was our cap situation. We were in mediocrity HELL the year before Phil arrived. 37 wins, no good young players to build around, no cap space, no picks. You say the picks were coming, yet for the past 17 years all we have DONE is trade picks. You then say, oh but we drafted Shumpert and Hardaway...those are your examples of us using picks well? The picks we traded away in deals during the real crap regimes, turned into actual NBA players like Noah, Aldridge, Hayward, and very good young players like Murray. So, I ask again, what would you have done following that glorious 2013-14 37 win season?

This is really the only situation in this scenario
No matter what you do, we'll still be a sub-30 win team this year
We won't have much in the way of young talent due to no draft picks, and little trade assets
The only thing you could do better is not give Lee and Noah their contracts, and have a sh*tload of cap space in the offseason, but that doesn't even really make a difference because nobody would sign here anyways (see the Wolves this last offseason, nobody wanted to sign there)
Que sera sera I guess
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#126 » by shtolky » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:06 pm

To piggyback off of my last post...rebuilding takes a while. It just does. There are different ways to rebuild. You can tear everything down Sixers style, you can draft young players and still try to add vets, etc. For example, the Warriors in 2008-9 had 29 wins. 2009-10 they had 26 wins with a rookie Steph Curry. 2010-11 they have 36 wins. 2011-12 with a rookie Klay Thompson they dip to 23 wins. It's at this point you probably would have wanted to trade both Curry and Klay, without realizing that young players get better. Go look at their roster during that 23 win season. Guess how many players are left from that roster...two, Curry and Klay. Point being, rebuilding takes TIME, and yet you say Phil is in his FOURTH SEASON OMG!!! as if he has to turn around the YEARS of crap in that short amount of time. It's ridiculous.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#127 » by Dr. Detfink » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:09 pm

Boy, I can't believe the posts defending Mike "FAT STRONG" Woodson...

As an assistant, this guy NEVER gave Jeremy Lin any credit.

As head coach, he always talked up Raymond Felton AFTER he showed up out of shape...and even when he was under investigation with the gun charges. I get it, they both eat at the same buffet table.

The Knicks DID go on a mini-spending spree...

Tyson Chandler was getting $13M per

They got Steve Novak for $4M per season

Traded for Marcus "Broke LAME" Camby for $4M per season...

Raymond Felton for $3.4M

Jason Kidd for $3M per (that he never finished)

Balkman, Sheed, JR Smith, and Kenyon Martin for spare change....

Essentially the Knicks spent $30M to get punched out in the second round. Only problem being, the team fell apart the following season and proceeded to make worse deals.

So let's not get crazy with blaming Phil Jackson. Sure he's made a lot of mistakes but Donnie Walsh has more front office experience than most guys who have been alive.

At the end of the day, the Knicks are just not a very good franchise top to bottom.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#128 » by Amsterdam » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:23 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:Boy, I can't believe the posts defending Mike "FAT STRONG" Woodson...

As an assistant, this guy NEVER gave Jeremy Lin any credit.

As head coach, he always talked up Raymond Felton AFTER he showed up out of shape...and even when he was under investigation with the gun charges. I get it, they both eat at the same buffet table.

The Knicks DID go on a mini-spending spree...

Tyson Chandler was getting $13M per

They got Steve Novak for $4M per season

Traded for Marcus "Broke LAME" Camby for $4M per season...

Raymond Felton for $3.4M

Jason Kidd for $3M per (that he never finished)

Balkman, Sheed, JR Smith, and Kenyon Martin for spare change....

Essentially the Knicks spent $30M to get punched out in the second round. Only problem being, the team fell apart the following season and proceeded to make worse deals.

So let's not get crazy with blaming Phil Jackson. Sure he's made a lot of mistakes but Donnie Walsh has more front office experience than most guys who have been alive.

At the end of the day, the Knicks are just not a very good franchise top to bottom.


Exactly.

I'm not sure which previous Knicks management head Phil Jackson is being compared to. But he's been busy trying to eradicate decades of issues, which include.

- Player development
- Draft pick and trades
- Powerful agencies influencing player movement and contracts
- Media meddling
- Financial management

Some here just harp on the same things ad nauseum. Not many realize the amount of difficult challenges faced in building a good foundation, not just for the present season, but for years to come from an organizational standpoint.
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Re: RE: Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#129 » by NoLayupRule » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:48 pm

GONYK wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:
GONYK wrote:
He has replaced:

Woodson
Fisher

So he has only replaced 2 coaches, since you aren't counting Rambis, who was just an interim

the point being there have been a lot of coaches in his tenure here, right?
or are you splitting hairs?

Except, there hasn't.

Woodson wasn't really part of the Jackson tenure.

It has been Fisher and Jeff, and Jeff is still here.
i can't really agree with you

The players have played under 4 coaches
Jackson came in and assessed. He didn't have to fire Woodson. Woodson was the winningest coach we've had since van gundy. Not all gms fire the coach.

So he fired Woodson and hired fish.

That's not imagination. That's fact. The players got a new head coach and Woodson got a new job.

Then fish got fired and rambis got the interm nod. There was a lot of talk about him staying until the fans and Dolan rebelled.
And surprisingly he hired Jeff

Rambis didn't get fired and sadly he's leading the defense in the most pathetic way

From a player perspective they have had 4 coaches under Jackson

From a math perspective he has hired two coaches and fired two.


It's too many in 3.5 years any way you cut it

Yes, he did the right thing in dumping fish and rambis. But there is a larger issue.
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Re: RE: Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#130 » by GONYK » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:07 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:
GONYK wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:the point being there have been a lot of coaches in his tenure here, right?
or are you splitting hairs?

Except, there hasn't.

Woodson wasn't really part of the Jackson tenure.

It has been Fisher and Jeff, and Jeff is still here.
i can't really agree with you

The players have played under 4 coaches
Jackson came in and assessed. He didn't have to fire Woodson. Woodson was the winningest coach we've had since van gundy. Not all gms fire the coach.

So he fired Woodson and hired fish.

That's not imagination. That's fact. The players got a new head coach and Woodson got a new job.

Then fish got fired and rambis got the interm nod. There was a lot of talk about him staying until the fans and Dolan rebelled.
And surprisingly he hired Jeff

Rambis didn't get fired and sadly he's leading the defense in the most pathetic way

From a player perspective they have had 4 coaches under Jackson

From a math perspective he has hired two coaches and fired two.


It's too many in 3.5 years any way you cut it

Yes, he did the right thing in dumping fish and rambis. But there is a larger issue.


I disagree.

Phil is really only responsible for the personnel he brought in. He didn't bring in Woodson, and it was expected he would be fired.

Phil was hired in late March. He's not responsible for 3 weeks of Woodson. Every new manager brings in their own staff. To count Woodson against Phil is pretty ticky tacky. Melo is literally the only player on the current roster who played for Woodson.

Any reasonable analysis puts Fisher as the first coach of the Phil era. He ran the Triangle.

Rambis was the interim coach after Fish. He ran the Triangle.

Jeff was brought in as the next full time HC. He experimented with a freer system for half a season, and now runs the Triangle.

What is this crazy adjustment that the players have to be making again? The Triangle, to the chagrin of posters and media, has been a constant.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#131 » by god shammgod » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:24 pm

phil is not responsible for woodson. woodson has a winning record with the knicks. that's not a phil coach.
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Re: RE: Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#132 » by NoLayupRule » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:25 pm

GONYK wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:
GONYK wrote:Except, there hasn't.

Woodson wasn't really part of the Jackson tenure.

It has been Fisher and Jeff, and Jeff is still here.
i can't really agree with you

The players have played under 4 coaches
Jackson came in and assessed. He didn't have to fire Woodson. Woodson was the winningest coach we've had since van gundy. Not all gms fire the coach.

So he fired Woodson and hired fish.

That's not imagination. That's fact. The players got a new head coach and Woodson got a new job.

Then fish got fired and rambis got the interm nod. There was a lot of talk about him staying until the fans and Dolan rebelled.
And surprisingly he hired Jeff

Rambis didn't get fired and sadly he's leading the defense in the most pathetic way

From a player perspective they have had 4 coaches under Jackson

From a math perspective he has hired two coaches and fired two.


It's too many in 3.5 years any way you cut it

Yes, he did the right thing in dumping fish and rambis. But there is a larger issue.


I disagree.

Phil is really only responsible for the personnel he brought in. He didn't bring in Woodson, and it was expected he would be fired.

Phil was hired in late March. He's not responsible for 3 weeks of Woodson. Every new manager brings in their own staff. To count Woodson against Phil is pretty ticky tacky. Melo is literally the only player on the current roster who played for Woodson.

Any reasonable analysis puts Fisher as the first coach of the Phil era. He ran the Triangle.

Rambis was the interim coach after Fish. He ran the Triangle.

Jeff was brought in as the next full time HC. He experimented with a freer system for half a season, and now runs the Triangle.

What is this crazy adjustment that the players have to be making again? The Triangle, to the chagrin of posters and media, has been a constant.
for me the consistency of coaching and teammates makes for a large part of a successful team
The turnover has been horrendous and nearly total every year in ny. And that's not just Jackson.

Some turnover is beneficial and some is not. But constantly changing everything every year is brutal. Jackson has been guilty of this.

The coaches may all have been "running the triangle" but we know everything changes between coaches and that triangle is far from consistently run between them, not to mention defenses and rotations and set plays and all that

Sorry. My bad.
Defensive schemes have been consistent between coaches.

Aka non existent.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#133 » by Greenie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:01 am

god shammgod wrote:phil is not responsible for woodson. woodson has a winning record with the knicks. that's not a phil coach.

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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#134 » by Mecca » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:26 am

It's so sad that us as Knicks fans have such low standards for a GM that we'll praise a guy for not trading picks like that's some rare skill set. It's like falling in love with a girl because she doesn't pick her nose.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#135 » by omerome » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:56 am

Mecca wrote:It's so sad that us as Knicks fans have such low standards for a GM that we'll praise a guy for not trading picks like that's some rare skill set. It's like falling in love with a girl because she doesn't pick her nose.

This is sig worthy.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#136 » by battabing10 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:49 am

same people who think woodson was all that also think isiah thomas was great, we shouldnt of traded crawful and zbo, liked the melo trade. why?
Melo: be a great 6th man or be DBDM [deadbeat Dad Melo] (thanks blueNorange)-- Knicks move forward either way. Tatum and Monk will disappoint.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#137 » by Dr. Detfink » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:35 am

god shammgod wrote:phil is not responsible for woodson. woodson has a winning record with the knicks. that's not a phil coach.


No one is confusing that. They're saying he's responsible for firing him, which is what usually happens when a new front office begins tenure.

As for Derek Fisher, he didn't run the triangle as much as Phil would have liked but that didn't get him fired, it was scandal. Namely sticking his Johnson into middle aged cod with an overly delusional EX-husband.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#138 » by Greenie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:16 pm

Mecca wrote:It's so sad that us as Knicks fans have such low standards for a GM that we'll praise a guy for not trading picks like that's some rare skill set. It's like falling in love with a girl because she doesn't pick her nose.

I said this earlier.
It's like defending your whore of a man because he doesn't beat you :lol:
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#139 » by Greenie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:35 pm

battabing10 wrote:same people who think woodson was all that also think isiah thomas was great, we shouldnt of traded crawful and zbo, liked the melo trade. why?

Didn't like IT....stop playing
Crawford was a 6th man. People here knew that but the Knicks didn't. (Sound familiar)
Zbo was a damn good player once again be placed in positions where he was asked to do too much(I see a theme here).

We won that Melo trade. Saying we didn't is showing the hater in you. NOBODY we traded became half the player Melo has been for us. Dude scored over 10K points in 6 seasons with us which included his half first season, the lockout season and the 17 win season where he was shut down after All-Star break. Step back and think about that. Add to that he's actually in his 6th season with us. We couldn't build around him because we made dumb moves after the trade and the player who was actually making more than him his entire tenure here was hurt more than healthy. I'm not even mad at STAT. **** happens.

You keep banging that Melo hate drum though....but then get upset when I say KP isn't an Alpha. Not that I don't like him or want to get rid of him, but because I don't think he's an Alpha... :lol:
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battabing10
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#140 » by battabing10 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:34 pm

Greenie wrote:
battabing10 wrote:same people who think woodson was all that also think isiah thomas was great, we shouldnt of traded crawful and zbo, liked the melo trade. why?

Didn't like IT....stop playing
Crawford was a 6th man. People here knew that but the Knicks didn't. (Sound familiar)
Zbo was a damn good player once again be placed in positions where he was asked to do too much(I see a theme here).

We won that Melo trade. Saying we didn't is showing the hater in you. NOBODY we traded became half the player Melo has been for us. Dude scored over 10K points in 6 seasons with us which included his half first season, the lockout season and the 17 win season where he was shut down after All-Star break. Step back and think about that. Add to that he's actually in his 6th season with us. We couldn't build around him because we made dumb moves after the trade and the player who was actually making more than him his entire tenure here was hurt more than healthy. I'm not even mad at STAT. **** happens.

You keep banging that Melo hate drum though....but then get upset when I say KP isn't an Alpha. Not that I don't like him or want to get rid of him, but because I don't think he's an Alpha... :lol:



i ain't listening lallalalalllalallalala
Melo: be a great 6th man or be DBDM [deadbeat Dad Melo] (thanks blueNorange)-- Knicks move forward either way. Tatum and Monk will disappoint.

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