Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe

[moocow007]

And we've managed to turn a thread about our head coach into one about the Melo trade

Gotta love it aye?

[Greenie]

Greenie,

Sure Dolan owns the team, but believe me, agents, managements and players can put pressure on ownership in order to get their deals done. My main problem in your post, is you always make it seem Melo's not responsible for anything. Which is just untrue, every all star in this league has responsibilities.

Some players, like LeBron, Duncan, Nowitzki have always looked team first, themselves second, and as a result, they won a ring or more, and that's just not Melo's case.

Was LeBron stupid to trade Wiggins ? He's made two NBA Finals appearance since, including a championship since, Wiggins was not a fit. At least, the Cavs can guard the perimeter here.

I fully agree the Knicks were too stupid to care about the Nets. Remember when Prokhorov had BKN Nets billboards in Manhattan? Dolan saw competition coming while he shoulda understood the Knicks are bigger than this. Dolan didn't understand what the Knicks meant to the city. Maybe he does now, but the Oakley story proves otherwise.

I also fully agree the Knicks should not have traded Billups for Tyson. Billups was the guy who elevated Melo's game and results in Denver, we should have tried one full year with him. Melo-Amare-Tyson was not a good big three, as it was unbalanced. Can't make a big three without a guard.

I try not make it a Melo thing, as the Knicks are bigger than him, but the fact is the team has retooled multiple times around him, using different players, coaches, managements, and Melo led this team to nowhere.
He is nowhere close to achieve what Ewing did. The Knicks have actually been successful with Ewing, although they don't have rings to show, they do have multiple banners up high in the Garden, and that means something. This league is not title or bust. Conference championship, division banners, or play-off series win, mean something.

I remember those years, hell Melo won't even match what Houston and Sprewell did on that great 1999 run. i thought these guys back then could accept management decisions for the benefit of the team, that Melo doesn't.

You can blame management for poor rades and moves, including for PGs, but they/Melo were saved by LInsanity and they shoulda taken advantage of it, instead Melo called Jeremy's contract "ridiculous", and management let him go to make him happy. For what ? you said best, nothing. Still smh.

Ahhh

So this is all about Lin for you? That poison pill was ridiculous. The tax hit the Knicks would have taken would have been beyond stupid for a below average/average player at best. That was money directly coming out of Dolan's pocket. He decided he didn't want to spend that and looking back he was right as all hell on that one. And that's coming from a person in the "match him" camp.


Edit: Melo was as advertised to me. He didn't come here and stop being the dude we traded for. What did you think he was when we acquired him?

No Greenie, this isn't about Lin personally.
I was just referring to him since he was the most impactful PG we had in recent history, and you stated our lack of focus on the point guard was an issue, which i agreed with. You can't be sitting on one seat, blaming the Knicks lack of interest for good PGs, and then sit on the next seat, and ignore the way Melo and the Knicks ran Lin out of town.

Regardless, you still choose to ignore the fact that other all-stars I mentioned have been smarter to build confidence with mgmt/owner, and therefore build their teams, than Melo..
He/you can't be blaming forever the weaker supporting cast on managements or injuries.
These guys faced injuries too.

You can't also act as if it was OK Melo stayed the player he was in Denver. No it was not OK. In this business, all stars are due to grow as human beings, and grow as players. Sprewell stopped choking coaches in NY, LJ & Ewing both changed their respective game when age was coming, Kobe grew up under Phil to get five rings.

History goes on and on and on, champions were not champions until they became champions. And they did because they elevated their attitude and game to adversity. MJ was losing in postseason prior to Phil coaching. Kobe/Shaq/Gasol too. The Pistons showed great heart to win a ring and beat Payton/Kobe/Mailman & Shaq. Dirk won a ring when he started to attack the rim more often, rather than chucking jumpers.
I'm not a fan of LeBron but he's not the same player today he was in his early Cleveland days. The last Finals were adamant proof. LeBron did things very few expected. That's basket-ball, and we are both talking basket-ball here.

It was well advertised by Phil that he had a problem with Melo stopping the ball.
When he resigned him, Phil said very clearly in interviews Melo committed to do things, but he didn't do those. If someone was "hoodwinked", that was Phil.
Melo was a loser in Denver, and came to NY to be a winner. He did not and I can't be OK with this, that's a f'ing loser's attitude to be Ok with what Melo accomplished here. the guy is in office has had 13 rings as player and coach, show some damn respect to that.

First off:
Phil is a failed Executive. He has shown he can't put together a roster. Period. When Phil decides he's coming down to coach I will respect that. He deserves nothing as an exec. So get off the "respect for his 13 rings" nonsense when they were all gained with him playing a different role from the one he's playing now.

Lin:
Lin wasn't ran anywhere and saying so is making **** up. He went and got his money. Stop blaming Melo for Lin getting paid. Blame Houston for the poison pill. On top of that Lin wasn't the answer at PG. Dude is on team number what? So no, I'm not hoping back and forth on the PG situation.


Players do evolve. Melo evolved into the best overall scorer, but that is what he was. He's not a PG(LeBron) so stop comparing his evolution and skills to others. Did you know that players can develop already good skills? They can. Melo developed that 3 pointer here. He became a better scorer here. You're upset he didn't become a pass first player. He was never that. He was a scorer and got better at scoring.

You're the poster that will be here in a few years complaining that KP doesn't pass like Jokic. Meanwhile dude will be a deadly jump shooter.

[Greenie]

To use a variation of Remy's verse.....

"To win a trade, you would have to actually win'.

Both teams lost when seeing the book read. Gallo and Chandler are complimentary pieces, they were assets though, if they were the bums that folks wanna say they are then how did we get Melo? or perhaps we paid what Melo is actually worth?

Anyway, the Knicks really haven't been anywhere close to nice, solid or even good during any period of Melo's tenure.

3 playoff appearances.....one series win against a really old Boston team that somehow stretched a sweep to 6 games.

Funny thing is, I can recall H20's game winner, LJ's 4pt play, I can't recall not one series marking play from Melo resulting in the Knicks winning a series. To be fair I do recall Melo dunking on Jeff Pendergraph, but the Knicks lost that series. That dunk was nasty btw for some of you don't recall, and kinda why I wasn't buying the sore shoulder nonsense. Bum shoulders don't do that.

Sure, it's a team game, and perhaps the Knicks should have built better, but that "team game" never applies when cats wanna claim Melo carried Denver to the playoffs every year. He didn't. Even in his first year, he shared a court with 4 other players averaging double figure scoring, most notably Andre Miller who joined Denver the same year Melo did. He had help. Denver had a high scoring offense nearly every year, the bulk of the individual scoring came from Melo, but those teams had capable guys to put up points...every single year. What Denver never had was a commitment to defense.

Melo was the best player during those years, no denying that, but being the best player limited Denver nearly every year to being a low seed, playoff flameout, that did not lose to the champs every year either. Same scenario played as a Knick.

Melo is pretty much the Dominique Wilkins of todays NBA. Terrific scoring option, lock for HOF, will normally light up the defender, but cant be the top guy if winning something significant matter, because he, like Nique never gave a consistent effort in the aspects of the game that the winner do. Nique was the SF version of MJ without any of MJ's winning traits, similar to Melo being the SF version of version without any of the traits that made Kobe a winner.

It aint about scoring, there's been tons of high volume scorers, but the better players, the one's who truly carry teams significantly all do the other aspects that result in memorable playoff wins. They fill up a stat sheet, and perform on both ends of the court.

Enough of the who won the trade. Both teams lost. Knicks still doing so.

It's what I figured at the time of the trade. Little known fact - I am actually a Melo supporter from his time with the 'Cuse. Always liked that he brought the NCAA title to Western NY. But the trade was the wrong guy for what we'd already started, which was flawed to begin with. You can't do it if your two best players aren't committed to defense. Amar'e/Stat was a playoff combo but not a contender.

To be fair - we never really saw that pairing, which is too bad. That first series against Boston started out with some of the best ball I've seen the Knicks play since the 90s. It looked like we'd at least be entertained for a few years. Then Billups turned into a pumpkin and Amar'e hurt his back. But the pairing that worked best was a group of defenders and a center around Melo and that was still only good for the second round. We just didn't have the pieces to get another two way star.

Big L.

Solid post. Most know I've followed him since HS, the time when he actually played pg. I'm well versed in his capabilities, which is why I get a nice chuckle when folks get bent when he's compared to LeBron. Melo actually has similar skillsets.....just doesn't use them. But you're right, the pairing was awful, mainly because of the defense, a pairing that we really didn't really get to see, and it was compounded with signing Chandler, and in his thinking he was right. he could do their "dirty work", while they poured in the points. then drafting Shumpert as an on ball defender. The thinking started to make sense, then the wheels continued to fall of the car.

But overall, just too much was invested to get support for a player that isn't a guy to lead a team to things meaningful.

All skill sets do not translate and you know that. Saying Melo played PG in high school is equivalent to saying Anthony Davis did too. LeBron's PG skill set translated and Melo's didn't. Melo became a better scorer while LeBron became a better playmaker.

[Thugger HBC]

It's what I figured at the time of the trade. Little known fact - I am actually a Melo supporter from his time with the 'Cuse. Always liked that he brought the NCAA title to Western NY. But the trade was the wrong guy for what we'd already started, which was flawed to begin with. You can't do it if your two best players aren't committed to defense. Amar'e/Stat was a playoff combo but not a contender.

To be fair - we never really saw that pairing, which is too bad. That first series against Boston started out with some of the best ball I've seen the Knicks play since the 90s. It looked like we'd at least be entertained for a few years. Then Billups turned into a pumpkin and Amar'e hurt his back. But the pairing that worked best was a group of defenders and a center around Melo and that was still only good for the second round. We just didn't have the pieces to get another two way star.

Big L.

Solid post. Most know I've followed him since HS, the time when he actually played pg. I'm well versed in his capabilities, which is why I get a nice chuckle when folks get bent when he's compared to LeBron. Melo actually has similar skillsets.....just doesn't use them. But you're right, the pairing was awful, mainly because of the defense, a pairing that we really didn't really get to see, and it was compounded with signing Chandler, and in his thinking he was right. he could do their "dirty work", while they poured in the points. then drafting Shumpert as an on ball defender. The thinking started to make sense, then the wheels continued to fall of the car.

But overall, just too much was invested to get support for a player that isn't a guy to lead a team to things meaningful.

All skill sets do not translate and you know that. Saying Melo played PG in high school is equivalent to saying Anthony Davis did too. LeBron's PG skill set translated and Melo's didn't. Melo became a better scorer while LeBron became a better playmaker.

Just because he didn't develop it doesn't mean it couldn't translate. Many players have played the point and while their bodies may have grown out of the position, you can easily see those skillsets, even from big men who used to play the position. The skills haven't gone anywhere. Melo is a good playmaker and good passer. it's the desire to want, and in melo's case, it's not a preference. He was pushed into the scorers role because it's the easy way to play. Melo isn't efficient at what he does best, but he is quite good at maxing out volume. But the point is that Melo has those similar skills and sometimes he has displayed it, so they actually do translate....when he wants to. Same as his defense. he's capable...when he wants to.

As far as the better scorer thats LeBron as well plus being the better playmaker. The odd part is LeBron isn't as versatile in scoring, and sometimes doesn't even look to score, yet has a much higher career average, because the ways LeBron does score...he does it better than Melo even with his numerous ways to score, which are mostly inefficient.

The object of the game is to put the ball through the hoop. LeBron does it better, and has the numbers to show for it. Just imagine what LeBron would average if all he had to do was score.

[Thugger HBC]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

[omerome]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

Nah. Ewing was just more offensively versatile. Ewing never dominated at his position like Shaq did. And Ewing wasn't even the most offensively versatile player in his prime, that would be Hakeem imo.

[Greenie]

Solid post. Most know I've followed him since HS, the time when he actually played pg. I'm well versed in his capabilities, which is why I get a nice chuckle when folks get bent when he's compared to LeBron. Melo actually has similar skillsets.....just doesn't use them. But you're right, the pairing was awful, mainly because of the defense, a pairing that we really didn't really get to see, and it was compounded with signing Chandler, and in his thinking he was right. he could do their "dirty work", while they poured in the points. then drafting Shumpert as an on ball defender. The thinking started to make sense, then the wheels continued to fall of the car.

But overall, just too much was invested to get support for a player that isn't a guy to lead a team to things meaningful.

All skill sets do not translate and you know that. Saying Melo played PG in high school is equivalent to saying Anthony Davis did too. LeBron's PG skill set translated and Melo's didn't. Melo became a better scorer while LeBron became a better playmaker.

Just because he didn't develop it doesn't mean it couldn't translate. Many players have played the point and while their bodies may have grown out of the position, you can easily see those skillsets, even from big men who used to play the position. The skills haven't gone anywhere. Melo is a good playmaker and good passer. it's the desire to want, and in melo's case, it's not a preference. He was pushed into the scorers role because it's the easy way to play. Melo isn't efficient at what he does best, but he is quite good at maxing out volume. But the point is that Melo has those similar skills and sometimes he has displayed it, so they actually do translate....when he wants to. Same as his defense. he's capable...when he wants to.

As far as the better scorer thats LeBron as well plus being the better playmaker. The odd part is LeBron isn't as versatile in scoring, and sometimes doesn't even look to score, yet has a much higher career average, because the ways LeBron does score...he does it better than Melo even with his numerous ways to score, which are mostly inefficient.

The object of the game is to put the ball through the hoop. LeBron does it better, and has the numbers to show for it. Just imagine what LeBron would average if all he had to do was score.

I'm going to guess it would be like what we saw in the 1st GS series where his PPG went up but his passing and efficiency took a dive.

[Greenie]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

He was a better scorer but Shaq was more dominant.

Melo is a better scorer but LeBron is more dominant.

[Thugger HBC]

All skill sets do not translate and you know that. Saying Melo played PG in high school is equivalent to saying Anthony Davis did too. LeBron's PG skill set translated and Melo's didn't. Melo became a better scorer while LeBron became a better playmaker.

Just because he didn't develop it doesn't mean it couldn't translate. Many players have played the point and while their bodies may have grown out of the position, you can easily see those skillsets, even from big men who used to play the position. The skills haven't gone anywhere. Melo is a good playmaker and good passer. it's the desire to want, and in melo's case, it's not a preference. He was pushed into the scorers role because it's the easy way to play. Melo isn't efficient at what he does best, but he is quite good at maxing out volume. But the point is that Melo has those similar skills and sometimes he has displayed it, so they actually do translate....when he wants to. Same as his defense. he's capable...when he wants to.

As far as the better scorer thats LeBron as well plus being the better playmaker. The odd part is LeBron isn't as versatile in scoring, and sometimes doesn't even look to score, yet has a much higher career average, because the ways LeBron does score...he does it better than Melo even with his numerous ways to score, which are mostly inefficient.

The object of the game is to put the ball through the hoop. LeBron does it better, and has the numbers to show for it. Just imagine what LeBron would average if all he had to do was score.

I'm going to guess it would be like what we saw in the 1st GS series where his PPG went up but his passing and efficiency took a dive.

or maybe the 2nd series when this happened...

[Greenie]

Just because he didn't develop it doesn't mean it couldn't translate. Many players have played the point and while their bodies may have grown out of the position, you can easily see those skillsets, even from big men who used to play the position. The skills haven't gone anywhere. Melo is a good playmaker and good passer. it's the desire to want, and in melo's case, it's not a preference. He was pushed into the scorers role because it's the easy way to play. Melo isn't efficient at what he does best, but he is quite good at maxing out volume. But the point is that Melo has those similar skills and sometimes he has displayed it, so they actually do translate....when he wants to. Same as his defense. he's capable...when he wants to.

As far as the better scorer thats LeBron as well plus being the better playmaker. The odd part is LeBron isn't as versatile in scoring, and sometimes doesn't even look to score, yet has a much higher career average, because the ways LeBron does score...he does it better than Melo even with his numerous ways to score, which are mostly inefficient.

The object of the game is to put the ball through the hoop. LeBron does it better, and has the numbers to show for it. Just imagine what LeBron would average if all he had to do was score.

I'm going to guess it would be like what we saw in the 1st GS series where his PPG went up but his passing and efficiency took a dive.

or maybe the 2nd series when this happened...

The scoring load wasn't fully on him.
Why are fans overlooking what Irving did?

LeBron dropped 40 the same game Kyrie dropped 40.

It was Kyrie that hit the dagger.

Melo has never played with a player that could fill it up on the same level as him.
Kyrie is an elite scorer. STAT could have maybe been that, but we know what happened.

When James was alone with the Knick rejects that first series he saw his points go up while everything else fell. He often looked like Melo in that series and had no choice. It was the last time I felt bad for him.

Now, I'm not saying Melo would throw up the same numbers as LeBron on the Cavs, but I do think you would see an uptick in his passing and efficiency. That's all.

Melo looked really good last year before he got hurt and Fisher got fired. I think the whole team was better with Fisher to be very honest.

[Billy Goat]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

No of course not.

[Billy Goat]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

He was a better scorer but Shaq was more dominant.

Melo is a better scorer but LeBron is more dominant.

what does this even mean? Lebron is better in every meaningful offensive statistical category than Melo by a significant margin.

[Greenie]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

He was a better scorer but Shaq was more dominant.

Melo is a better scorer but LeBron is more dominant.

what does this even mean? Lebron is better in every meaningful offensive statistical category than Melo by a significant margin.

everything isn't a stat

read the conversation again

[Billy Goat]

He was a better scorer but Shaq was more dominant.

Melo is a better scorer but LeBron is more dominant.

what does this even mean? Lebron is better in every meaningful offensive statistical category than Melo by a significant margin.

everything isn't a stat

read the conversation again

I just read it again- Why is Carmelo a better scorer than Lebron?

[Clyde Frazier]

You know what would be fun: giving hornacek a good PG rotation and letting him run whatever the **** he wants.

[moocow007]

I know I'm grossly off topic but is Ewing a better scorer just because he had more offensive moves than Shaq?

I dont think so. Being able to put the ball through the basket in whatever manner more than anyone else makes you a great scorer. Shaq managed to do that better than Ewing so I would consider Shaq a better scorer overall. I would consider Ewing a more refined scorer but 2 points is 2 points regardless of how much finesse or variation it takes to get the 2 points.

Sent from my SM-T377T using RealGM mobile app

[Clyde Frazier]

To use a variation of Remy's verse.....

"To win a trade, you would have to actually win'.

Both teams lost when seeing the book read. Gallo and Chandler are complimentary pieces, they were assets though, if they were the bums that folks wanna say they are then how did we get Melo? or perhaps we paid what Melo is actually worth?

Anyway, the Knicks really haven't been anywhere close to nice, solid or even good during any period of Melo's tenure.

3 playoff appearances.....one series win against a really old Boston team that somehow stretched a sweep to 6 games.

Funny thing is, I can recall H20's game winner, LJ's 4pt play, I can't recall not one series marking play from Melo resulting in the Knicks winning a series. To be fair I do recall Melo dunking on Jeff Pendergraph, but the Knicks lost that series. That dunk was nasty btw for some of you don't recall, and kinda why I wasn't buying the sore shoulder nonsense. Bum shoulders don't do that.

Sure, it's a team game, and perhaps the Knicks should have built better, but that "team game" never applies when cats wanna claim Melo carried Denver to the playoffs every year. He didn't. Even in his first year, he shared a court with 4 other players averaging double figure scoring, most notably Andre Miller who joined Denver the same year Melo did. He had help. Denver had a high scoring offense nearly every year, the bulk of the individual scoring came from Melo, but those teams had capable guys to put up points...every single year. What Denver never had was a commitment to defense.

Melo was the best player during those years, no denying that, but being the best player limited Denver nearly every year to being a low seed, playoff flameout, that did not lose to the champs every year either. Same scenario played as a Knick.

Melo is pretty much the Dominique Wilkins of todays NBA. Terrific scoring option, lock for HOF, will normally light up the defender, but cant be the top guy if winning something significant matter, because he, like Nique never gave a consistent effort in the aspects of the game that the winner do. Nique was the SF version of MJ without any of MJ's winning traits, similar to Melo being the SF version of version without any of the traits that made Kobe a winner.

It aint about scoring, there's been tons of high volume scorers, but the better players, the one's who truly carry teams significantly all do the other aspects that result in memorable playoff wins. They fill up a stat sheet, and perform on both ends of the court.

Enough of the who won the trade. Both team lost. Knicks still doing so.

I remember our playoff series. I remember that dunk. I remember his play against Boston. But what overshadowes those memories are the bad ones. JR elbowing people, STAT fuqing up his hand, Lin being at 85% so on and so on

So now it's JR fault the Knicks lost two games to Boston, and couldn't make it past Indiana ?
If not for Shumpert stealing and laying in in transition, stopping the bleeding, those Knicks probably lose game 6.
Also LeBron says hi, I took JR to the Finals twice.

Actually, it was very clearly tyson's fault. He was awful in that series and apparently had an "undisclosed illness" reported after the series ended. Easily would've knocked off IND if he was his normal DPOY self.

[Knickerbock]

Well this thread went off topic..

I think Horneck is a good coach to have for now.. He has handled the locker room well despite a very disappointing season. He has a positive personality.

[Dr. Detfink]

Speaking of coaching, Derek Fisher FINALLY admitted his side show distraction with a woman divorced from an NBA player hurt his credibility and respect with the players.

Confirms my belief that Fisher forced the Knicks hand with a messy situation he created. Sorry.