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How Long Do We Give Hornacek?

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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#21 » by Phish Tank » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:58 pm

he has two more years right?

Let him coach through next year. Preferrably, I'd like to see Melo gone. I wonder how he does coaching a squad with less "egos." He may fare better. If it's clearly not working out next season, then let him go at the end of the year.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#22 » by Jay10 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:05 pm

Phil, Carmelo (if he isn't traded or decides not to opt-out next summer), and Jeff's contracts all expire in 2 years.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#23 » by sushibear » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:12 pm

Damas wrote:
swisscheeseD wrote:Forget "How Long Do We Give", this thread should be re-titled "What Should We Give?"

I'm tired of blowing through coaches without ever properly putting them in the position to succeed. I'm no fan of Hornacek, be should be given the opportunity to take a young, up-and-coming team over from scratch, with no ego's and no distractions.

Part ways with Me7o, no band-aid moves in the off-season and remove the mole that is Rambis. I'd love to see Hornacek replace him with Alvin Gentry should he be fired in NO.

We aren't winning **** anyway...what's the worst that happens? Another tank season in another front-loaded draft? And another year off the salaries of Noah, LT?


Sorry but how are we going to part ways with Melo?


Easy ..they tell him we don't want you and hope he waives that ntc or you bench him and use him properly. Off the bench spot up shooter. Melo won't even settle for 6th man cuz of his ego so he will bolt. With the position we are in the draft we will either pick up a SF stud or a PG to work along side KP. Melo era is over either way next season. Yaaaaasssss
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#24 » by MP4LIFE » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:12 pm

As long as we give Phil.

Once Phil leaves he needs to be fired.

Not because he is a major problem but because he isn't very good.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#25 » by K P 6 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:14 pm

GONYK wrote:
K P 6 wrote:I think its **ed up to force the triangle on him. We couldn't even let him coach. the young guys lay well for him. Get rid of Melo and Rose and see what he can do.


This myth needs to die.

Phil basically let him do whatever he wanted offensively up until the AS break. We ran the Triangle less than 6 times a game. Offense wasn't a problem before and it isn't a problem now that we've gone back to the Triangle.

The problem was always defense, and that remains a problem.

Offense still has no flow although we score a lot. There's also confusion like Kp said. Agreed we need a defensive coordinator not names Kurt.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#26 » by N8isScofield » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:20 pm

I just think it's so hard to judge any coach in this environment and actually even more so since Phil arrived because no you have the specter of the triangle hanging over them.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#27 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:32 pm

swisscheeseD wrote:If I'm Dolan, I tell Phil that we will honor the full length of your contract, the same way we are honoring your 2nd Head Coach hire during your tender...if you want to fire him, i'm not paying anyone else...you can coach them.


i can't imagine anyone thinking horny had a fair shake this season. i'd think unless things look incompetently awful, he gets next season.

i agree with the no band-aid moves. but we need to define that. you have to field a team. there's a cap floor. that means sometimes you need to bring in a vet like courtney lee. if we're talking about a max vet who is not a key driver, then i'd look to avoid that too. but then, fans need to respect that we're on that kind of path.

people talk about noah being part of melo's timeline. truth be told, noah AND melo are on KP's development timeline. KP needs OGs early. they won't replace these OGs. but by the time their deals are done, KP should be ready to enter his prime and shoulder the team. same goes for if they draft the right running mate this year.

billy is a good complementary piece who should stick around. i feel the same way about baker, and i think phil & co. do too. randle will get an opportunity to see if he can be a roster guard. otherwise, changing of the guard is a transitional thing and regardless of his health, noah is the right kind of vet to have around for that. and crap on melo all we want, KP loves and values him.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#28 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:34 pm

swisscheeseD wrote:
Damas wrote:
swisscheeseD wrote:Forget "How Long Do We Give", this thread should be re-titled "What Should We Give?"

I'm tired of blowing through coaches without ever properly putting them in the position to succeed. I'm no fan of Hornacek, be should be given the opportunity to take a young, up-and-coming team over from scratch, with no ego's and no distractions.

Part ways with Me7o, no band-aid moves in the off-season and remove the mole that is Rambis. I'd love to see Hornacek replace him with Alvin Gentry should he be fired in NO.

We aren't winning **** anyway...what's the worst that happens? Another tank season in another front-loaded draft? And another year off the salaries of Noah, LT?


Sorry but how are we going to part ways with Melo?


It's called a trade, not sure if you've ever heard of it before. It's when two teams decide to go in different directions from either a business perspective or for basketball reasons. In most cases, you don't have to consider the feelings, family situation or desire to play (or not play) in certain markets...but for the few cases in which a player has what they call a "No Trade Clause", there is an opportunity in which a mutually beneficial situation can be amicable.


:lol: said player has to waive said clause. fug what two teams think.

if that were the case, melo might have been shipped off to the highest bidder like KG and pierce already. melo has total control over that situation. if he thinks the best thing for himself is to retire a knick at the end of his deal, nothing can change that.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#29 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:39 pm

sushibear wrote:
Damas wrote:
swisscheeseD wrote:Forget "How Long Do We Give", this thread should be re-titled "What Should We Give?"

I'm tired of blowing through coaches without ever properly putting them in the position to succeed. I'm no fan of Hornacek, be should be given the opportunity to take a young, up-and-coming team over from scratch, with no ego's and no distractions.

Part ways with Me7o, no band-aid moves in the off-season and remove the mole that is Rambis. I'd love to see Hornacek replace him with Alvin Gentry should he be fired in NO.

We aren't winning **** anyway...what's the worst that happens? Another tank season in another front-loaded draft? And another year off the salaries of Noah, LT?


Sorry but how are we going to part ways with Melo?


Easy ..they tell him we don't want you and hope he waives that ntc or you bench him and use him properly. Off the bench spot up shooter. Melo won't even settle for 6th man cuz of his ego so he will bolt. With the position we are in the draft we will either pick up a SF stud or a PG to work along side KP. Melo era is over either way next season. Yaaaaasssss


there you go again with that hope schidt.

worst case scenario, you insult a player who took a pay cut to stay and hope the organization could build a good team. said player does not waive NTC, and the well is poisoned from top-to-bottom.

easy to forget that KP wants melo around. disrespecting melo probably doesn't buy KP's loyalty going forward.

now is actually the time to NOT do fug schidt. the organization needs to try to start over amicably in the offseason. there will be some new highly touted kid to build with who also doesn't need to be exposed to bad business practices.

if you want melo gone, your best hope is that melo finds himself unhappy/unfulfilled in the offseason and decides to request and facilitate a trade. highly unlikely. any other play can backfire woefully.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#30 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:40 pm

Jay10 wrote:Phil, Carmelo (if he isn't traded or decides not to opt-out next summer), and Jeff's contracts all expire in 2 years.


the whole thing can start anew then if it's that bad. KP will be entering his prime and you might have a new young buck who is ready to run with him. everyone should play it cool for now. the fug schidt that's been done is done.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#31 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:49 pm

GONYK wrote:
K P 6 wrote:I think its **ed up to force the triangle on him. We couldn't even let him coach. the young guys lay well for him. Get rid of Melo and Rose and see what he can do.


This myth needs to die.

Phil basically let him do whatever he wanted offensively up until the AS break. We ran the Triangle less than 6 times a game. Offense wasn't a problem before and it isn't a problem now that we've gone back to the Triangle.

The problem was always defense, and that remains a problem.


agreed. horny can create an offensive system, but it needs to balance the game. the sets they ran in the first half worked for a while when everyone was fresh. but after a while, you could tell the poor floor balance (that EVERYONE notices now) did not suit a disorganized, lethargic group of guys (on the defensive end).

horny's style in phoenix is kind of tailor made for young, spry players. if you can run all night and hustle on both ends, then horny's inclinations can work. the triangle stuff makes sense at this time because it is an attempt to AT LEAST control the pace of the game and not get run out of the gym on defense/transition.

the best offense this group could run would be one that best suits its defensive capabilities/makeup. unfortunately, they don't seem to play with the intensity and focus that is necessary to succeed on that end of the floor as constructed.

melo doesn't need to be playing 3. maybe some spot minutes there in a big lineup. but if he's playing 34 minutes, 24 of them need to be at the 4. he also didn't look bad at small ball 5 last night. that was crafty on jeff's part. KP can split his time between 4 and 5 depending on the matchup.

ballhawk perimeter players are a priority. lance can play 3. holiday and lee can man the 2 just fine. baker is a solid backup PG. the team needs a lead guard who is going to pressure the ball with intention. rose ain't that guy. i don't think markelle fultz is that guy. i think lonzo could do it. i think frank could do it. maybe fox too. but if i'm the knicks, i am going OD on defensive-minded acquisitions from now on. if you don't play hard on D, then i'm not signing you, trading for you, nothing. we can do bad all by ourselves. :lol:
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#32 » by TheDavinciCHODE » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:02 pm

lol at people wanting to fire Hornacek.

Are you for real?

Should I rattle off the list of coaches that have had bad seasons when they've had bad teams?

Is it Hornaceks fault that this team is toxic?

Is it Hornaceks fault that there isn't enough talent to be a playoff team?

Is it Hornaceks fault that we're the worst defense in the league?

Is it Hornaceks fault that the president of the club insists on a style of the play that is both difficult to learn and outdated?

Is it Hornaceks fault that there's 90% roster turnover?

lol at this thread. It's really sad that people want to give proven coaches a single season with nothing much to work with as proving grounds for coaching ability.

Someone said no improvement in 30 games next season and he's gone?

What?

Might Hornacek not be a coach? Sure, I don't have a horse in the race. He might actually be a terrible coach for all I know.

What I do know is that Hornacek took a group of rejects and actually built a system tailored to them, played a modern style of ball, and won damn near 50 games in a tough West.

Isaiah Thomas before he was a legit star, Leandro Barbosa, Eric Bledsoe, Dragic, and the Morris twins made up the core of a 48-win Suns team that had no business winning 48 games in a tough Western Conference.

Fluke? Nah, top 10 offense AND average defense. SRS had them pinpointed exactly.

Got lucky on 3's? Nah, only the 8th best 3p% and 6th most makes

Unfair treatment with the whistles? Nope, only 9th most attempts

Intelligent defense with limited personnnel? YES. They gave up a ton of 2's for the sake of limiting 3's. They were one of the best defenses against the 3 ball in the league that year and limited opponents attempts well.

A style that maximized the players talents and minimized their weaknesses? YES.

See what I'm getting at?

Talent wins games in the NBA and coaching is only meant to be a supplement to it. Good coaching makes a differences, but it ultimately comes down to players. When Hornacek has had good players, he's made them better than the sum of their parts.

He's succeeded before in the NBA, and not with rosters full of HOF talent. It seems to me like the problem here isn't Jeff but some other player in the locker room. or players....or management...or organization...or game plan.

The best answer here is this organization put together a roster of spare parts that didn't fit and is divided into two distinct parts that don't mesh: win-now veteran specialists and young players looking to gain experience.

The former aren't nearly good enough to carry anyone anywhere and the latter shouldn't be expected to be anything but a 20ish win team looking to grow.

Trade Melo.

The end.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#33 » by earthmansurfer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:04 pm

We have this year and next years top 5 lotto pick. So, I give him at least a 2nd and maybe 3rd year to see what our rooks and FA's can do. We did well with KP, 3 top 5 picks in 3 years with Gaines is nice...

I just don't think this team as constructed (non running team), is for him. Yeah, I think Melo is getting traded. We will make up for Melo's skill and scoring being gone by getting up and down the court faster and playing better defense. We need players who can run and D it up.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#34 » by swisscheeseD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:05 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:I agree with the no band-aid moves. but we need to define that. you have to field a team. there's a cap floor. that means sometimes you need to bring in a vet like courtney lee. if we're talking about a max vet who is not a key driver, then i'd look to avoid that too. but then, fans need to respect that we're on that kind of path.


My definition of "no band-aid" moves is signing anybody in the off-season that is more of a "win-now" player, to a multi-year contract and that could block or stunt the development of our youth. We are nowhere near a "win-now" team there isn't a single player in FA, Steph Curry included, that will turn this team into a Contender.

I'd much rather see this franchise use its available cap space to take on salary through dumps that have additional future considerations / young players attached for the troubles of taking on the salary.

You say that "sometimes you need to bring on a vet like Courtney Lee". I say, so do other teams around the league who are looking for players like him to put them over the top. Why pay CLee $13mil the next 3 seasons when we aren't winning dick over that time, can pay a guy like Holiday less(who replicates his skill set and like Lee, a journeymen who is now starting to come on to his own), all while acquiring another pick/young asset? I have zero issues with keeping Lee, but we need to get into "stocking assets mode" while our young guys develop. As a core starts to form, we'll have even more assets at our disposal to fill needs around them.

I just don't see why anyone would want to pay anyone anything this Free Agency. The idea of wooing a Jrue Holiday or for some reason George Hill, paying them $30mil/yr for 4yrs, when we can use our Top 8 to select one who is cost-controlled in a stacked PG draft, just makes me sick to my stomach.

We need to do what good organizations do for a change.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#35 » by Dr. Detfink » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:18 pm

Last I checked, no one put a gun to Jeff Hornacek's head to take the coaching gig. DJ Jazzy Jeff wanted this gig.



SAME garbage that plagues the Knicks, plagued the Suns and led to Jeff's firing. Watch it.

So don't BS me that it's the triangle, it's Phil, It's Rambis...Jeff's teams ALWAYS have horrific ball handling, prone to slop, and definitely don't play defense!

Knicks are stuck with this chump for at least another 2 seasons. This is actually good because the Knicks need to tank again in order to get another top draft pick.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#36 » by MaseInYourFace » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:34 pm

I still would like to see what he can do when phil stops infantilizing him before I make any real judgements on him. Phil is the classic type A control freak for all his zen talk.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#37 » by moocow007 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:53 pm

To be quite fair to Hornacek I'm sure that it's hard to do your thing if your boss insists that you do something that you don't really know and then have a stooly basically stand over your shoulder as you try to do it. And this team is clearly poorly fitting. That said, not clear how much of the poor performance is his coaching (I'm sure some is). So really hard to say how much time to give him.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#38 » by moocow007 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:03 pm

GONYK wrote:
malik959 wrote:I strongly feel that a lot of this can't be placed on Horny. He was placed in a position to fail. Forced to run an offense that he had no knowledge of and like most of his players he had to learn on the fly. Had no time to develope a defense because he was stuck trying to understand the triangle. Didnt have two of his starters to have a full training camp and also preseason and those players have missed significant games due to injuries.

Then in order to run the triangle successfully you have to have a pass first guard and for some reason Phill got Rose. Maybe he was planning on having a losing season so we could draft high?

Then comes Melo. This team is not built for now and should be built around KP for the future. But with Melo we're stuck in limbo because this team is poorly built, not able to win now and not properly built for the future. This draft is really going to bring us to a new'direction.


Was offense the problem this season?


The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on individual ability (which is another thing that folks may not be giving you know who some credit for). From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that there is very little cohesiveness and/or effectiveness with their offense as a whole.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#39 » by GONYK » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:06 pm

moocow007 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
malik959 wrote:I strongly feel that a lot of this can't be placed on Horny. He was placed in a position to fail. Forced to run an offense that he had no knowledge of and like most of his players he had to learn on the fly. Had no time to develope a defense because he was stuck trying to understand the triangle. Didnt have two of his starters to have a full training camp and also preseason and those players have missed significant games due to injuries.

Then in order to run the triangle successfully you have to have a pass first guard and for some reason Phill got Rose. Maybe he was planning on having a losing season so we could draft high?

Then comes Melo. This team is not built for now and should be built around KP for the future. But with Melo we're stuck in limbo because this team is poorly built, not able to win now and not properly built for the future. This draft is really going to bring us to a new'direction.


Was offense the problem this season?


The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on pure talent. From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that the offensive as a collective is not a good one.


I don't disagree, but in terms of the reason our record is what it is, I don't think it is because we didn't have an offensive system.

Our offense might be inefficient and depend on individual scoring, but I can name you playoff teams who are worse than us.

Our defense is front and center as the biggest problem.

I think an analysis that leads to our record being what it is because because Jeff had to run the Triangle (which he did NOT do) is a very inaccurate one.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#40 » by moocow007 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:31 pm

GONYK wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
Was offense the problem this season?


The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on pure talent. From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that the offensive as a collective is not a good one.


I don't disagree, but in terms of the reason our record is what it is, I don't think it is because we didn't have an offensive system.

Our offense might be inefficient and depend on individual scoring, but I can name you playoff teams who are worse than us.

Our defense is front and center as the biggest problem.

I think an analysis that leads to our record being what it is because because Jeff had to run the Triangle (which he did NOT do) is a very inaccurate one.


Their defense is definitely the bigger issue no question but I don't think we had much in the way of an offensive system. Like I said, our system was basically geared around 3 18+ppg scorers that can score on their own to carry the bulk of the offensive burden.

What Derrick Rose said about the Knicks offense (before Jackson started spending more time showing them the Triangle) being "random offense" IMO is a correct statement of the teams "offensive system".

If most folks get what they want (which is no more Rose and no more Anthony) then I think the offense will become just as big if not a bigger problem. So I don't want their defensive issues to mask what could very well be an equally big issue if/when Rose and Anthony go.

I absolute think folks are not giving enough credit to the offensive ability of the maligned duo. Folks that think that the few snippets of "good offensive flow" that they've seen when Anthony and/or Rose wasn't playing can actually translate into a "good offense" without them IMO is fooling themselves. At the end of the day, even top notch offensive systems need guys that can score and create on their own.

As far as Jeff having to run the Triangle, I'm honestly not sure what he's trying to run (and that's part of the problem). Whether it's because he's just not a very good head coach (with no real system) or because he's trying to compromise his system with another system. They aren't running what he ran in Phoenix. They aren't running what I would consider the Triangle.

I don't think there's been clear communication between him and Jackson on what Jeff should be doing (and that could be part of the problem). If there is and Jackson is insisting that Jeff run the Triangle then I can tell you that Jeff is not good at it cause they are just piss poor at understanding the concepts of it (and you can only blame Anthony and Rose so much since Porzingis appears just as lost if not more so).
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