OFFICIAL: Welcome BACK to New York THJr (4/71m)

[BKlutch]

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

We wont have max salary space in 2019. 2020 we could be there. This is assuming we don't make any trades, Melo opts in, etc. Here's my back of the napkin math of our current situation:

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

Are you an accountant, or just good at math? Thanks for the detailed numbers!

It looks like by 2020, if we can't get one star and one really good role player for $47M, we've not done our work well.

There is also the possibility that some team wants Noah's expiring contract going into his last year, because some teams may still have cap issues (people tend to spend, right?). Also, is it possible that if an arm or a leg falls off Noah in 2018, he would come off of our cap because of the injury (like Bosh)?

[Basketball1981]

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

We wont have max salary space in 2019. 2020 we could be there. This is assuming we don't make any trades, Melo opts in, etc. Here's my back of the napkin math of our current situation:

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

Thanks for the detailed description.

What I read from this is: If Hardaway does not explode into a great player that is worth the contract...well then this contract will bite us in the ass big time as it essentially kills any chance at a premier FA for the next 3 years.

[Amsterdam]

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

We wont have max salary space in 2019. 2020 we could be there. This is assuming we don't make any trades, Melo opts in, etc. Here's my back of the napkin math of our current situation:

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

Nice work.

[dakomish23]

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

We wont have max salary space in 2019. 2020 we could be there. This is assuming we don't make any trades, Melo opts in, etc. Here's my back of the napkin math of our current situation:

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

Thanks for the detailed description.

What I read from this is: If Hardaway does not explode into a great player that is worth the contract...well then this contract will bite us in the ass big time as it essentially kills any chance at a premier FA for the next 3 years.

Certainly for 2018 & pretty much for 2019 assuming nothing changes and Melo opts in.

That's why I don't get why folks would be against getting a top pick this year and/or next year.

Rookie scale contracts are at a premium. You get these guys locked in at approximately 1/10th their FA value (for a lower pick, higher picks it's more like 1/5th) who could be key contributors, if not foundation pieces to your teams.

Do all draft picks pan out? Of course not. But when they do, it puts your organization in a great position to add talent. I still can't believe we haven't bought picks in back to back years.

Some others have said that if we lose a lot of games this year that means KP didnt develop. Nothing could be father from the truth. Look at all the UTA kids who developed when their team sucked. Look at all the OKC guys who developed when their team sucked.

We have a stud and instead of focusing on his development and adding guys on his timeline, we locked ourselves in when we should be shopping.

I would of stopped at 14 & would have had a team option on year 4.

[Prez]

Think this signing got way more crap than it deserved. I remember people dumping on Middleton's deal at the time, then he broke out at 24 and it was a steal. THJ just a year older and looks ready to do something similar. Good raw stats, good impact numbers, and talent/upside is there. Think this is one of those deals the media rips that turns out to be good.

[Basketball1981]

Think this signing got way more crap than it deserved. I remember people dumping on Middleton's deal at the time, then he broke out at 24 and it was a steal. THJ just a year older and looks ready to do something similar. Good raw stats, good impact numbers, and talent/upside is there. Think this is one of those deals the media rips that turns out to be good.

That's kinda ironic that you bring up Middleton. Middleton two years ago had already proved to be very solid. After his rookie season he had two seasons where he averaged 12points and 13.4 points along with 4.4 rebounds on 45% from the field 40% from 3 and 86% from the FT line. On top of that he proved to be a solid defender. He also never shot below 44% from the field in any of the 3 seasons.
He had a mediocre rookie season but two very promising seasons after that. On top of that he was one year younger than Hardaway but signed for 5years/70mill. which equals 14mill. per season. On top of that the deal was front heavy , leaving the Bucks with less salary committed in the later years of his contract. So essentially, a player that proved to be more solid than Hardaway, signed for a significantly lesser deal.

Hardaway completely sucked during his time here and really had just one good season. Didn't he also get demoted during his first year in Atlanta? On top of that he couldn't beat out a 36year old Kyle Korver for the starting spot. Korver had to be traded so that Hardaway got inserted into the starting line-up. Yet the Knicks will pay him 18mill. per season on average. Let's face it, if Hardaway does not explode, this contract will not only go down as one of the bad, immovable contracts in the league, it will also hinder any realistic chances at strong FAs down the line.

Some fans were saying that no big time FA would want to join the Knicks anyways, but I think recent history proved that wrong. Melo wanted to join and now Irving also seems to have the Knicks as his top choice. And that's the question Knick fans have to ask themselves when defending this contract: Is Hardaway worth that? In two years when Irving is a FA and the Knicks among his top choices, but unable to sign him outright due to salary commitments...would you not curse out the front office?
IMHO, Hardaway was just never worth such a big commitment. I mean, what is the best case scenario we are looking here at? 18points per game with below average defense?

I thought that when Phil Jackson got fired that Steve Mills (or whoever inherited that position) was in a terrific position. Fans and media asserted no pressure on the Knicks and no one was expecting anything other than tanking and getting a high pick. That is a position a Knick GM hadn't found himself in for over a decade. Just preserve the salary, make no big commitments, tank and hope for a top 5 or top 3 pick and everyone would applaud that. No pressure at all. But somehow , Mills managed to hand out 2 contracts within a couple days that sent knick fans into heated decisions while the media and the rest of the NBA were calling out those moves as quote "baffling, shocking and plain idiotic".

[Amsterdam]

Watch on YouTube

https://hoopshabit.com/2017/08/28/new-york-knicks-tim-hardaway-jr-working-hard-money/


........Hardaway Jr. will be faced with the opportunity to prove himself as a leader heading into the 2017-18 season as the Knicks are in rebuild mode. The new contract may have solidified him as the starting shooting guard moving forwardm but his ability to grow as a complete player and help guide a young and inexperienced backcourt will be huge.

The Knicks are currently carrying some young point guards in first round pick Frank Ntilikina and second-year player Ron Baker, along with veteran backup Ramon Sessions.

Hardaway Jr. seems to have taken the young star from France under his wing in his most recent training video compilation. The two can be seen practicing in-game situation drills and growing a much-needed chemistry with one another. It’s also worth noting that current Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony was a participant in the workouts as well while awaiting word on his fate with the team.

[F N 11]

I wanna thank Tim for already seeming like a leader working out with his Rook.

[god shammgod]

I wanna thank Tim for already seeming like a leader working out with his Rook.

they're all working out with melo at his gym

[F N 11]

I wanna thank Tim for already seeming like a leader working out with his Rook.

they're all working out with melo at his gym

Before this one with Melo was released him and Frank had a workout together by themselves.

[Amsterdam]

Watch on YouTube

Melo, Ntilikina and Hardaway scrimmage.

BTW, Melo looks strong.

[god shammgod]

I wanna thank Tim for already seeming like a leader working out with his Rook.

they're all working out with melo at his gym

Before this one with Melo was released him and Frank had a workout together by themselves.

i saw it. it was at his gym and with his trainer.

[KnicksGod]

I think keeping Melo hurts Timmy the most *potentially*. And getting him off on the wrong foot in this second stint ... would be a bad idea. But I'd still keep Melo if nobody gives us a good deal. Just carefully manage and limit Melo's involvement.

[F N 11]

I think keeping Melo hurts Timmy the most *potentially*. And getting him off on the wrong foot in this second stint ... would be a bad idea. But I'd still keep Melo if nobody gives us a good deal. Just carefully manage and limit Melo's involvement.

Its all good. He's loved by teammates and players around the league. It was just a rough situation with him and the knicks.

[Fat]

[TankCommander17]

Thank you good sir. This shall be good.

[Newyorknick94]

Has tim taken an open shot this season? seems like everything he throws up is heavily contested jumpers.

[robillionaire]

Has tim taken an open shot this season? seems like everything he throws up is heavily contested jumpers.

it's mostly just contested 3s because the offense is stagnant due to not having a PG who can do anything, so they just kick it out to him after the play blows up and let him fire up bad shots as the shot clock is about to expire

[Dr. Detfink]

You don't need to pay a guy 4/$71M to be John Paxson essentially knock down open jumpers.

Fact is the Knicks beat the competition, thinking this guy could develop into a #2 option to KP. He's more of a #4.

Hardaway Jr can't develop his own shot. He doesn't have KP's unique size nor skillset. He needs a PG and he's impotent w/o one.

Shockingly the Knicks didn't notice that this guy wasn't a starter during his time in ATL until injuries forced their hand. Hawks play a similar system to the Spurs. That's why he thrived.

[Jalen Bluntson]

We all know it was a risk. Some tried to look at the bright side. It's only 3 games so....I will calm down.

Billy played better than KP though. Is Jeff gonna play him more?