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Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD

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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#361 » by Mecca » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:32 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:I know I'm reaching, and the salary caps aren't the same but didn't Klay Thompson sign a 4/70 a few seasons ago?

I'm not saying Timmy has to reach his level, but its something to think about


Almost have to put it in context Thug. That was prior to salary cap booming.


I don't mind THJ at that contract. He's ascending, young, and plays excellent in transition, which is what Horny thrives in running.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#362 » by Mecca » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Wow my grammar is atrocious when I type while I drive.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#363 » by Jose7 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:40 pm

Olapdipo the same cat who shot 34/24 percent in 36 minutes per game this playoffs... STOP it yall. STOP.

edit: my point is that to say player x is clear cut better than TH jr is false based on the numbers.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#364 » by malik959 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:44 pm

Disgruntled wrote:
drekwins wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:For Timmy to outplay his contract he'd have to be near all star caliber in production. I don't see it, of course would be happy if he does it.


If he turns into prime Jason Terry, is that enough? Or, how about Cuttino Mobley? There's a lot of tiers and factors. It's definitely possible for him to get there.



Mobley was a good defender.

70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#365 » by Disgruntled » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:45 pm

Jose7 wrote:Olapdipo the same cat who shot 34/24 percent in 36 minutes per game this playoffs... STOP it yall. STOP.

edit: my point is that to say player x is clear cut better than TH jr is false based on the numbers.



Well then go around the boards and ask other team's fans who they rather have on their team...Oladipo or Hardaway...I guarantee you that 99% will say Oladipo and it is not even close.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#366 » by Disgruntled » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:51 pm

malik959 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:
drekwins wrote:
If he turns into prime Jason Terry, is that enough? Or, how about Cuttino Mobley? There's a lot of tiers and factors. It's definitely possible for him to get there.



Mobley was a good defender.

70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.


18mill. a year is still a lot of money , even in today's NBA. There is no question that some teams have made some bad moves in recent past....look at it this way....someone posted a list of like 10 nba contracts that are supposed to be worse than Hardaway's or comparable to Hardaway's.....their fans and teams today would LOVE to get rid of those contracts...Johnson just attached a second pick to Mozgov...just to get rid of Mozgov.....Teams around the league were reluctant to take on Love who makes 23mill. a year.....
Those teams are banging their heads against a wall...desperately trying to shed those deals with no trade partners available...
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#367 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:55 pm

malik959 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:
drekwins wrote:
If he turns into prime Jason Terry, is that enough? Or, how about Cuttino Mobley? There's a lot of tiers and factors. It's definitely possible for him to get there.



Mobley was a good defender.

70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#368 » by malik959 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:01 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
malik959 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:

Mobley was a good defender.

70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.

Sorry, when I said mid level I meant average pay (Mid Pay). What use to be $10mil per is now 70-80m.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#369 » by Disgruntled » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:06 pm

Talking about Baker...what in the world has that guy done to justify giving out 5mill.?

Seriously, my conclusion from these signings is just that Larry Brown was just completely, 100% right when he publicly stated that "Steve Mills has no clue in regards to basketball."....that to me is the only explanation why someone can believe that it is a good idea to invest 23mill. a year into Baker and Hardaway.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#370 » by drekwins » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:16 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
malik959 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:

Mobley was a good defender.

70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The Knicks used their room exception...which is 4.3mil per. The non-taxpayer mid-level is 8.4 million and projected to be over 10 million by the 4th year of Tim's contract. Also, keep in mind, Tim is a starter/top 6-7 rotation guy that's only 24. The mid-level exception includes rookie scale salaries, non-rotation players and end of the bench scrubs. So, it's not really a fair barometer in judging average salary. To determine that, you'd have to only count rotation players and exclude rookie contracts. His contract really isn't THAT bad. The max is going to be 40 million per year very soon.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#371 » by Big Chan » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:16 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
malik959 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:

Mobley was a good defender.

70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The mid level is 8 mill a year now, that's the "average salary" of an nba player now. what we used is the mid level you can use if you are under the cap at any time during the off season. I forget what they call it now
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#372 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:21 pm

drekwins wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
malik959 wrote:70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The Knicks used their room exception...which is 4.3mil per. The non-taxpayer mid-level is 8.4 million and projected to be over 10 million by the 4th year of Tim's contract. Also, keep in mind, Tim is a starter/top 6-7 rotation guy that's only 24. The mid-level exception includes rookie scale salaries, non-rotation players and end of the bench scrubs. So, it's not really a fair barometer in judging average salary. To determine that, you'd have to only count rotation players and exclude rookie contracts. His contract really isn't THAT bad. The max is going to be 40 million per year very soon.

Really all that needs to be said.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#373 » by Billy Goat » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:22 pm

Big Chan wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
malik959 wrote:70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The mid level is 8 mill a year now, that's the "average salary" of an nba player now. what we used is the mid level you can use if you are under the cap at any time during the off season. I forget what they call it now


There was no upside in giving Baker a player option in his contract.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#374 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:24 pm

Big Chan wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
malik959 wrote:70Mil is closer to a mid level pay then it is to All Star. Wake up people All Stars are getting 150-200, not 70. Nobody is saying that Curry and Harden are 100mil overpaid.

We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The mid level is 8 mill a year now, that's the "average salary" of an nba player now. what we used is the mid level you can use if you are under the cap at any time during the off season. I forget what they call it now

Our mid level was 4.5mil, not sure why there is a disagreement here.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#375 » by Disgruntled » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:37 pm

BTW does anybody know if it was Perry that handed out those ridiculous contracts to Biyombo and Fornier?
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#376 » by nykballa2k4 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:49 pm

drekwins wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:

That's one of the biggest problems I have with the contract. It is literally impossible for Hardaway to outplay it. He would have to average 20points and play strong defense to justify that. Even if he averages 18-20 points and remains the dame miserable defender that he is , he will still be way overpaid and no team will touch that contract.

Think about how teams were unwilling to trade for a player of Love's caliber due to his contract. Hardaway will be a knick until his contract expires and if we are lucky and he plays good....he'll be overpaid by only 4 mill. a year.

Another fun comparison:
Allan Houston who was also known for being pretty 1 dimensional though great at that dimension managed to average 3 rpg and 2.4 apg. Those numbers would seem paltry, but are almost double Timmy's.


Allan Houston, in his first full season as a Knick, averaged 14.8pts, 3.0reb and 2.2ast in 33.1 min per game at 25 years old. Tim Hardaway averaged 14.5, 2.8reb and 2.3 ast in 27.3min per game at the age of 24 years old.

Give Tim a chance people...

Bit of a cherry pick there as Houston's previous season, when he was 24 like Hardaway, he averaged 19.7ppg, 3.7 boards, 3 assists.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#377 » by Knickstape1214 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:52 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote:
drekwins wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:Another fun comparison:
Allan Houston who was also known for being pretty 1 dimensional though great at that dimension managed to average 3 rpg and 2.4 apg. Those numbers would seem paltry, but are almost double Timmy's.


Allan Houston, in his first full season as a Knick, averaged 14.8pts, 3.0reb and 2.2ast in 33.1 min per game at 25 years old. Tim Hardaway averaged 14.5, 2.8reb and 2.3 ast in 27.3min per game at the age of 24 years old.

Give Tim a chance people...

Bit of a cherry pick there as Houston's previous season, when he was 24 like Hardaway, he averaged 19.7ppg, 3.7 boards, 3 assists.


Per 36 at age 24:

THJr - 19.1, 3.7 rebounds, 3 assists
AH - 18.9, 3.5 rebounds, 2.9 assists
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#378 » by whocares1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:02 am

Disgruntled wrote:BTW does anybody know if it was Perry that handed out those ridiculous contracts to Biyombo and Fornier?


Supposedly he did.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#379 » by drekwins » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:15 am

Thugger HBC wrote:
drekwins wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The Knicks used their room exception...which is 4.3mil per. The non-taxpayer mid-level is 8.4 million and projected to be over 10 million by the 4th year of Tim's contract. Also, keep in mind, Tim is a starter/top 6-7 rotation guy that's only 24. The mid-level exception includes rookie scale salaries, non-rotation players and end of the bench scrubs. So, it's not really a fair barometer in judging average salary. To determine that, you'd have to only count rotation players and exclude rookie contracts. His contract really isn't THAT bad. The max is going to be 40 million per year very soon.

Really all that needs to be said.


It really doesn't... That's exactly the problem with the fans. Everything is in absolutes. Everything is either a 10 - Great or a 0 - Terrible. There is a wide gap of in-between. Consider this, how many players off their rookie contracts, with starting potential, change teams for less than the max? It doesn't happen. Restricted free agency is set up in a way that allows all teams to keep their young talent. Yet, the knicks got a young starter with very good efficiency numbers (who also seems to work hard on his game) for an amount that's significantly less. It just doesn't happen in today's NBA.

Typically, players with potential do not reach free agency until their 7th-8th year in the league. By then, they're 26, 27 or 28. In order to get a 24 year old in free agency, right off of his rookie deal, that's actually starter material, without even going close to the max is unheard of. You have to understand, the great prospects are not available until much later in their career. You really couldn't expect much better... maybe 10 mill less in total contract. That's really not material if he plays well.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#380 » by Big Chan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:17 am

Thugger HBC wrote:
Big Chan wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:We just used our mid level to sign Ron Baker which came out to under 5 mil a season, so that's not accurate at all.


The mid level is 8 mill a year now, that's the "average salary" of an nba player now. what we used is the mid level you can use if you are under the cap at any time during the off season. I forget what they call it now

Our mid level was 4.5mil, not sure why there is a disagreement here.


The mid level is 8, you can't compare our mid level to the actual mid level which is an average players salary. But the difference between 5 and 8 doesn't really change the argument much when comparing Timmys 17 mill, so I agree with you there. Timmy got paid a lot and we are looking for him to get better, that's the only way it makes sense.

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