We need to stick to the plan. Rebuild. Lose Games. Aim for 2019/2020

MadGrinch · Post #21 » by **MadGrinch** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:41 pm

the whole draft is going to save us stuff is a fairy tale

no top team relies on it because its based on your top players being crappy for years ...or hurt

no top team in the league intentionally stayed bad to load up on draft picks except cleveland ...and without lebron they would still be a lottery team

to prove it another way , the last time a team to draft its best player and then went on to win 50 games with that player as its best player was 2010

whose got 7-8 years ?

and thats if he works out

also out of the best teams were built mostly without top 5 picks

top picks arent the answer because if your team got bad enough to get them it means your front office isnt good enough to make the kind of decisions that would capitalize on them anyway.

Post #22 » by **duetta** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:45 pm

dakomish23 wrote:I don't understand that last paragraph. What do you mean?

No picks, you can't draft anyone. You can only overpay and further mortgage your future.

NotPhilJackson · Post #23 » by **NotPhilJackson** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:00 pm

Great post - only thing I take issue with is the grandparents you'd like us to target 2 years from now. I'd rather see us go for Tobias Harris, Klay Thompson, Ricky Rubio type players in 2019. These guys are going to be in their prime at the time of 2019 free agency, not well past it like the likes of Lebron, Melo & even Westbrook dare I say it (his explosiveness IS his game).

I honestly think it's 2020 that better fits our timeline. Frank will be an actual man by then, KP will actually be entering his prime around this time as well. We'll have drafted another lotto pick and presumably 2 more #10-20. We can then assess our needs and target the likes of Kyrie, Kawhi, Barnes, Whiteside, Butler. Younger players who we can build with. I have bolded the BEST fits as of our current roster now. Two way SF & Glass cleaner/Rim protector.

We could go into the 2020 season looking like:
Frank/Rubio/2019 pick
THJ/Baker/Dotson
Harris or Kawhi/2018 pick/Kuz
KP6/Willy/2020 pick
Whiteside/2020 pick/Willy

Bill Pidto · Post #24 » by **Bill Pidto** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:02 pm

One great reason for tanking is because the Knicks already have Porzingis. He's a major piece to the puzzle. Now you're looking to add complimentary pieces and of course, more stars, through the draft if you can.

But what other teams who have tanked and failed didn't have was a Porzingis. They couldn't land the franchise talent. It took the Wolves quite a while. They finally hit on KAT and they're back on the rise. A couple more losing seasons has done them well after drafting KAT.

Doesn't make sense to blow your load now just to say you've added more stars. You can't just ignore the price tag. Both in a trade and on your cap. Not only is Kyrie a sizeable contract now, but in 2 years, when he's 27 going on 28, he'll want a deal that pays him around 40 million a year until he's Melo's age. And you want to trade picks and players like Frank and Willy for him?

He's leaving LeBron's team so he can lead his own team. So already, you're putting a cap on how great and how prominent KP or anyone else can be for this team. Because by trading assets for Kyrie, you're giving into Kyrie's dream of being the man in NY, and are anointing HIM the leader, for better or for worse.

Knowing what his deficiencies are, despite his talent, it's frustrating for me to see the fans and even the front office do such a flip-flop on what the team's philosophy was supposed to be. They drafted Frank over DSJ for his size/length, defensive prowess and team-first mentality. Kyrie is a 6'2" glorified combo guard. Shoot-first PG who is begging for the limelight, who doesn't play defense, and is hurt often.

But he's 25 and a champion...

Again, he'll be 31 getting paid 40 million +, while Porzingis is being paid God knows what and complaining about touches as the Knicks struggle to win a first round series, and Frank is off turning into another Giannis of sorts in Cleveland for a fraction of the price.

There ain't no LeBron here. Put Isiah Thomas on the Cavs and he may have had been to 3 straight finals, too. Even if Isiah was 25, I wouldn't trade the farm for him and then pay him a super max deal and tell KP this is your running mate. You guys are F'ing crazy.

Post #25 » by **DOT** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:10 pm

Just play the young kids, and don't get mad if they win too many games for us to get a top pick

Blockwatcher · Post #26 » by **Blockwatcher** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:14 pm

K-DOT wrote:Just play the young kids, and don't get mad if they win too many games for us to get a top pick

Exactly.
Hope the ping pong balls fall our way.
Hope the team comes together and gels.
And hope we lose every game by 2 while being competitive.

Hope is our plan

Post #27 » by **dakomish23** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:24 pm

nyczlegacy wrote:only team to tank for 10 years and still have nothing to show for it LMAO

We tanked 1 year and got a top 5 prospect in the entire league

Post #28 » by **dakomish23** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:35 pm

MadGrinch wrote:the whole draft is going to save us stuff is a fairy tale

no top team relies on it because its based on your top players being crappy for years ...or hurt

no top team in the league intentionally stayed bad to load up on draft picks except cleveland ...and without lebron they would still be a lottery team

to prove it another way , the last time a team to draft its best player and then went on to win 50 games with that player as its best player was 2010

whose got 7-8 years ?

and thats if he works out

also out of the best teams were built mostly without top 5 picks

top picks arent the answer because if your team got bad enough to get them it means your front office isnt good enough to make the kind of decisions that would capitalize on them anyway.

There's no guarantee but at least this way you also get an asset you could trade if they don't become a stud

Post #29 » by **dakomish23** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:36 pm

NotPhilJackson wrote:Great post - only thing I take issue with is the grandparents you'd like us to target 2 years from now. I'd rather see us go for Tobias Harris, Klay Thompson, Ricky Rubio type players in 2019. These guys are going to be in their prime at the time of 2019 free agency, not well past it like the likes of Lebron, Melo & even Westbrook dare I say it (his explosiveness IS his game).

I honestly think it's 2020 that better fits our timeline. Frank will be an actual man by then, KP will actually be entering his prime around this time as well. We'll have drafted another lotto pick and presumably 2 more #10-20. We can then assess our needs and target the likes of Kyrie, Kawhi, Barnes, Whiteside, Butler. Younger players who we can build with. I have bolded the BEST fits as of our current roster now. Two way SF & Glass cleaner/Rim protector.

We could go into the 2020 season looking like:
Frank/Rubio/2019 pick
THJ/Baker/Dotson
Harris or Kawhi/2018 pick/Kuz
KP6/Willy/2020 pick
Whiteside/2020 pick/Willy

Isn't Draymond Giannis and AD all FAs in 2020?

Post #30 » by **Deeeez Knicks** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:38 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
nyczlegacy wrote:only team to tank for 10 years and still have nothing to show for it LMAO

We tanked 1 year and got a top 5 prospect in the entire league

Yeah, thats really the only season we really tanked enough to get a top 5 pick.

adjacent2bench · Post #31 » by **adjacent2bench** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:41 pm

CANiLIVE wrote:You dudes are delusional, the 76ers got lucky as hell tanking does not work. Look at the pelicans, cavs after lebron left, raptors after Vince carter, You need to bulid a culture and foundation, name me 3 all stars knicks have drafted since Ewing I'll wait...

How many of our OWN first round picks we had since Ewing?

CANiLIVE · Post #32 » by **CANiLIVE** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:42 pm

adjacent2bench wrote:
CANiLIVE wrote:You dudes are delusional, the 76ers got lucky as hell tanking does not work. Look at the pelicans, cavs after lebron left, raptors after Vince carter, You need to bulid a culture and foundation, name me 3 all stars knicks have drafted since Ewing I'll wait...

How many of our OWN first round picks we had since Ewing?

It's public record it's a lot and a lot of bench players and guys that just wasn't good at all..

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Sark · Post #33 » by **Sark** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:44 pm

CANiLIVE wrote:You dudes are delusional, the 76ers got lucky as hell tanking does not work. Look at the pelicans, cavs after lebron left, raptors after Vince carter, You need to bulid a culture and foundation, name me 3 all stars knicks have drafted since Ewing I'll wait...

Joakim Noah, Gordon Hayward, Lamarcus Aldridge (all picks that the Knicks traded away).

CANiLIVE · Post #34 » by **CANiLIVE** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Sark wrote:
CANiLIVE wrote:You dudes are delusional, the 76ers got lucky as hell tanking does not work. Look at the pelicans, cavs after lebron left, raptors after Vince carter, You need to bulid a culture and foundation, name me 3 all stars knicks have drafted since Ewing I'll wait...

Joakim Noah, Gordon Hayward, Lamarcus Aldridge (all picks that the Knicks traded away).

What? So does the nets get credit for this past draft? No that means nothing the actual players the knicks drafted have done nothing, kp fell from the basketball gods and that took how many years since the mid 80's? I'll wait

MadGrinch · Post #35 » by **MadGrinch** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:52 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:the whole draft is going to save us stuff is a fairy tale

no top team relies on it because its based on your top players being crappy for years ...or hurt

no top team in the league intentionally stayed bad to load up on draft picks except cleveland ...and without lebron they would still be a lottery team

to prove it another way , the last time a team to draft its best player and then went on to win 50 games with that player as its best player was 2010

whose got 7-8 years ?

and thats if he works out

also out of the best teams were built mostly without top 5 picks

top picks arent the answer because if your team got bad enough to get them it means your front office isnt good enough to make the kind of decisions that would capitalize on them anyway.

There's no guarantee but at least this way you also get an asset you could trade if they don't become a stud

its not an asset if the player cant play ...and it takes years to accomplish

nedleeds · Post #36 » by **nedleeds** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Tanking works when you pick Duncan, Le Flop, and the turds needed to trade for Love and lure Le Flop back. It's also correct when there is no other path. Should have never signed Noah, THjr or Lee. We should have done everything to suck last year in a stacked draft. The ceiling on last years team was the 7th seed. Total waste of a season. Pull the **** bandaid off last summer and we might have Fultz, Ball or Tatum.

NotPhilJackson · Post #37 » by **NotPhilJackson** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:01 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
NotPhilJackson wrote:Great post - only thing I take issue with is the grandparents you'd like us to target 2 years from now. I'd rather see us go for Tobias Harris, Klay Thompson, Ricky Rubio type players in 2019. These guys are going to be in their prime at the time of 2019 free agency, not well past it like the likes of Lebron, Melo & even Westbrook dare I say it (his explosiveness IS his game).

I honestly think it's 2020 that better fits our timeline. Frank will be an actual man by then, KP will actually be entering his prime around this time as well. We'll have drafted another lotto pick and presumably 2 more #10-20. We can then assess our needs and target the likes of Kyrie, Kawhi, Barnes, Whiteside, Butler. Younger players who we can build with. I have bolded the BEST fits as of our current roster now. Two way SF & Glass cleaner/Rim protector.

We could go into the 2020 season looking like:
Frank/Rubio/2019 pick
THJ/Baker/Dotson
Harris or Kawhi/2018 pick/Kuz
KP6/Willy/2020 pick
Whiteside/2020 pick/Willy

Isn't Draymond Giannis and AD all FAs in 2020?

Nah, Dray is 2020 but I hate that mouth breather. 2021 Greek Freak & Anthony Davis become FA - that's an amazing FA class too. Best probably of them all for what we want to be doing - I wouldn't even scoff at waiting until then to make our big move. I'd LOVE to go all in and offer 2 max contracts to Giannis and AD, that would be a wet dream. Other notable 2021 FA include: Drummond, Rudy Golbert, Beal, Otto Porter, Derozen, Dame, CJ, Adams and more.

Giannis is who I want most. Followed by AD of course but I think the Celtics are going to steal him. From there, I'd be okay with Drummond or Adams coming on board too. We'd be clear of Hardaway's contract (if he doesn't work out) that year too, that will greatly help our push for Giannis. Almost makes you wonder if Giannis was the back of Mills mind when he signed Hardaway to that big 4 year deal (helps us maintain cap space for 2021).

Post #38 » by **dakomish23** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:07 pm

MadGrinch wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:the whole draft is going to save us stuff is a fairy tale

no top team relies on it because its based on your top players being crappy for years ...or hurt

no top team in the league intentionally stayed bad to load up on draft picks except cleveland ...and without lebron they would still be a lottery team

to prove it another way , the last time a team to draft its best player and then went on to win 50 games with that player as its best player was 2010

whose got 7-8 years ?

and thats if he works out

also out of the best teams were built mostly without top 5 picks

top picks arent the answer because if your team got bad enough to get them it means your front office isnt good enough to make the kind of decisions that would capitalize on them anyway.

There's no guarantee but at least this way you also get an asset you could trade if they don't become a stud

its not an asset if the player cant play ...and it takes years to accomplish

UTA just traded a player that wasn't panning out and a late pick to get into the lottery and steal what looks to be a good player.

adjacent2bench · Post #39 » by **adjacent2bench** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:22 pm

CANiLIVE wrote:
adjacent2bench wrote:
CANiLIVE wrote:You dudes are delusional, the 76ers got lucky as hell tanking does not work. Look at the pelicans, cavs after lebron left, raptors after Vince carter, You need to bulid a culture and foundation, name me 3 all stars knicks have drafted since Ewing I'll wait...

How many of our OWN first round picks we had since Ewing?

It's public record it's a lot and a lot of bench players and guys that just wasn't good at all..

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Let's take a look

2001-no first round pick :banghead:

2002-pick traded for McDyess :banghead:

2003 deep draft but still only ended up with 9th pick and bust. Rarely do 9th picks end up as all stars. Had Knicks tanked properly they'd end up with all star or even Lebron
2004-pick traded :banghead:

2005-8th pick-yes coulda took Bynum but drafted Lee as well who was a 2 time All-Star
2006-pick swapped to Chicago that coulda got us Aldridge. Used 20th pick to get Balkman :banghead:

2007-Another swapped pick, coulda gotten Noah :banghead:

...used it on Chandler who was a great pick for his slot
2008-had our own pick but didn't tank-Drafted Gallo 6th who was a damn good pick for his slot
2009-again, had our own pick, didn't tank and ended up picking 8th, can say this is the one time where we really messed up in the draft as we coulda got Jrue or Derozan..probably woulda been traded anyway to make space for Lebron :banghead:

2010-pick traded to Utah (Marbury trade) who used pick to draft Hayward. George picked right after :banghead:

2011-Knicks finally out of the lottery-draft Iman outside of the lottery. Butler and Isaiah Thomas were picked after but most teams slept on them
2012-pick traded to rockets :banghead:

2013-used 24th pick on THJ
2014-pick traded :banghead:

2015-Knicks finally tank right, get first top 5 pick since 80s and with that comes top prospect KP :nod:

2016-pick swapped then traded for Bargnani :banghead:

2017-Knicks go win-now mode, still suck and end up with 8th pick and get Frank. Haven't seen him play yet so jury still out.

Knicks aren't the best drafters but I'd say for where we draft we've been pretty above average. We've only had one top 5 pick during this whole era of suck. Had we kept some of our picks or tanked correctly we definitely could have had multiple all stars on the team.

CANiLIVE · Post #40 » by **CANiLIVE** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:31 pm

adjacent2bench wrote:
CANiLIVE wrote:
adjacent2bench wrote:
How many of our OWN first round picks we had since Ewing?

It's public record it's a lot and a lot of bench players and guys that just wasn't good at all..

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Let's take a look

2001-no first round pick
2002-pick traded for McDyess
2003 deep draft but still only ended up with 9th pick and bust. Rarely do 9th picks end up as all stars. Had Knicks tanked properly they'd end up with all star or even Lebron
2004-pick traded
2005-8th pick-yes coulda took Bynum but drafted Lee as well who was a 2 time All-Star
2006-pick swapped to Chicago that coulda got us Aldridge. Used 20th pick to get Balkman
2007-Another swapped pick, coulda gotten Noah ...used it on Chandler who was a great pick for his slot
2008-had our own pick but didn't tank-Drafted Gallo 6th who was a damn good pick for his slot
2009-again, had our own pick, didn't tank and ended up picking 8th, can say this is the one time where we really messed up in the draft as we coulda got Jrue or Derozan..probably woulda been traded anyway to make space for Lebron
2010-pick traded to Utah (Marbury trade) who used pick to draft Hayward. George picked right after
2011-Knicks finally out of the lottery-draft Iman outside of the lottery. Butler and Isaiah Thomas were picked after but most teams slept on them
2012-pick traded to rockets
2013-used 24th pick on THJ
2014-pick traded
2015-Knicks finally tank right, get first top 5 pick since 80s and with that comes top prospect KP
2016-pick swapped then traded for Bargnani
2017-Knicks go win-now mode, still suck and end up with 8th pick and get Frank. Haven't seen him play yet so jury still out.

Knicks aren't the best drafters but I'd say for where we draft we've been pretty above average. We've only had one top 5 pick during this whole era of suck. Had we kept some of our picks or tanked correctly we definitely could have had multiple all stars on the team.

There are no ifs, that list is what the knicks have been, when have the spurs warriors and other good teams picked in the top 5, it's how you draft and develop in your teams culture and foundation.

Tanking is literally just making the franchise more laughable and more of a joke. Losing on purpose is never something a fan base should cheer for. You should want to see your team improve every year. Name me 1 team outside the sixers who just lost on purpose, and damn near every sixers top pick has major injury concerns.

If you have to rely on top 5 picks to become a good franchise your moving in the wrong direction and on top of that if your picking top 5 what fa's are coming to ny, it literally makes no sense.