Knicks offseason in review on the trade board

[JBreezeNY]

I'm getting getting pissed with this Thjr contract.

Jesus Christ for the last fu*king time.

The Hawks were in the playoffs.

We were in the LOTTERY.

Thjr was arguably the Hawks best player last season.

The Knicks are not only rebuilding but SG is a huge position of need.

Thjr not only improved immensely defensively he turned into a damn good overall player in Atlanta.

Not to mention he's YOUNG.

A young SG plus potential to continue improving = paying for talent.

The Hawks were going to match at 50 Mill.

If the Knicks offered at anywhere from 51 Mill to 60 Mill the Hawks were going to match.

So looking at the combination of us being in the lottery, us really wanting Thjr back, Thjr having potential, having to outbid for a player that the Hawks really wanted to bring back, guess what?

You outbid.

Enough with this sh*t already.

[HartfordWhalers]

Jesus Christ for the last fu*king time.
...
Thjr was arguably the Hawks best player last season.
...
Enough with this sh*t already.

Have people really been saying that Tim Hardaway Jr was better than Milsap last season?

[JBreezeNY]

Jesus Christ for the last fu*king time.
...
Thjr was arguably the Hawks best player last season.
...
Enough with this sh*t already.

Have people really been saying that Tim Hardaway Jr was better than Milsap last season?

Yea i've heard that.

[HartfordWhalers]

Jesus Christ for the last fu*king time.
...
Thjr was arguably the Hawks best player last season.
...
Enough with this sh*t already.

Have people really been saying that Tim Hardaway Jr was better than Milsap last season?

Yea i've heard that.

This seems surprising. Mind sharing where?

[JBreezeNY]

Have people really been saying that Tim Hardaway Jr was better than Milsap last season?

Yea i've heard that.

This seems surprising. Mind sharing where?

In person which surprised me, I asked if he was maybe the second best and they said nah.

I went to a couple hawk games in Atlanta this year and thought Millsap was still the best but

[j4remi]

According to Zach Lowe it was true around Christmas at least:

"They're already shopping Tim Hardaway for second round picks because they don't want to pay him," said Lowe.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244498/Hawks-Trying-To-Trade-Tim-Hardaway-Jr-For-2nd-Round-Picks

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

[j4remi]

Points of agreement with the general consensus in the review:
- The move from Phil to new leadership should have been from jump and not midway through the offseason. It's hard to see the offseason as anything but disjointed after the philosophy shifted somewhat when Mills came in.

- Tim Hardaway and Ron Baker were both overpays and that's worth criticism though I do think some cats got a bit dramatic on that tip.

- The NBD approach to Rose leaving by most reviewers is fair. Yes the Knicks had a hole because he left, but the shoes weren't anything crazy to fill because of how poor Rose's vision and defensive play wound up being. I do think fantasy drafters should keep an eye on him though.

- W/L calls are right around my guess once Melo's outta here.

Points of contention or further discussion:
- Wondering if these reviews were submitted before the Sessions deal? It's not a great way to address our PG need but it's a stop gap move for low cost and I think it at least shows an attempt to address that hole.

- DSJ >>> Frank because DSJ had a good summer league isn't being fair to the kid who didn't compete there. I do think DSJ is more NBA ready skills wise but the Knicks have made their rebuilding goal clear; so I don't think that's a point to argue against the Knicks. If you're arguing that DSJ will be better for his career, okay, but again that's so speculative this early that it seems unfair.

- While I agree that the Knicks should be shopping guys like Lee, Lance and KOQ for future considerations; depending on what's been offered, I can see waiting until after a Melo deal is finalized so that they know their needs before letting go of solid players on reasonable contracts. There's a possibility that the deadline will yield better offers for glue types anyway.

- Easily overlooked but the Knicks had a second pick in the second round in Jaramaz who is a draft and stash type combo guard. So on the draft list, his name deserves to be on there imo.

- I do think the grades are fairly incomplete as this offseason will be defined by the Melo trade (or lack thereof) moreso than anything else at least in the short term.

[cl2117]

According to Zach Lowe it was true around Christmas at least:

"They're already shopping Tim Hardaway for second round picks because they don't want to pay him," said Lowe.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244498/Hawks-Trying-To-Trade-Tim-Hardaway-Jr-For-2nd-Round-Picks

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

I would say that if EVERYTHING goes right and THJ becomes the guy he was post-ASB for the Hawks then his contract won't look that bad. But even with those stats I still don't think he's a 4/70 player.

That's the scary thing. The upside of this signing is that everything goes well and it's only a moderate overpay.

[Greenie]

Almost all of them thinks we shoulda picked Smith lol....

I'm praying Frank balls out.

Not even Frank believes he will ball out:

“What I know is maybe I’m not — not ready — but I’m not going to be great now, but what I’m going to do for sure is work a lot,” he said. “I’m going to work very hard. I will trust the process, work hard and try to be the best me in the future. Maybe it will take time, maybe not. We’ll figure it out.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/sports/basketball/frank-ntilikina-new-york-knicks.html

WTF?

Lawd!

[GONYK]

According to Zach Lowe it was true around Christmas at least:

"They're already shopping Tim Hardaway for second round picks because they don't want to pay him," said Lowe.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244498/Hawks-Trying-To-Trade-Tim-Hardaway-Jr-For-2nd-Round-Picks

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

THJ's breakout began at the end of January

[Greenie]

I'm getting getting pissed with this Thjr contract.

Jesus Christ for the last fu*king time.

The Hawks were in the playoffs.

We were in the LOTTERY.

Thjr was arguably the Hawks best player last season.

The Knicks are not only rebuilding but SG is a huge position of need.

Thjr not only improved immensely defensively he turned into a damn good overall player in Atlanta.

Not to mention he's YOUNG.

A young SG plus potential to continue improving = paying for talent.

The Hawks were going to match at 50 Mill.

If the Knicks offered at anywhere from 51 Mill to 60 Mill the Hawks were going to match.

So looking at the combination of us being in the lottery, us really wanting Thjr back, Thjr having potential, having to outbid for a player that the Hawks really wanted to bring back, guess what?

You outbid.

Enough with this sh*t already.

Now you know damn well posters here do not watch other teams.

People who do, know Timmy can ball.

[Greenie]

According to Zach Lowe it was true around Christmas at least:



https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244498/Hawks-Trying-To-Trade-Tim-Hardaway-Jr-For-2nd-Round-Picks

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

I would say that if EVERYTHING goes right and THJ becomes the guy he was post-ASB for the Hawks then his contract won't look that bad. But even with those stats I still don't think he's a 4/70 player.

That's the scary thing. The upside of this signing is that everything goes well and it's only a moderate overpay.

Stop it.

The Hawks were so impressed with dudes play that they traded Korver without blinking an eye. They moved dudes out of his way and thus you saw the uptick in numbers. Timmy was balling. I was watching him.

[cl2117]

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

I would say that if EVERYTHING goes right and THJ becomes the guy he was post-ASB for the Hawks then his contract won't look that bad. But even with those stats I still don't think he's a 4/70 player.

That's the scary thing. The upside of this signing is that everything goes well and it's only a moderate overpay.

Stop it.

The Hawks were so impressed with dudes play that they traded Korver without blinking an eye. They moved dudes out of his way and thus you saw the uptick in numbers. Timmy was balling. I was watching him.

He was playing well, but he wasn't balling. His stats post-ASB were basically Evan Fournier's who is also on 4/70 and is also overpaid.

So best case scenario you have Evan Fournier.

[vallen]

Yea i've heard that.

This seems surprising. Mind sharing where?

In person which surprised me, I asked if he was maybe the second best and they said nah.

I went to a couple hawk games in Atlanta this year and thought Millsap was still the best but

*coughs BS

[vallen]

we overpaid in FA, and reached in the draft.

for some reason this board thinks we had a good off-season, while at the same time predict a top 3 spot in the lottery.

[GONYK]

Yea i've heard that.

This seems surprising. Mind sharing where?

In person which surprised me, I asked if he was maybe the second best and they said nah.

I went to a couple hawk games in Atlanta this year and thought Millsap was still the best but

This guy had a breakdown where he said that THJ was more productive than Milsap

https://www.reddit.com/r/AtlantaHawks/comments/6lkkaf/why_the_atlanta_hawks_should_gamble_on_tim/

THJ have it all, baby.
Tim Hardaway is a special type of player. On the Knicks he was known as a pure scorer, and on the Hawks he hasn't been much at all, except inconsistent. At least that's what some folks will tell you.. but let me direct your attention to some STATS.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612737/players-traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

Concern 1: THJ doesn't make the team better.
STAT: Tim Hardaway Junior had the highest plus minus on the Atlanta Hawks outside of the GOAT baby giraffe and the criminally underrated Lamar Patterson. That's higher than Paul Millsap and the rest of our bench.
When Timmy is off the court, our ORTG plummets from 106 to 98, while our DRTG stays about the same.

Concern 2: Tim is too inconsistent
STAT: in the 48 regular season games THJ played after 01/01/2017 (henceforth referred to as T-Day), he scored less than 10 points in only 7 of those games. In 24 out of 48 games, THJ shot above 40% on 3s. In only 11 games did THJ earn a TS% less than 50%.

Concern 3: Tim is a bad defender
STAT: Tim has a Defensive Rating of 103.1, which was higher than Thabo, Kent, and Dennis. The only players who played big minutes and actually had a higher DRTG were Paul and Delaney. Tim is also 6'6", which makes him the perfect size to guard other 2s. He just needs some more time at Hawks University before he comes out a plus defender.

I'm not buying that THJ is now an all-star, but I appreciate the work that went into this analysis

[j4remi]

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

THJ's breakout began at the end of January

That's true; but rather than try and pinpoint a benchmark, I just oversimplified to either the ASB since the numbers don't shift much and it makes it easier for anybody to read the line and pull the exact same measures.

I would say that if EVERYTHING goes right and THJ becomes the guy he was post-ASB for the Hawks then his contract won't look that bad. But even with those stats I still don't think he's a 4/70 player.

That's the scary thing. The upside of this signing is that everything goes well and it's only a moderate overpay.

100% agree that the scary thing is that Hardaway has yet to earn this type of contract over a full season but I do think that at 18, 4 and 4 plus being close to the timeline of the younger guys (still only 25 years old) it'd be enough production for the money. Assuming we run closer to Hornacek's Phoenix offense this season and considering the lack of definite scorers, I think he's got a shot to hit numbers that justify the pay.

[cl2117]

I would say that if EVERYTHING goes right and THJ becomes the guy he was post-ASB for the Hawks then his contract won't look that bad. But even with those stats I still don't think he's a 4/70 player.

That's the scary thing. The upside of this signing is that everything goes well and it's only a moderate overpay.

100% agree that the scary thing is that Hardaway has yet to earn this type of contract over a full season but I do think that at 18, 4 and 4 plus being close to the timeline of the younger guys (still only 25 years old) it'd be enough production for the money. Assuming we run closer to Hornacek's Phoenix offense this season and considering the lack of definite scorers, I think he's got a shot to hit numbers that justify the pay.

Age is certainly a saving grace here. At least he will productive to some extent over the course of the contract. I said the same about the Waiters signing. Both might be overpaid, but at least you're overpaying them for their prime.

[JBreezeNY]

This seems surprising. Mind sharing where?

In person which surprised me, I asked if he was maybe the second best and they said nah.

I went to a couple hawk games in Atlanta this year and thought Millsap was still the best but

*coughs BS

Some people have a life outside of here fam but next time I go I'll bring a camera to record.

This seems surprising. Mind sharing where?

In person which surprised me, I asked if he was maybe the second best and they said nah.

I went to a couple hawk games in Atlanta this year and thought Millsap was still the best but

This guy had a breakdown where he said that THJ was more productive than Milsap

https://www.reddit.com/r/AtlantaHawks/comments/6lkkaf/why_the_atlanta_hawks_should_gamble_on_tim/

THJ have it all, baby.
Tim Hardaway is a special type of player. On the Knicks he was known as a pure scorer, and on the Hawks he hasn't been much at all, except inconsistent. At least that's what some folks will tell you.. but let me direct your attention to some STATS.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612737/players-traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

Concern 1: THJ doesn't make the team better.
STAT: Tim Hardaway Junior had the highest plus minus on the Atlanta Hawks outside of the GOAT baby giraffe and the criminally underrated Lamar Patterson. That's higher than Paul Millsap and the rest of our bench.
When Timmy is off the court, our ORTG plummets from 106 to 98, while our DRTG stays about the same.

Concern 2: Tim is too inconsistent
STAT: in the 48 regular season games THJ played after 01/01/2017 (henceforth referred to as T-Day), he scored less than 10 points in only 7 of those games. In 24 out of 48 games, THJ shot above 40% on 3s. In only 11 games did THJ earn a TS% less than 50%.

Concern 3: Tim is a bad defender
STAT: Tim has a Defensive Rating of 103.1, which was higher than Thabo, Kent, and Dennis. The only players who played big minutes and actually had a higher DRTG were Paul and Delaney. Tim is also 6'6", which makes him the perfect size to guard other 2s. He just needs some more time at Hawks University before he comes out a plus defender.

I'm not buying that THJ is now an all-star, but I appreciate the work that went into this analysis

Fantastic analysis wow

I think he's more promise than certified stud but we shall see.

[dakomish23]

According to Zach Lowe it was true around Christmas at least:



https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244498/Hawks-Trying-To-Trade-Tim-Hardaway-Jr-For-2nd-Round-Picks

The only thing I'd throw out on this discussion is that it's probably worth asking whether the Hawks changed shifted opinions on THJ as the season wore on. They made a move to open time for the kid and he did respond with strong post-ASB numbers. Trust me though, I didn't like the signing because of the dollar amount and still side eye it but I do think if Timmy hits his post-ASB numbers and/or continues to improve that contract won't look bad.

I would say that if EVERYTHING goes right and THJ becomes the guy he was post-ASB for the Hawks then his contract won't look that bad. But even with those stats I still don't think he's a 4/70 player.

That's the scary thing. The upside of this signing is that everything goes well and it's only a moderate overpay.

Since January 29th, when he started 24 of 34 games:

18.0 PPG 3.7 RPG 2.9 APG 0.8 SPG
46% FG% 36% 3PT% 84% FT

Is that production very shy of 18 mil per?

I wouldn't of done the deal at that price and wouldn't have done the deal without a team option. But his production on the high end seems closer to the pay rate. We'll see if he can stay at that rate of production.