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Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched

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Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#1 » by E-Balla » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:42 pm

I looked at on off ratings for our team (yeah I know its only 6 games but bball reference finally released them and I was curious to see how it lined up with that I've seen live and said in the game threads - hint it 100% did).

Offensively Jarrett Jack and KOQ look amazing for obvious reasons - their counterparts are Sessions (trash) and Kancer (trash). +12.5 for KOQ and +13.7 for Jack. No one else seems to move the needle much in either way (KP's biggest issue on the floor is we become way worse at ORBing when he's on the floor - expected imo but it blunts his offensive impact).

Something else that caught my eye offensively?
Here's the pace of our 3 PGs:
Jack - 95.2
Sessions - 94.0
Frank - 101.0!

The young fella is running when he's at point. Problem is our TOV% with him on the floor is 24.4% (a quarter of our possessions are turnovers) meanwhile with Jack (an actual vet PG) its 13% and with Sessions (who's basically a 2) its 19.4%. Frank is also by far the fastest paced player on the team so it really is him pushing the ball. If he learns to push the ball and run the offense like Jack in halfcourt sets he'll be a force.

Defensively our most impactful player (I'll say I'll told you so here) is Timmy by far. Our defense when he's on the bench is terrible but with him on the floor we're good (104.7 DRTG vs 112.2 DRTG). Frank is the only person close in terms of defensive impact (102.3 DRTG vs 108.3 DRTG) and that's also expected. Frank's impact is bolstered by fluky rebounding numbers though. Tim's numbers can legitimately hold up all year on that end and his numbers in Atlanta were similar. KP our 7-3 SF (I mean PF) stops shots but loses all his impact from that with his negative impact on the boards.

The worst defensive guys should be obvious to anyone that watches. Ramon Sessions by far in front (back?) and a 3 way tie between Beasley, LFT, and Anus Kancer after that. Sessions being so low is a lot of bad luck combined with being bad pressuring the ball and playing with Kanter a lot. Beasley actually has good luck and should be way worse because he is a turnstile and they score at will when he's out. LFT is overly aggressive but we know that. Forces turnovers but at the cost of allowing easy buckets all the time. Kanter's issue is everything especially (and this will surprise boxscore watchers) rebounding. Opponents grab 49% of boards when he's on the floor and 43% when he isn't. Most of that difference is given up on the offensive boards where teams grab 26% of offensive boards with him on the floor and 17% without him. This isn't something that's a result of the young season too last year teams grabbed 4% more of ORBs with him on the floor and through his whole career its been like that. He gets his numbers but that means little when he's not boxing out. Who woulda thunk it?

Now in terms of overall impact there's a clear ranking among guys especially guys that play a lot. At the top there's Jack, O'Quinn, Beasley, Frank, and Timmy with Timmy being the only high minute guy that's played all 6 games able to make enough of an impact to separate himself from the shipwreck that is Ramon Sessions. A lot of the positive from Jack, Frank, and Beasley comes from not sharing the floor with Sessions (our offense with Sessions at point was tragic). That should work itself out as the season continues.

In the middle we have KP, Lee, and Doug. Their numbers are mediocre but at this point that mainly just means they're weighed down by our worst players like everyone else aside from Timmy who's defense makes him a consistent impact player. In a few weeks the offensive impact of these 3 should raise a lot as long as Sessions stays out the rotation.

At the bottom we have Kanter (-17.1) who along with Ramon Sessions (-41.5), and LFT (-32.2) seems to be an obvious weight holding us back. Unfortunately unlike Sessions who's been benched now and Lance who plays for 10 minutes every other night Kanter keeps playing. Every game its crazy looking at the +/- of the rest of the starting lineup and his. For example here's the +/- of our starting 5 vs Cleveland:
Timmy +22
Lee +21
KP +21
Jack +22
Kanter +6

Here's the Pistons game:
KP -5 (in 34 minutes)
Timmy -7 (in 34 minutes)
Sessions -11 (in 33 minutes)
Lee -5 (in 29 minutes)
Kanter -9 (in 24 minutes)

With Kanter off the floor and Tim on it we're a +11.8 team. With Tim and Kanter on we're a -1.7 team. With KP and Kanter we're a -4.7 and with KP minus Kanter we're a +8.8.

We went through this last year how much longer are we going to act like KP + Willy isn't a great combo? In case you forgot on last year's team Willy was 2nd in on/off rating and on court rating among all players over 1000 minutes (Justin Holiday was 1st in both categories and KP was 3rd). But that's just a 6 game overview. Maybe Jeff will figure it out instead of playing Kanter and Noah 48 minutes combined a night and dooming us to 25-30 wins.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#2 » by NYKAL » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 pm

E-Balla wrote:I looked at on off ratings for our team (yeah I know its only 6 games but bball reference finally released them and I was curious to see how it lined up with that I've seen live and said in the game threads - hint it 100% did).

Offensively Jarrett Jack and KOQ look amazing for obvious reasons - their counterparts are Sessions (trash) and Kancer (trash). +12.5 for KOQ and +13.7 for Jack. No one else seems to move the needle much in either way (KP's biggest issue on the floor is we become way worse at ORBing when he's on the floor - expected imo but it blunts his offensive impact).

Something else that caught my eye offensively?
Here's the pace of our 3 PGs:
Jack - 95.2
Sessions - 94.0
Frank - 101.0!

The young fella is running when he's at point. Problem is our TOV% with him on the floor is 24.4% (a quarter of our possessions are turnovers) meanwhile with Jack (an actual vet PG) its 13% and with Sessions (who's basically a 2) its 19.4%. Frank is also by far the fastest paced player on the team so it really is him pushing the ball. If he learns to push the ball and run the offense like Jack in halfcourt sets he'll be a force.

Defensively our most impactful player (I'll say I'll told you so here) is Timmy by far. Our defense when he's on the bench is terrible but with him on the floor we're good (104.7 DRTG vs 112.2 DRTG). Frank is the only person close in terms of defensive impact (102.3 DRTG vs 108.3 DRTG) and that's also expected. Frank's impact is bolstered by fluky rebounding numbers though. Tim's numbers can legitimately hold up all year on that end and his numbers in Atlanta were similar. KP our 7-3 SF (I mean PF) stops shots but loses all his impact from that with his negative impact on the boards.

The worst defensive guys should be obvious to anyone that watches. Ramon Sessions by far in front (back?) and a 3 way tie between Beasley, LFT, and Anus Kancer after that. Sessions being so low is a lot of bad luck combined with being bad pressuring the ball and playing with Kanter a lot. Beasley actually has good luck and should be way worse because he is a turnstile and they score at will when he's out. LFT is overly aggressive but we know that. Forces turnovers but at the cost of allowing easy buckets all the time. Kanter's issue is everything especially (and this will surprise boxscore watchers) rebounding. Opponents grab 49% of boards when he's on the floor and 43% when he isn't. Most of that difference is given up on the offensive boards where teams grab 26% of offensive boards with him on the floor and 17% without him. This isn't something that's a result of the young season too last year teams grabbed 4% more of ORBs with him on the floor and through his whole career its been like that. He gets his numbers but that means little when he's not boxing out. Who woulda thunk it?

Now in terms of overall impact there's a clear ranking among guys especially guys that play a lot. At the top there's Jack, O'Quinn, Beasley, Frank, and Timmy with Timmy being the only high minute guy that's played all 6 games able to make enough of an impact to separate himself from the shipwreck that is Ramon Sessions. A lot of the positive from Jack, Frank, and Beasley comes from not sharing the floor with Sessions (our offense with Sessions at point was tragic). That should work itself out as the season continues.

In the middle we have KP, Lee, and Doug. Their numbers are mediocre but at this point that mainly just means they're weighed down by our worst players like everyone else aside from Timmy who's defense makes him a consistent impact player. In a few weeks the offensive impact of these 3 should raise a lot as long as Sessions stays out the rotation.

At the bottom we have Kanter (-17.1) who along with Ramon Sessions (-41.5), and LFT (-32.2) seems to be an obvious weight holding us back. Unfortunately unlike Sessions who's been benched now and Lance who plays for 10 minutes every other night Kanter keeps playing. Every game its crazy looking at the +/- of the rest of the starting lineup and his. For example here's the +/- of our starting 5 vs Cleveland:
Timmy +22
Lee +21
KP +21
Jack +22
Kanter +6

Here's the Pistons game:
KP -5 (in 34 minutes)
Timmy -7 (in 34 minutes)
Sessions -11 (in 33 minutes)
Lee -5 (in 29 minutes)
Kanter -9 (in 24 minutes)

With Kanter off the floor and Tim on it we're a +11.8 team. With Tim and Kanter on we're a -1.7 team. With KP and Kanter we're a -4.7 and with KP minus Kanter we're a +8.8.

We went through this last year how much longer are we going to act like KP + Willy isn't a great combo? In case you forgot on last year's team Willy was 2nd in on/off rating and on court rating among all players over 1000 minutes (Justin Holiday was 1st in both categories and KP was 3rd). But that's just a 6 game overview. Maybe Jeff will figure it out instead of playing Kanter and Noah 48 minutes combined a night and dooming us to 25-30 wins.



Do this with Willy as well if you want to convince anyone. These stats in a vacuum mean nada
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#3 » by poeman » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:46 pm

For all of the defensive mishaps, Kanter has been a beast on the boards and down low. If he can keep guys in front of him, he would be all-star worthy
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#4 » by NoLayupRule » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:53 pm

the eye test tells me that Kanter really helps KP get his shots

so does KOQ but Kanters offensive ability inside keeps a defender honest


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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#5 » by E-Balla » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:56 pm

NYKAL wrote:

Do this with Willy as well if you want to convince anyone. These stats in a vacuum mean nada

I did last year 100 times when saying he should play over Noah and the response was heavy sarcasm until he actually started playing and played well. Not rehashing those threads again you can look it up if you want to see and next time contribute to the thread instead of **** posting.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#6 » by E-Balla » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:57 pm

poeman wrote:For all of the defensive mishaps, Kanter has been a beast on the boards and down low. If he can keep guys in front of him, he would be all-star worthy

He has but he's still the worst rebounding C we have because he doesn't box out.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#7 » by IllmaticHandler » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:58 pm

E-Balla wrote:I looked at on off ratings for our team (yeah I know its only 6 games but bball reference finally released them and I was curious to see how it lined up with that I've seen live and said in the game threads - hint it 100% did).

Offensively Jarrett Jack and KOQ look amazing for obvious reasons - their counterparts are Sessions (trash) and Kancer (trash). +12.5 for KOQ and +13.7 for Jack. No one else seems to move the needle much in either way (KP's biggest issue on the floor is we become way worse at ORBing when he's on the floor - expected imo but it blunts his offensive impact).

Something else that caught my eye offensively?
Here's the pace of our 3 PGs:
Jack - 95.2
Sessions - 94.0
Frank - 101.0!

The young fella is running when he's at point. Problem is our TOV% with him on the floor is 24.4% (a quarter of our possessions are turnovers) meanwhile with Jack (an actual vet PG) its 13% and with Sessions (who's basically a 2) its 19.4%. Frank is also by far the fastest paced player on the team so it really is him pushing the ball. If he learns to push the ball and run the offense like Jack in halfcourt sets he'll be a force.

Defensively our most impactful player (I'll say I'll told you so here) is Timmy by far. Our defense when he's on the bench is terrible but with him on the floor we're good (104.7 DRTG vs 112.2 DRTG). Frank is the only person close in terms of defensive impact (102.3 DRTG vs 108.3 DRTG) and that's also expected. Frank's impact is bolstered by fluky rebounding numbers though. Tim's numbers can legitimately hold up all year on that end and his numbers in Atlanta were similar. KP our 7-3 SF (I mean PF) stops shots but loses all his impact from that with his negative impact on the boards.

The worst defensive guys should be obvious to anyone that watches. Ramon Sessions by far in front (back?) and a 3 way tie between Beasley, LFT, and Anus Kancer after that. Sessions being so low is a lot of bad luck combined with being bad pressuring the ball and playing with Kanter a lot. Beasley actually has good luck and should be way worse because he is a turnstile and they score at will when he's out. LFT is overly aggressive but we know that. Forces turnovers but at the cost of allowing easy buckets all the time. Kanter's issue is everything especially (and this will surprise boxscore watchers) rebounding. Opponents grab 49% of boards when he's on the floor and 43% when he isn't. Most of that difference is given up on the offensive boards where teams grab 26% of offensive boards with him on the floor and 17% without him. This isn't something that's a result of the young season too last year teams grabbed 4% more of ORBs with him on the floor and through his whole career its been like that. He gets his numbers but that means little when he's not boxing out. Who woulda thunk it?

Now in terms of overall impact there's a clear ranking among guys especially guys that play a lot. At the top there's Jack, O'Quinn, Beasley, Frank, and Timmy with Timmy being the only high minute guy that's played all 6 games able to make enough of an impact to separate himself from the shipwreck that is Ramon Sessions. A lot of the positive from Jack, Frank, and Beasley comes from not sharing the floor with Sessions (our offense with Sessions at point was tragic). That should work itself out as the season continues.

In the middle we have KP, Lee, and Doug. Their numbers are mediocre but at this point that mainly just means they're weighed down by our worst players like everyone else aside from Timmy who's defense makes him a consistent impact player. In a few weeks the offensive impact of these 3 should raise a lot as long as Sessions stays out the rotation.

At the bottom we have Kanter (-17.1) who along with Ramon Sessions (-41.5), and LFT (-32.2) seems to be an obvious weight holding us back. Unfortunately unlike Sessions who's been benched now and Lance who plays for 10 minutes every other night Kanter keeps playing. Every game its crazy looking at the +/- of the rest of the starting lineup and his. For example here's the +/- of our starting 5 vs Cleveland:
Timmy +22
Lee +21
KP +21
Jack +22
Kanter +6

Here's the Pistons game:
KP -5 (in 34 minutes)
Timmy -7 (in 34 minutes)
Sessions -11 (in 33 minutes)
Lee -5 (in 29 minutes)
Kanter -9 (in 24 minutes)

With Kanter off the floor and Tim on it we're a +11.8 team. With Tim and Kanter on we're a -1.7 team. With KP and Kanter we're a -4.7 and with KP minus Kanter we're a +8.8.

We went through this last year how much longer are we going to act like KP + Willy isn't a great combo? In case you forgot on last year's team Willy was 2nd in on/off rating and on court rating among all players over 1000 minutes (Justin Holiday was 1st in both categories and KP was 3rd). But that's just a 6 game overview. Maybe Jeff will figure it out instead of playing Kanter and Noah 48 minutes combined a night and dooming us to 25-30 wins.



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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#8 » by tleikheen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:00 pm

eye test for me is 3 straight wins for the Knicks ...been along time for that to happen
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#9 » by Knickstape1214 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:00 pm

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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#10 » by 3toheadmelo » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:01 pm

but he's hakeem rodman tho

well done sir 8-)
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#11 » by Thugger HBC » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:03 pm

Kanter is making things easier out there for KP. The numbers are what they are, but I wouldn't want KP having to do that dirty work in the paint like Kanter does. He doesn't protect his space well, but if that shot is missed I trust Kanter to battle for that board. And on offense dude is a load for the opponent to handle.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#12 » by Johnny Firpo » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:03 pm

Way too early for that. Heck, 20 games into the season, it would still be early.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#13 » by Knicksfan1992 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:07 pm

Isn't it known that NBA.com has much more accurate on/off splits? Wouldn't it be more prudent to use those? Not that i'm disputing what you're saying, I happen to agree, but showcasing Kanter a little bit helps us move him so it's whatever to me. What I'm confused by are the Baker inactives unless he's actually hurt. With the way we're playing defense now by blitzing everything he would only help...
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#14 » by adjacent2bench » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:10 pm

What I like about Kanter is he helps the Knicks stay in the game early. Feel like he gets about 3 buckets every first quarter. At this point I like him as a starter. Plus his offensive rebounding has been crucial.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#15 » by vallen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:10 pm

im ok with Kanter. even in the games we lost, hes been very consistent on what he does. we know hes a liability on defense. its a coaches job to play players to their strengths, and thats whats been happening. hes been solid paired next to KP, and grateful when we go on those stretches we dont score, hes almost automatic down low against anyone in the league. and does anyone offensive rebound better then this guy ? something that helps drastically on a team of jump shooters. you need an offensive rebounder next to KP, and we have a beast at that.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#16 » by vallen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:12 pm

wrong thread
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#17 » by Long2s » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:13 pm

Thank you E-balla, I don't need advanced stats when I've been watching for 20+ years, but it's good to have those stats back up the eye test.

And the eye test is that Kanter is a net negative who only plays for his stats, who would rather get in position for a rebound than contest a shot.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#18 » by Knicksfan1992 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:15 pm

Wow according to NBA.com we're 10 points better offensively per 100 possessions without Kanter and 7 points better defensively. It's early but that isn't a good sign... We're also 8 points better offensively with Baker which again confuses me why he's racking up DNP's smh
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#19 » by Phish Tank » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:20 pm

My only worry with benching kanter is that you’d pretty much have to not play him. I fear that if he comes off the bench, we’d lose or blow any leads our starters work hard to build.

Problem is that kanter can still be quite productive as an offensive player. And his presence can be offset by our other starters


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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#20 » by Ignitowsky » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:21 pm

I appreciate the effort put into the statistics gathering, but it's other people have pointed out, using the eye test Kanter helps us more when he is on the floor then he does when he is on the bench. He brings intangibles that aren't measurable. he's a beast off the offense of glass and I think his presence helps KP out a lot. he's also been playing better on defense. Certainly not great But better than his reputation would have you believe.
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