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Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched

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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#261 » by reub » Mon Nov 6, 2017 6:21 am

leventuysal wrote:Enes +20 tonight vs. the Pacers.
Please explain.


Simple. He's good.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#262 » by boomann21 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 7:32 am

That was a good trade. Enes Kanter is exactly the type of player and personality KP needs next to him in the trenches. If he starts to finish consistently around the rim the world better watch out.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#263 » by YouthMovement » Mon Nov 6, 2017 8:11 am

leventuysal wrote:Enes +20 tonight vs. the Pacers.
Please explain.


single game +/- is a pretty random stat
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#264 » by falcon107 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 8:56 am

boomann21 wrote:That was a good trade. Enes Kanter is exactly the type of player and personality KP needs next to him in the trenches. If he starts to finish consistently around the rim the world better watch out.

He almost always finishes consistently around the rim. Always from Utah to OKC and now in NYK, when he was given the ball and minutes. The problem is his defense, was always his defense.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#265 » by reub » Mon Nov 6, 2017 4:34 pm

We have a tremendous young core developing with Kanter, KP, Frank, THJr, Dotson, Willy, even McBuckets. All 25 and younger. You gotta like our future!
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#266 » by Knickstape1214 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 4:36 pm

falcon107 wrote:
boomann21 wrote:That was a good trade. Enes Kanter is exactly the type of player and personality KP needs next to him in the trenches. If he starts to finish consistently around the rim the world better watch out.

He almost always finishes consistently around the rim. Always from Utah to OKC and now in NYK, when he was given the ball and minutes. The problem is his defense, was always his defense.

He's also afraid to take mini jumpers, thus clogging the lane for KP, he is a black hole once he starts to make his move in the post, and he can only finish with his right hand also - he missed 3 layups last night because he wanted to use his right instead of the easier one with the left.

His defense is horrible, but he's got issues on offense too.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#267 » by Knicksfan20 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 4:46 pm

Knickstape1214 wrote:
falcon107 wrote:
boomann21 wrote:That was a good trade. Enes Kanter is exactly the type of player and personality KP needs next to him in the trenches. If he starts to finish consistently around the rim the world better watch out.

He almost always finishes consistently around the rim. Always from Utah to OKC and now in NYK, when he was given the ball and minutes. The problem is his defense, was always his defense.

He's also afraid to take mini jumpers, thus clogging the lane for KP, he is a black hole once he starts to make his move in the post, and he can only finish with his right hand also - he missed 3 layups last night because he wanted to use his right instead of the easier one with the left.

His defense is horrible, but he's got issues on offense too.


First u said he has no range and clogs the paint, now he doesn’t take enough jumpers and he’s clogging the paint. No mention of the amount of extra possessions he gets us by being in the paint. Can really tell how ineffective Kanter made KP last night when he was dropping 40.


Arguably Kanters worst defensive game of the season, but Indiana is talented. Kanter also made good defensive plays in this game despite also having a few mishaps. He pulled down 18 boards and played hard and fought for rebounds against a god rebounding team. O’Quinn also had troubles with their bigs, why isn’t he being called out?


I think there is a reason Kanter isn’t taking many jumpers. Kanter also has been passing better also. I just don’t see the reason for the Kanter hate other then his contract and people butt hurt over Willy not getting minutes.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#268 » by Knickstape1214 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 4:52 pm

Knicksfan20 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:
falcon107 wrote:He almost always finishes consistently around the rim. Always from Utah to OKC and now in NYK, when he was given the ball and minutes. The problem is his defense, was always his defense.

He's also afraid to take mini jumpers, thus clogging the lane for KP, he is a black hole once he starts to make his move in the post, and he can only finish with his right hand also - he missed 3 layups last night because he wanted to use his right instead of the easier one with the left.

His defense is horrible, but he's got issues on offense too.


First u said he has no range and clogs the paint, now he doesn’t take enough jumpers and he’s clogging the paint. No mention of the amount of extra possessions he gets us by being in the paint. Can really tell how ineffective Kanter made KP last night when he was dropping 40.


Arguably Kanters worst defensive game of the season, but Indiana is talented. Kanter also made good defensive plays in this game despite also having a few mishaps. He pulled down 18 boards and played hard and fought for rebounds against a god rebounding team. O’Quinn also had troubles with their bigs, why isn’t he being called out?


I think there is a reason Kanter isn’t taking many jumpers. Kanter also has been passing better also. I just don’t see the reason for the Kanter hate other then his contract and people butt hurt over Willy not getting minutes.


KP was scoring because he was killing it, not because of anything Enes was doing (besides the one dive down pass to KP on the cut). He DOES clog the paint - watch how defenses sag off of him. His jumper he took yesterday was GOOD and I said he needs to take more of them. If he were able to space the court a little more, we'd likely have more room to drive and there wouldn't be a need for ORB. Him standing there in the block, in the paint, whatever allows the help defense to recover so much quicker. I can't help you if you can't see that.

Indiana is talented, yeah, but it doesn't excuse his defensive mishaps that have been happening every game of the year. What good defensive plays did he make? Fought for rebounds at the expense of him not contesting jumpers. KOQ played better overall on both sides than Kanter did. He wasn't getting murked on defense. He wasn't giving up wide open FT line jumpers. He was contesting shots. He was always looking for the open pass. He wasn't setting up shop in the paint and refusing to move.

If you can't see any of this, I'm not sure what to say. There's no point in this continuing as a you say, I say thing so I'm bowing out here. I know what I see and I trust what I see. :giveup:
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#269 » by Knicksfan20 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 4:59 pm

Problem is you only see things one way. I said in my post this was Kanters worst defensive game of the season, but you ignored that part...just like u ignored the few good defensive rotations and plays that Kanter made last night. Just like you ignored when Oquinn made similar mistakes to Kanter did. Just like you ignore the rebounding stat and ignore that Kanters work on the glass frees KP up a ton. Kanter being a double team inside frees up things for KP on the perimeter. Kanter getting extra possessions also helps KP and the team. Harden just dropped 56...I guess if they didn’t have Capela , Harden would of scored 66.


Keep acting like u know it all. Because more people see what I see, then what you are seeing.

I see a guy who is limited defensively but is playing hard and improving. You see a trash player no matter what or how much good he does.

Agree to disagree.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#270 » by Knickstape1214 » Mon Nov 6, 2017 5:03 pm

K, thanks.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#271 » by Billy Goat » Mon Nov 6, 2017 5:12 pm

Knicksfan20 wrote:Problem is you only see things one way. I said in my post this was Kanters worst defensive game of the season, but you ignored that part...just like u ignored the few good defensive rotations and plays that Kanter made last night. Just like you ignored when Oquinn made similar mistakes to Kanter did. Just like you ignore the rebounding stat and ignore that Kanters work on the glass frees KP up a ton. Kanter being a double team inside frees up things for KP on the perimeter. Kanter getting extra possessions also helps KP and the team. Harden just dropped 56...I guess if they didn’t have Capela , Harden would of scored 66.


Keep acting like u know it all. Because more people see what I see, then what you are seeing.

I see a guy who is limited defensively but is playing hard and improving. You see a trash player no matter what or how much good he does.

Agree to disagree.


"Yeah Kanter can rebound, but he cant hit midrange left-handed skyhooks we wouldnt want him shooting anyways"
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#272 » by Thugger HBC » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:25 pm

I don't see how Kanter clogs the paint. KP especially seems to be dunking and operating more in the paint than his first two years combined. Perhaps Kanter clogs the paint because he drags double teams and help to contain him when he's looking to score down there. Dude is an absolute load on offense down there, and usually is the middle of rebound action with two or more opponents fighting for that same rebound.

Even if he is, it isn't affecting KP at all. KP seems to always be on the TV camera view side of the court opposite of Kanter or Kanter is near the top of the key to initiate the play.

He has made some strides on defense and that's not bad at all since defense is NOT his calling card, and never will be.

This version of Kanter I'd actually be happy with going forward. rather see him happily do the dirty work than have my star player having to do it all.

Perhaps Kanter is KP's Oakley. And no, there games are nothing alike. I'm only talking about the role they play.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#273 » by NoLayupRule » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:36 pm

YouthMovement wrote:
leventuysal wrote:Enes +20 tonight vs. the Pacers.
Please explain.


single game +/- is a pretty random stat

no less useless than the +/- 5 game used as an argument to bench him at the head of this thread
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#274 » by GONYK » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:37 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:I don't see how Kanter clogs the paint. KP especially seems to be dunking and operating more in the paint than his first two years combined. Perhaps Kanter clogs the paint because he drags double teams and help to contain him when he's looking to score down there. Dude is an absolute load on offense down there, and usually is the middle of rebound action with two or more opponents fighting for that same rebound.

Even if he is, it isn't affecting KP at all. KP seems to always be on the TV camera view side of the court opposite of Kanter or Kanter is near the top of the key to initiate the play.

He has made some strides on defense and that's not bad at all since defense is NOT his calling card, and never will be.

This version of Kanter I'd actually be happy with going forward. rather see him happily do the dirty work than have my star player having to do it all.

Perhaps Kanter is KP's Oakley. And no, there games are nothing alike. I'm only talking about the role they play.


This is an interesting thought to me, and one that I've considered over this win streak.

Kanter is not a good defender, let's put that on the table right now. But the dude is a tank, who brings a ton of physicality paired with a very high work rate.

He's doing all the bruising to opponent's front lines, and he demands their attention as soon as a shot goes up on either end.

I think a case can be made that Kanter is taking and dishing out a lot of abuse down low, so KP doesn't have to. That is keeping KP fresh, while tiring out the defense.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#275 » by NoLayupRule » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:40 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:I don't see how Kanter clogs the paint. KP especially seems to be dunking and operating more in the paint than his first two years combined. Perhaps Kanter clogs the paint because he drags double teams and help to contain him when he's looking to score down there. Dude is an absolute load on offense down there, and usually is the middle of rebound action with two or more opponents fighting for that same rebound.

Even if he is, it isn't affecting KP at all. KP seems to always be on the TV camera view side of the court opposite of Kanter or Kanter is near the top of the key to initiate the play.

He has made some strides on defense and that's not bad at all since defense is NOT his calling card, and never will be.

This version of Kanter I'd actually be happy with going forward. rather see him happily do the dirty work than have my star player having to do it all.

Perhaps Kanter is KP's Oakley. And no, there games are nothing alike. I'm only talking about the role they play.



people around here were super quick to use seasonal examples to show how Melo was better at PF than SF

KP had an incredible rookie season and has had an incredible 3rd year
Rookie year he played along side Rolo who allegedly clogged the paint and yet KP was dunking on putbacks and blocking shots
this year he has Kanter and KOQ
Last year at best he had Willy. He saw a lot more C time last year since Noah was such hot garbage

its not 1to1 but the relationship between KP having a big man who needs a big man to guard him inside vs not seems to be a trend worth watching
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#276 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:45 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:I don't see how Kanter clogs the paint. KP especially seems to be dunking and operating more in the paint than his first two years combined. Perhaps Kanter clogs the paint because he drags double teams and help to contain him when he's looking to score down there. Dude is an absolute load on offense down there, and usually is the middle of rebound action with two or more opponents fighting for that same rebound.

Even if he is, it isn't affecting KP at all. KP seems to always be on the TV camera view side of the court opposite of Kanter or Kanter is near the top of the key to initiate the play.

He has made some strides on defense and that's not bad at all since defense is NOT his calling card, and never will be.

This version of Kanter I'd actually be happy with going forward. rather see him happily do the dirty work than have my star player having to do it all.

Perhaps Kanter is KP's Oakley. And no, there games are nothing alike. I'm only talking about the role they play.


It is evident to me KP and Kanter do not get in each other's way. Simple point, but an important one.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#277 » by NoLayupRule » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:45 pm

GONYK wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:I don't see how Kanter clogs the paint. KP especially seems to be dunking and operating more in the paint than his first two years combined. Perhaps Kanter clogs the paint because he drags double teams and help to contain him when he's looking to score down there. Dude is an absolute load on offense down there, and usually is the middle of rebound action with two or more opponents fighting for that same rebound.

Even if he is, it isn't affecting KP at all. KP seems to always be on the TV camera view side of the court opposite of Kanter or Kanter is near the top of the key to initiate the play.

He has made some strides on defense and that's not bad at all since defense is NOT his calling card, and never will be.

This version of Kanter I'd actually be happy with going forward. rather see him happily do the dirty work than have my star player having to do it all.

Perhaps Kanter is KP's Oakley. And no, there games are nothing alike. I'm only talking about the role they play.


This is an interesting thought to me, and one that I've considered over this win streak.

Kanter is not a good defender, let's put that on the table right now. But the dude is a tank, who brings a ton of physicality paired with a very high work rate.

He's doing all the bruising to opponent's front lines, and he demands their attention as soon as a shot goes up on either end.

I think a case can be made that Kanter is taking and dishing out a lot of abuse down low, so KP doesn't have to. That is keeping KP fresh, while tiring out the defense.

for sure

but Ive mentioned a few times the fact that we are missing some of his impact if we only consider the 2nd big as help on defense

Kanter forces opposing teams to stay big at the 4 and 5
they can't defend Kanter small and KP is starting to destroy defenders who aren't center sizing with quick feet

For example Clev wasn't able to go small and play much of James at the 4 because they couldn't defend Kanter with Love and KP was too much of a size mismatch vs James

It'll be interesting to see us against teams that play really effective small ball vs us
Houston looked comfortable for sure but they have Anderson who plays no defense and spreads the floor for them well. thats a tough matchup for KP


anyway having a scoring threat the 5 makes teams defend the 5

Noah will show a very different option
opponents can hide a defender on Noah and pack in on KP
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#278 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:47 pm

QUESTION: Did his OKC teammates push Kanter to play proper defense or was it just OKC coaching staff benching him for not playing it well?

Our guys are getting in his face when he messes up. That could be a huge difference in how he improves his D. That and him learning to be vocal on defense.
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#279 » by Handledatruth » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:58 pm

One thing Jeff has done is consistently keep a Center on the floor at all times throughout the game. He rotates Kanter, KOQ and sometimes Willy and KP never plays Center. This is important because it allows KP to play very good help defense without leaving the paint open for offensive rebounders and slashers. This is obviously working and counters everyone else's copycat move to have Centers that hang around on the 3 point line. Basically our most effective rebounder will not be benched and this thread is becoming laughable every game that passes. :)
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Re: Preliminary Look At +/-: Why Kanter Needs To Be Benched 

Post#280 » by Thugger HBC » Mon Nov 6, 2017 11:00 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:QUESTION: Did his OKC teammates push Kanter to play proper defense or was it just OKC coaching staff benching him for not playing it well?

Our guys are getting in his face when he messes up. That could be a huge difference in how he improves his D. That and him learning to be vocal on defense.

Really no way to truly know, what is known is he is certainly giving an effort on that side of the ball now.

But there is a difference in playing in the early parts of a rebuilding season and playing in the 2nd round or more in the playoffs.

Kanter fits what we're doing, all that matters to me.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

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