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No Tank You?

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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#221 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Nov 6, 2017 7:26 pm

newyorker4ever wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:

If Kanter does get traded then i hope you know that will change a lot with this team and the way they're playing right now. He's a big reason why we're playing this well and KP seems to really like having him playing next to him so it could hurt more then just the on court stuff. The Knicks are actually in a pretty tricky spot when it comes to player personel starting with the Kanter contract and what we should do if he doesn't opt into that last year and that's if we don't trade him of course. Perry definitely has his work cut out for him with making the right decisions with players like Kanter and KOQ and making the right pick/picks in next years draft.


we got one of them good problems. a wealth of talent at a position where there is a league-wide dearth. unfortunately, we have to let one (maybe two) of them go. i'm thinking it's kanter. but that will hurt because he's on-pace to go on and be all-star caliber. KO would be a great backup for billy and could start in the meantime. also probably would cost less than kanter, which is key.

ugh. sucks.



Yeah it definitely sucks cause if i had to choose which center to keep long term and money didn't have anything to do with it then the choice is Kanter it's not even close for me. This comes back to the Noah contract is what's gonna hurt us most. If no Noah contract then we can sign Kanter to a new 4 year contract and still have money left to add another significant player at SF/Wing.


yeah. too bad noah broke down on us. we couldn't even flip him to a contender or something.

and i don't think there are any minutes left to "showcase" him enough. we're just eating that.

fortunately, we probably weren't spending much in the next couple years. and after next season he's at least an expiring.

time heals all wounds.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#222 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Nov 6, 2017 7:28 pm

8516knicks wrote:How many wins are our upside this year? If it's less than 40 do we hope people catch colds? (not wishing any injuries). If it approaches 48 do we go all in for adding vets? So torn, started the year in full tank mode but these guys are playing so good now with promise of so much more. Even THJ and Enes are really coming around. No one except RS might deserve to be jettisoned. And from what I've read (haven't seen him) have faint hopes of Dotson becoming our version of Michael Cooper. Love the effective D increase. But still want a lottery pick!


i don't think we add anything regardless. let the kids do what they do. they've got enough vets around them to be raised right. short of a superstar, i'm not looking to trade for another vet.

unless it's someone who could take the group as constructed to the finals, i'd say we should just enjoy the ride of current player development.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#223 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Nov 6, 2017 7:39 pm

KnickLeDime wrote:I may be alone in this but I'm really conflicted. I went into the season all aboard the tank...while a part of me is really happy for the kids on this team and I love what KP is doing and finally that so many Knick fans are genuinely excited. I wanted ONE more top 7 pick. Just one to pair with KP and Frank for the next 15 years.

So I know people will hurl insults, tell mods to ban me etc. but I will continue to root for losses, one more time. And if it doesn't come to pass, so be it. This is probably our last opportunity to add a significant piece through the draft for the next decade. I know folks are going to point out those one-offs where a team hit on sleeper. Chances are low...so hate me if you must.


cool existential crisis, bro?

top 7? that's the goalpost now? i thought we were tanking for top 3... i mean top 5... now it would have been cool for top 7 because that's where your next piece is coming from? 7 sounds arbitrary as hell, but ok.

where's the line to define your concept of a "sleeper?" must be 8 or lower then.

the "opportunity" to add through the draft is a function of suckitude. so far, we don't look like we suck. what you gonna do? continue to whine about why we should be what... throwing games? how we supposed to be worse? stunt development? DNP KP? that's why people telling you to STFU and GTFO. has nothing to do with difference of opinion.

even i was fully prepared for the tank, but it doesn't look like it's going that way. fug you gonna do?
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#224 » by rammagen » Mon Nov 6, 2017 7:42 pm

K-DOT wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
KnickLeDime wrote:I may be alone in this but I'm really conflicted. I went into the season all aboard the tank...while a part of me is really happy for the kids on this team and I love what KP is doing and finally that so many Knick fans are genuinely excited. I wanted ONE more top 7 pick. Just one to pair with KP and Frank for the next 15 years.

So I know people will hurl insults, tell mods to ban me etc. but I will continue to root for losses, one more time. And if it doesn't come to pass, so be it. This is probably our last opportunity to add a significant piece through the draft for the next decade. I know folks are going to point out those one-offs where a team hit on sleeper. Chances are low...so hate me if you must.



It isn't a bad thing to want your team that's rebuilding to tank no matter what any other fan says to you. You're wanting your team to tank because you know how much one of these top picks could help this team in our rebuild, and you're right, cause another stud could be just what this team needs to take that next step. Of course you can still find a player that can help this team in the middle of the draft but we'd need some luck to get one that could help as much as a Doncic or Porter or Knox could, it can be done but the chances aren't great cause anyone who knows would know how much harder it is for these college kids to make the transition to the NBA then it is for the football kids for some reason.

But on the flip side, it's really annoying to hear, especially when people don't consider the possibility that the pick they tanked for will bust

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"

I'm fine with winning games because our primary focus right now is developing our young guys, and they're the ones winning games for us. You want to stifle their development because you might get a chance to maybe pick a player with slightly better odds of becoming a star?

What if we draft Porter, and he's more Beasley than Durant? Now our players aren't as developed as they could be, you didn't gain anything from picking higher, and KP is even more frustrated with the team.

Team tank for the most part doesn't even seem to realize that this is possible, hell it's more than possible. Even the #1 pick only has about a 50/50 chance of becoming a star player, and that chance drops off dramatically after #3

Scouting and player development are more important than raw draft position. It's why the Wolves have picked in the top ten for like ten years yet never really seem to get better. The Magic have been rebuilding since 2012, and it looks like they might have finally developed a core. The Warriors were hot garbage for like 20 years, and who knows what the f*ck the Suns are doing. Good organizations find a way to make the most out of the picks they get. The Spurs haven't drafted higher than mid 20s (with the exception of Kawhi, who was traded for) since 97. The Jazz had a run where they didn't pick in the lottery for almost 20 years between the early 80s and 2000s. The Mavs finally had a top 10 pick for the first time this millenium. I'll take good scouts and trainers and a lower pick over poor scouts/trainers and a higher pick any day of the week

Thank you for saying what I have been trying to. You play for the players you have to develop them.
KP looks like the real deal a player we have not drafted since Patrick. Play hard develop the around him, draft smart sigg free agents smarter and that will always beat draft position
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#225 » by Dr. Detfink » Mon Nov 6, 2017 7:56 pm

Ask the Detroit Pistons how easy it's been to draft in the mid-first round. They've been rebuilding since their last championship. They rarely gave up their first rounder if at all.

The higher a team can draft, the more control they have over which position they want to upgrade and more importantly the quality and quantity of talent to select from is there.

The problem with the Knicks is the fact, the front office is often behind the times when it comes to drafting. They're still enamored with "the superstar" and until KP proved to them that Euro league players have closed the gap since Dream Team I dominated in the Olympics...Pretty sure the Knicks were 50/50 on trading Frank Ntilikina and a first rounder for Bledsoe.

The Knicks personality needs to be cemented and so this 3rd piece MUST be a definitive piece. Not a "maybe" he'll develop but a major piece that will define KP's team.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#226 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Nov 6, 2017 8:05 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:Pretty sure the Knicks were 50/50 on trading Frank Ntilikina and a first rounder for Bledsoe.


pretty sure 50/50? word?
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#227 » by Boarder Patrol » Mon Nov 6, 2017 8:09 pm

I'm just as confident we can find an impact player at the 12th-18th pick than at the 5th-10th pick. The difference between 1 and 6, for instance, is just so much bigger than the difference between 7 and 12. And so on. It's a lot more of a crapshoot than people care to admit past those first few picks.

Our chances would probably be slightly better of getting an impact guy with a higher pick obviously, but I'm not going to wring my hands over it. We have all our picks going forward and competent drafting will net us some pieces no matter where we fall - just like incompetent drafting wouldn't get us anyone even if we were picking 5th. The hope for now is that KP is a legit star and we're just not capable of falling in that top-8 range anymore.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#228 » by DOT » Mon Nov 6, 2017 8:13 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:Ask the Detroit Pistons how easy it's been to draft in the mid-first round. They've been rebuilding since their last championship. They rarely gave up their first rounder if at all.

The higher a team can draft, the more control they have over which position they want to upgrade and more importantly the quality and quantity of talent to select from is there.

The problem with the Knicks is the fact, the front office is often behind the times when it comes to drafting. They're still enamored with "the superstar" and until KP proved to them that Euro league players have closed the gap since Dream Team I dominated in the Olympics...Pretty sure the Knicks were 50/50 on trading Frank Ntilikina and a first rounder for Bledsoe.

The Knicks personality needs to be cemented and so this 3rd piece MUST be a definitive piece. Not a "maybe" he'll develop but a major piece that will define KP's team.

Pistons have poor scouting

Instead of drafting Monroe/Knight/Pope, imagine if they go with PG/Klay/CJ

Those 3 along with Drummond would've been a hell of a core, and all were picked within 3 spots of where the Pistons were selecting

They had a 7th pick, 3 8th picks, and a 9th pick. That's not mid first, that's mid lottery. And high level players were available, they just missed picking them
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#229 » by shtolky » Mon Nov 6, 2017 8:40 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:Ask the Detroit Pistons how easy it's been to draft in the mid-first round. They've been rebuilding since their last championship. They rarely gave up their first rounder if at all.

The higher a team can draft, the more control they have over which position they want to upgrade and more importantly the quality and quantity of talent to select from is there.

The problem with the Knicks is the fact, the front office is often behind the times when it comes to drafting. They're still enamored with "the superstar" and until KP proved to them that Euro league players have closed the gap since Dream Team I dominated in the Olympics...Pretty sure the Knicks were 50/50 on trading Frank Ntilikina and a first rounder for Bledsoe.

The Knicks personality needs to be cemented and so this 3rd piece MUST be a definitive piece. Not a "maybe" he'll develop but a major piece that will define KP's team.



Just because one team sucks at drafting doesn't mean you can't find impact players outside the top 10. They drafted Brandon Knight over Klay and Kawhi. They drafted Monroe over Hayward and George. They drafted KCP over Giannis, Steven Adams, and McCollum. They took Stanley Johnson over Myles Turner and Booker. Also Kennard over Mitchell. As you see, they were never in the top 5 but had chances year after year to draft impact players. One actual strength of ours has been drafting. Obviously you want to be picking as high as possible to maximize chances of a superstar, but great players don't just come from the top 5, or top 10.

Also, how exactly are we behind the times with drafting when we...drafted KP and Frank? I am legit confused by this remark. Please explain.

You're saying you wish KP wasn't this dominant so we could suck and have a chance at a better pick?
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#230 » by Dr. Detfink » Mon Nov 6, 2017 10:17 pm

shtolky wrote:
Just because one team sucks at drafting doesn't mean you can't find impact players outside the top 10.


Do you REALLY want to waste my time with digging up ALL the non-competitive teams for the last 10 years? That's 2/3rds of the league, which has been VERY uncompetitive BECAUSE of the super teams but also "meh" talent available.

In 2009, Donnie Walsh passed on a much needed point guard...Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague, Jrue Holliday...and was scorned but it took 5-6 seasons before the league realized NONE of these guys are a fixture. More or less role players. Holliday was vastly overpaid...and will lose his job to Rondo when he's healthy.

If you look from the Knicks #8 pick Jordan Hill all the way to #30...only DeRozan is still with the team he was drafted by and still plays.

So let's STOP and think before the diatribe of patronization. The higher up you are in the draft, the BETTER in position you are to having the option of drafting the best talent available.

End of story.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#231 » by Juco24 » Tue Nov 7, 2017 1:33 am

A trade that I think could benefit both teams is Noah for Deng. Salaries are a wash. Dengs been inactive in LA while Noah could help Lopez. Dengs got a little bit left in the tank and can still defend... I think. Lol. Ok yeah I have no idea why LA would do it but it makes sense for us. LOL
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#232 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Nov 7, 2017 1:58 am

Juco24 wrote:A trade that I think could benefit both teams is Noah for Deng. Salaries are a wash. Dengs been inactive in LA while Noah could help Lopez. Dengs got a little bit left in the tank and can still defend... I think. Lol. Ok yeah I have no idea why LA would do it but it makes sense for us. LOL


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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#233 » by Jalen Bluntson » Tue Nov 7, 2017 6:52 pm

Food for thought

People seem to think we aren't allowed to win this year. That if we're not in the lottery we are doomed. They are wrong. I can give examples.

Did you know that Durant, RW, Harden were picked in the top 5 in 3 consecutive drafts?
Durant-2nd 2007
RW-4th 2008
Harden-3rd 2009

How's that working out for them?

GSW Doesn't even have a top 5 pick on their team that they drafted. Only 1 top 10 and only 2 first rd picks...period!
Curry-7th 2009
Klay-11th 2011
Green-35th 2012

The Cavaliers had THREE #1 picks in 4 years. They couldn't get to the finals and NONE of those players are even on their team anymore.
2011-Kyrie
2013-Bennet
2014-Wiggins
They needed LeBron to win after several trades.

There is no formula. There is no guarantee. You need talent...no matter where you draft or how you get it. It has little to do with living in the lottery. There are several nore examples. I can list teams that have lived in the lottery....who never win.

Play the hand your dealt. Fold...and you lose. Odds this and odds that. Yeah...we know...but that hasn't ever shown to be the case.

The NY Knicks currently have:
Timmy-24th 2013
KP-4th 2015
Frank-8th 2017
Traded for:
Kanter-3rd 2011
Doug-11th 2014
All under 25!!! All contributing to QUALITY wins.

Let's relax with the need a top pick talk.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#234 » by TheGreenArrow » Tue Nov 7, 2017 7:31 pm

Its only been 9 games. Can we please revisit this
After game 20 at least.

Other than kp's superstar leap and franks lock down defense everything seems to be a fluke but we shall see.

Again its only been 9 games so lets just hold off from making definitive statements about what this team is or isnt.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#235 » by knuckles862 » Tue Nov 7, 2017 7:38 pm

We need to tank you it’s are crazy we have no cap room and other than frank and kp the rest of the squad has a low ceiling. Tank is the right move
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#236 » by Bill Pidto » Tue Nov 7, 2017 8:15 pm

Are We Ther Yet wrote:Food for thought

People seem to think we aren't allowed to win this year. That if we're not in the lottery we are doomed. They are wrong. I can give examples.

Did you know that Durant, RW, Harden were picked in the top 5 in 3 consecutive drafts?
Durant-2nd 2007
RW-4th 2008
Harden-3rd 2009

How's that working out for them?

GSW Doesn't even have a top 5 pick on their team that they drafted. Only 1 top 10 and only 2 first rd picks...period!
Curry-7th 2009
Klay-11th 2011
Green-35th 2012

The Cavaliers had THREE #1 picks in 4 years. They couldn't get to the finals and NONE of those players are even on their team anymore.
2011-Kyrie
2013-Bennet
2014-Wiggins
They needed LeBron to win after several trades.

There is no formula. There is no guarantee. You need talent...no matter where you draft or how you get it. It has little to do with living in the lottery. There are several nore examples. I can list teams that have lived in the lottery....who never win.

Play the hand your dealt. Fold...and you lose. Odds this and odds that. Yeah...we know...but that hasn't ever shown to be the case.

The NY Knicks currently have:
Timmy-24th 2013
KP-4th 2015
Frank-8th 2017
Traded for:
Kanter-3rd 2011
Doug-11th 2014
All under 25!!! All contributing to QUALITY wins.

Let's relax with the need a top pick talk.


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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#237 » by Jalen Bluntson » Tue Nov 7, 2017 9:57 pm

Plenty if not ALL of us would have rather done a bunch of other things. Some suggested just taking Ryno for Melo. :lol:

The purpose of building through the draft is to build a young team that can win and THEN add FAs to put you over the top.

We HAVE that. In ONE summer we have lottery players from 4 of the last 7 drafts. Let that sink in. All 25 and under. PLUS we have a couple 2nd rdrs showing potential on the bench. THAT'S A GREAT START TO A REBUILD. NO TEAM could expect to be in the lottery after that...unless they SUCK at drafting.

The salaries of Timmy and Kanter are not desired. The talent is. The fit is. The age is. If we can eventually put 5 starters on the floor together, 25 and under, and win games this season....you'd rather lose? Frank is going to be starting soon.

I think you guys are stuck on a narrow path. No team has built a winner by tanking. NONE. We are building one as we speak. The right way.

If Kanter and Doug sucked...Perry would be getting trashed for the Melo trade. If we took Ryno? :lol: He made a trade that boosted our rebuild by a few years and that's great. We have 2 studs WE drafted in the lottery. We have a solid coach. Solid system. Solid defense. 8 players 25 and under that we like. Good veterans helping the kids along. What the fuq am I missing? We should blow this all up for a shot at ONE PLAYER WITH NO GUARANTEE? Doesn't make one bit of sense.

Dudes wanted Okafor/Russel/Johnson/Winslow etc etc over KP. The media and GMs did too! Where would we be now with Jahlil as our pick?

Yeah let's put all of our eggs in next years lottery. I'm sure you can ALL tell me who the surefire guaranteed player is that will make everything better. Insanity!
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#238 » by NYKAL » Tue Nov 7, 2017 11:34 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:Its only been 9 games. Can we please revisit this
After game 20 at least.

Other than kp's superstar leap and franks lock down defense everything seems to be a fluke but we shall see.

Again its only been 9 games so lets just hold off from making definitive statements about what this team is or isnt.



NY is too inept to trust with the tank. Only reason is worked with Kristaps is because we didn't properly tank and got the 4th pick. Phil wanted Okafor and his (lol) NBA ready game.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#239 » by NYKMentality85 » Wed Nov 8, 2017 12:15 am

One player who doesn't think about "tanking" is our leader; Porzingis.

And as a fan, i much rather follow our leader in K.P and root for wins.

I want N.Y in the playoffs during K.P's 3rd year.
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Re: No Tank You? 

Post#240 » by Jalen Bluntson » Wed Nov 8, 2017 5:01 am

Dudes wanted Russell and Okafor and Winslow and Johnson. No one wanted KP. LET'S TANK FOR MUDIAYE!
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