Did Phil fall asleep On Donovan Mitchell workout?

[Jeff Van Gully]

Preaching patience towards a 19 year old is not being a homer

Having unrealistic expectations is where the homer part comes in.

could you at least concede that capping and projecting player potential at this point is at minimum amazingly premature?

[Savageknick2190]

if we're judging superstar potential based on NBA games played to date, DSJ doesn't have it either. nor mitchell really.

Smith Jr. and Mitchell have shown abilities that Frank isn't capable of displaying. Their efficiency will improve over time. Mitchell is the first rookie since 2009 to score 40 points in a game. I think your take is wrong. Will they become superstars I don't know but those two have definitely shown upper echelon player abilities. Its likely Frank won't reach nor surpass those two in terms of talent. That doesn't mean he can't experience more success than those two. Frank will rely more on the players around him than the others. As long as he is surrounded by good talent he will have success. The others will more directly contribute to the success or failure of their team. Frank will most likely never have that burden put on him. What he will do in the future is guard the opposing teams best guard. If he can do that than that is enough.

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

I agree with you. Frank should have been drafted later. I agree that Frank will have to show more to justify his draft position. I'm saying he doesn't have the ability to justify that draft place unless he becomes something on the defensive end we have never seen before. He will most likely never justify it on offense. We have no choice but to accept him for what he is. We can't go back.

[Savageknick2190]

Preaching patience towards a 19 year old is not being a homer

Having unrealistic expectations is where the homer part comes in.

could you at least concede that capping and projecting player potential at this point is at minimum amazingly premature?

Projecting is what we do everyday in all walks of life daily. That is how you prepare for the next day month or year. How much food will I need, How successful will this student be at this school, How many weapons are needed to fight our next war. We project on everything as we should. You never wait till the day comes because you will have limited options fixing the problem. Frank should be judged daily as every player should. Projections change going up and down over time. Can I say how good Frank will be for sure? No I can't but I've already provided his percentage projections in my opinion. Can they change yes but its unlikely that they change much.

[IAmTheBest]

The three players you mentioned all displayed flashes of superior skill in their rookie years. They all dribbled quite well. Please don't place expectations on Frank he has little chance of achieving. It's ok to root for success for Frank but don't be a homer. It becomes obvious after awhile.

First of all you're still ignoring the fact that they came into the league a least a year older than Frank.

None of them dribbled better than Frank. None of them. But that's to be expected since Frank is a guard. And Frank has shown flashes of impact beyond his years already also. I'm not being a homer, you just have tunnel vision.

If you really think a 22 year old rookie jimmy butler who scored like 2 ppg his first year and regularly dribbled off his feet showed flashes of superior skill to a 19 year old frank, idk what to tell you.

Frank being younger will not give him athleticism. Frank being younger will not make him quicker or faster. Unless he improves at least one of these things he will not be a upper echelon guard. These skills are already deficient in Frank's game and they are naturally achieved. He will not gain in these areas significantly over time. Without that his projection is again a defensive guard who will play a role on a team. I can be wrong and he could become an all star or superstar. The percentage chance I would put on that is 10 percent or less. It's probably an above 50 percent chance he will slightly improve and be the player I described. This is all a determination based on what he has shown as a basketball player so far.

so just because frank doesnt have raw speed and explosion - wiggins, wall, DSJ type athleticism - means he will likely end up as a role player

look i concede the fact that frank will probably not become a high volume, take over scorer.

That's not what it takes to become an upper echelon guard though.

First of all, he is very smooth on the court and able to operate at different speeds. He lacks raw explosion but he can go fast. His lateral quickness is also superb, and combined with his high motor, and footwork, make him a potential threat offensively and a huge threat defensively

His length makes him a multi-position defender and gives him the ability to shoot and pass over the typical nba guard.

the point guard position is very unique in the NBA. alpha dog point guards have really havent won anything except for curry who had his team meticulously constructed to play to the strengths of Curry's transcendent shooting ability. Westbrook and CP3 havent won **** despite being on teams stacked with talent. Then you have the lillards, roses, john walls etc, who can only take their teams so far.

what you need in the NBA is a floor general who can operate an advanced offense, make the correct decisions, and dictate the pace of the game accordingly. Frank has the potential to do all of that.

Give me a point guard with a high bbiq and the ability to pressure the opposing ball handler like no other, over a poor man's westbrook anyday

[HEZI]

Smith Jr. and Mitchell have shown abilities that Frank isn't capable of displaying. Their efficiency will improve over time. Mitchell is the first rookie since 2009 to score 40 points in a game. I think your take is wrong. Will they become superstars I don't know but those two have definitely shown upper echelon player abilities. Its likely Frank won't reach nor surpass those two in terms of talent. That doesn't mean he can't experience more success than those two. Frank will rely more on the players around him than the others. As long as he is surrounded by good talent he will have success. The others will more directly contribute to the success or failure of their team. Frank will most likely never have that burden put on him. What he will do in the future is guard the opposing teams best guard. If he can do that than that is enough.

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

i liked mitchell, but let's not rewrite history. no one on earth had mitchell at #8 on the draft board. that would have been considered a reach, putting it nicely. things always move around in a redraft. but let's not juxtapose that over the sentiment at the time of the draft.

the fun of this is that players over and underproduce against their draft positions.

and let's assume being prisoners of the moment, that this moment were extended to the end of the season. donovan mitchell averages 30 points a game and wins ROY. so fox, ball, fultz are bad picks too, right?

I'm on earth and I had him as my choice for the 8th pick. Do we know what the draft board looked like for the 30 GMs in the league? No we don't. Just because some draft sites and most fans on this board didn't have him listed that high doesn't mean anything. Malik Monk was also supposed to go way higher according to the draft sites, yet he dropped down to 11. You say that would have been a reach, well that's just your opinion and doesn't represent a fact. Some teams drafted for need, some drafted for fit, some took the BPA, it all varied but if we're talking about strictly the Knicks then we had a bunch of reasons to take Mitchell at 8, a bunch!

As far as the other guys you mentioned, it's not about who wins ROY, you missed the point there. I said if Frank at the peak of his career is nothing more than just a role player then we messed up. It has nothing to do with this season and who wins ROY or who averages 30 by the end of this year. If all those guys you mentioned are role players at the peak of their careers (small chance that happens) then yeah the same thing would apply.

[Savageknick2190]

First of all you're still ignoring the fact that they came into the league a least a year older than Frank.

None of them dribbled better than Frank. None of them. But that's to be expected since Frank is a guard. And Frank has shown flashes of impact beyond his years already also. I'm not being a homer, you just have tunnel vision.

If you really think a 22 year old rookie jimmy butler who scored like 2 ppg his first year and regularly dribbled off his feet showed flashes of superior skill to a 19 year old frank, idk what to tell you.

Frank being younger will not give him athleticism. Frank being younger will not make him quicker or faster. Unless he improves at least one of these things he will not be a upper echelon guard. These skills are already deficient in Frank's game and they are naturally achieved. He will not gain in these areas significantly over time. Without that his projection is again a defensive guard who will play a role on a team. I can be wrong and he could become an all star or superstar. The percentage chance I would put on that is 10 percent or less. It's probably an above 50 percent chance he will slightly improve and be the player I described. This is all a determination based on what he has shown as a basketball player so far.

so just because frank doesnt have raw speed and explosion - wiggins, wall, DSJ type athleticism - means he will likely end up as a role player

look i concede the fact that frank will probably not become a high volume, take over scorer.

That's not what it takes to become an upper echelon guard though.

First of all, he is very smooth on the court and able to operate at different speeds. He lacks raw explosion but he can go fast. His lateral quickness is also superb, and combined with his high motor, and footwork, make him a potential threat offensively and a huge threat defensively

His length makes him a multi-position defender and gives him the ability to shoot and pass over the typical nba guard.

the point guard position is very unique in the NBA. alpha dog point guards have really havent won anything except for curry who had his team meticulously constructed to play to the strengths of Curry's transcendent shooting ability. Westbrook and CP3 havent won **** despite being on teams stacked with talent. Then you have the lillards, roses, john walls etc, who can only take their teams so far.

what you need in the NBA is a floor general who can operate an advanced offense, make the correct decisions, and dictate the pace of the game accordingly. Frank has the potential to do all of that.

Give me a point guard with a high bbiq and the ability to pressure the opposing ball handler like no other, over a poor man's westbrook anyday

If you have read my post that is what I'm saying Frank will be. He doesn't have to be anything else. This is who he is and that will have to do.

[IAmTheBest]

Frank being younger will not give him athleticism. Frank being younger will not make him quicker or faster. Unless he improves at least one of these things he will not be a upper echelon guard. These skills are already deficient in Frank's game and they are naturally achieved. He will not gain in these areas significantly over time. Without that his projection is again a defensive guard who will play a role on a team. I can be wrong and he could become an all star or superstar. The percentage chance I would put on that is 10 percent or less. It's probably an above 50 percent chance he will slightly improve and be the player I described. This is all a determination based on what he has shown as a basketball player so far.

so just because frank doesnt have raw speed and explosion - wiggins, wall, DSJ type athleticism - means he will likely end up as a role player

look i concede the fact that frank will probably not become a high volume, take over scorer.

That's not what it takes to become an upper echelon guard though.

First of all, he is very smooth on the court and able to operate at different speeds. He lacks raw explosion but he can go fast. His lateral quickness is also superb, and combined with his high motor, and footwork, make him a potential threat offensively and a huge threat defensively

His length makes him a multi-position defender and gives him the ability to shoot and pass over the typical nba guard.

the point guard position is very unique in the NBA. alpha dog point guards have really havent won anything except for curry who had his team meticulously constructed to play to the strengths of Curry's transcendent shooting ability. Westbrook and CP3 havent won **** despite being on teams stacked with talent. Then you have the lillards, roses, john walls etc, who can only take their teams so far.

what you need in the NBA is a floor general who can operate an advanced offense, make the correct decisions, and dictate the pace of the game accordingly. Frank has the potential to do all of that.

Give me a point guard with a high bbiq and the ability to pressure the opposing ball handler like no other, over a poor man's westbrook anyday

If you have read my post that is what I'm saying Frank will be. He doesn't have to be anything else. This is who he is and that will have to do.

a floor general is not a role player bruh

[HEZI]

Smith Jr. and Mitchell have shown abilities that Frank isn't capable of displaying. Their efficiency will improve over time. Mitchell is the first rookie since 2009 to score 40 points in a game. I think your take is wrong. Will they become superstars I don't know but those two have definitely shown upper echelon player abilities. Its likely Frank won't reach nor surpass those two in terms of talent. That doesn't mean he can't experience more success than those two. Frank will rely more on the players around him than the others. As long as he is surrounded by good talent he will have success. The others will more directly contribute to the success or failure of their team. Frank will most likely never have that burden put on him. What he will do in the future is guard the opposing teams best guard. If he can do that than that is enough.

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

I agree with you. Frank should have been drafted later. I agree that Frank will have to show more to justify his draft position. I'm saying he doesn't have the ability to justify that draft place unless he becomes something on the defensive end we have never seen before. He will most likely never justify it on offense. We have no choice but to accept him for what he is. We can't go back.

I believe he's got a bigger ceiling than you are giving him credit for. I think he's got the work ethic and the tools needed to become a really solid offensive player. Maybe not a stud but somewhere along the lines of a Nicolas Batum if not better

[Savageknick2190]

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

i liked mitchell, but let's not rewrite history. no one on earth had mitchell at #8 on the draft board. that would have been considered a reach, putting it nicely. things always move around in a redraft. but let's not juxtapose that over the sentiment at the time of the draft.

the fun of this is that players over and underproduce against their draft positions.

and let's assume being prisoners of the moment, that this moment were extended to the end of the season. donovan mitchell averages 30 points a game and wins ROY. so fox, ball, fultz are bad picks too, right?

I'm on earth and I had him as my choice for the 8th pick. Do we know what the draft board looked like for the 30 GMs in the league? No we don't. Just because some draft sites and most fans on this board didn't have him listed that high doesn't mean anything. Malik Monk was also supposed to go way higher according to the draft sites, yet he dropped down to 11. You say that would have been a reach, well that's just your opinion and doesn't represent a fact. Some teams drafted for need, some drafted for fit, some took the BPA, it all varied but if we're talking about strictly the Knicks then we had a bunch of reasons to take Mitchell at 8, a bunch!

As far as the other guys you mentioned, it's not about who wins ROY, you missed the point there. I said if Frank at the peak of his career is nothing more than just a role player then we messed up. It has nothing to do with this season and who wins ROY or who averages 30 by the end of this year. If all those guys you mentioned are role players at the peak of their careers (small chance that happens) then yeah the same thing would apply.

By the way Isaiah Thomas won two championships. Lets make sure we have our facts correct before posting. Also, no one said these players have to be the best players on the team they can be secondary players such as Kyrie and still contribute greatly to a title.

[Clyde_Style]

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

i liked mitchell, but let's not rewrite history. no one on earth had mitchell at #8 on the draft board. that would have been considered a reach, putting it nicely. things always move around in a redraft. but let's not juxtapose that over the sentiment at the time of the draft.

the fun of this is that players over and underproduce against their draft positions.

and let's assume being prisoners of the moment, that this moment were extended to the end of the season. donovan mitchell averages 30 points a game and wins ROY. so fox, ball, fultz are bad picks too, right?

I'm on earth and I had him as my choice for the 8th pick. Do we know what the draft board looked like for the 30 GMs in the league? No we don't. Just because some draft sites and most fans on this board didn't have him listed that high doesn't mean anything. Malik Monk was also supposed to go way higher according to the draft sites, yet he dropped down to 11. You say that would have been a reach, well that's just your opinion and doesn't represent a fact. Some teams drafted for need, some drafted for fit, some took the BPA, it all varied but if we're talking about strictly the Knicks then we had a bunch of reasons to take Mitchell at 8, a bunch!

As far as the other guys you mentioned, it's not about who wins ROY, you missed the point there. I said if Frank at the peak of his career is nothing more than just a role player then we messed up. It has nothing to do with this season and who wins ROY or who averages 30 by the end of this year. If all those guys you mentioned are role players at the peak of their careers (small chance that happens) then yeah the same thing would apply.

Mark Jackson won ROY and I still wanted to keep Rod Stickland over Jackson.

[Savageknick2190]

so just because frank doesnt have raw speed and explosion - wiggins, wall, DSJ type athleticism - means he will likely end up as a role player

look i concede the fact that frank will probably not become a high volume, take over scorer.

That's not what it takes to become an upper echelon guard though.

First of all, he is very smooth on the court and able to operate at different speeds. He lacks raw explosion but he can go fast. His lateral quickness is also superb, and combined with his high motor, and footwork, make him a potential threat offensively and a huge threat defensively

His length makes him a multi-position defender and gives him the ability to shoot and pass over the typical nba guard.

the point guard position is very unique in the NBA. alpha dog point guards have really havent won anything except for curry who had his team meticulously constructed to play to the strengths of Curry's transcendent shooting ability. Westbrook and CP3 havent won **** despite being on teams stacked with talent. Then you have the lillards, roses, john walls etc, who can only take their teams so far.

what you need in the NBA is a floor general who can operate an advanced offense, make the correct decisions, and dictate the pace of the game accordingly. Frank has the potential to do all of that.

Give me a point guard with a high bbiq and the ability to pressure the opposing ball handler like no other, over a poor man's westbrook anyday

If you have read my post that is what I'm saying Frank will be. He doesn't have to be anything else. This is who he is and that will have to do.

a floor general is not a role player bruh

You said Floor General. Floor General is the exact definition of a role. Please stop you are embarrassing yourself.

[Knicksfan20]

This is the part that I said was nonsense. It was his lack of ability to score which had him passing first, not his trainers and coaches preaching to him to pass first. The star of his team was AJ Slaughter, a guy who wouldn't even cut it as an NBA 3rd stringer. Frank had a very limited role on offense because of his shaky ball handling, inability to break down a defense, inability to shoot off the dribble consistently and so on. He wasn't even used for pass first reasons, he was used for defensive reasons to pressure the ball handler and make an impact on the defensive end because that was his strongest attribute. Not passing, not play making. He would essentially play the role of a spot up shooter because that was the only time he could score was off drive and kicks from other guards creating shots for him.

This dude won Fiba U18 Championship MVP and had shown completely different ability against inferior talent which were his peers .

How is it that he can do all these iso moves against his peers in the U18 tournament

Watch on YouTube

but then the argument is being made that he can't do it on the NBA level, or even Strasburg for that matter, because of the traditional PG development in Europe?

It's nonsense. Like I said before, the only difference is talent! Simple and plain! The NBA is far more superior in talent and level of competition, it has nothing to do with coaching or the way PGs are developed in Europe.

Where are these iso moves you speak of? He has no handle.

In that video you can see him successfully pulling off crossovers, behind the back step backs, in and out, etc. He's got the tools to break down his European peers, now he just has to keep working and polishing those tools to be able to do it on the pro level in the NBA.

The moves he “pulled off” were very basic and slow. No double moves either. He heavily favors his right hand and most of that highlight are jump shots.

[Savageknick2190]

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

I agree with you. Frank should have been drafted later. I agree that Frank will have to show more to justify his draft position. I'm saying he doesn't have the ability to justify that draft place unless he becomes something on the defensive end we have never seen before. He will most likely never justify it on offense. We have no choice but to accept him for what he is. We can't go back.

I believe he's got a bigger ceiling than you are giving him credit for. I think he's got the work ethic and the tools needed to become a really solid offensive player. Maybe not a stud but somewhere along the lines of a Nicolas Batum if not better

He hasn't shown that ability in the nba at all. So how are you expecting a solid offensive player to the level of a Batum unless you are seeing things that have not actually occurred yet on a nba basketball court?

[HEZI]

Where are these iso moves you speak of? He has no handle.

In that video you can see him successfully pulling off crossovers, behind the back step backs, in and out, etc. He's got the tools to break down his European peers, now he just has to keep working and polishing those tools to be able to do it on the pro level in the NBA.

The moves he “pulled off” were very basic and slow. No double moves either. He heavily favors his right hand and most of that highlight are jump shots.

It was enough to break down his defender, was it not? Like I said, he has the tools to pull off those moves on the u18 level of competition in Europe, what you are looking for is more advanced and I've acknowledged he doesn't have that yet.

[3toheadmelo]

all these point guards taken in the lottery are and supposed to be better than frank right now. time will tell if frank is better than them in the future though....gotta be patient (and yes it's frustrating because smith was my guy and he's looked great but what else can we do )

[Knicksfan20]

It’s not good enough. You are watching highlights. He didn’t have a single impressive iso move to me in that highlight.

I think he will improve for sure, I just disagree that he showed average or better handles in that highlight.

[HEZI]

I agree with you. Frank should have been drafted later. I agree that Frank will have to show more to justify his draft position. I'm saying he doesn't have the ability to justify that draft place unless he becomes something on the defensive end we have never seen before. He will most likely never justify it on offense. We have no choice but to accept him for what he is. We can't go back.

I believe he's got a bigger ceiling than you are giving him credit for. I think he's got the work ethic and the tools needed to become a really solid offensive player. Maybe not a stud but somewhere along the lines of a Nicolas Batum if not better

He hasn't shown that ability in the nba at all. So how are you expecting a solid offensive player to the level of a Batum unless you are seeing things that have not actually occurred yet on a nba basketball court?

For one, he has spot up shooting ability. So there's that. For two, he's shown ability to set up a 1-2 dribble pull up jumper at the top of the key. For three, he's shown he knows how to take an off balance step back fadeaway along the baseline (sure he's air balled some but he's also knocked down a couple). You're over here acting like he's Jarred Jeffries now

[Savageknick2190]

I believe he's got a bigger ceiling than you are giving him credit for. I think he's got the work ethic and the tools needed to become a really solid offensive player. Maybe not a stud but somewhere along the lines of a Nicolas Batum if not better

He hasn't shown that ability in the nba at all. So how are you expecting a solid offensive player to the level of a Batum unless you are seeing things that have not actually occurred yet on a nba basketball court?

For one, he has spot up shooting ability. So there's that. For two, he's shown ability to set up a 1-2 dribble pull up jumper at the top of the key. For three, he's shown he knows how to take an off balance step back fadeaway along the baseline (sure he's air balled some but he's also knocked down a couple). You're over here acting like he's Jarred Jeffries now

I've been quoted on this board as saying he will reach at his peak 12 and 6. So no I don't think he will be a Jarred Jeffries. Who was the worst offensive player I believe I have ever seen. I just don't see a All Star level player. Solid yes

[IAmTheBest]

If you have read my post that is what I'm saying Frank will be. He doesn't have to be anything else. This is who he is and that will have to do.

a floor general is not a role player bruh

You said Floor General. Floor General is the exact definition of a role. Please stop you are embarrassing yourself.

LOL. You are clueless. Floor generals are not role players

https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/role-player.aspx

Keep spouting your garbage tho

[Savageknick2190]

a floor general is not a role player bruh

You said Floor General. Floor General is the exact definition of a role. Please stop you are embarrassing yourself.

LOL. You are clueless. Floor generals are not role players

https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/role-player.aspx

Keep spouting your garbage tho

You need to reread your own definition