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OT: Miguel Cotto

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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#21 » by Knickfan1982 » Mon Dec 4, 2017 4:48 pm

xNewYorkMadex wrote:I also had Ali winning 7-5. Made much more sense to find out Cotto injured his bicep in the 7th round. Cotto suddenly began retreating and wasnt pouncing after Ali like he usually was.

Respect to Cotto though on a great career. Never ducked, fought everyone in their primes basically. True fighter. Max Kellerman said it perfectly.


Actually Cotto did duck GGG and Erislandy Lara pretty hard. Said GGG never fought an A-level fighters weeks before he took on someone GGG knocked out in 3 or 4 rounds. Never mentioned Lara's name despite him having fought plenty of A-level fighters including a guy who beat Cotto.

Cotto became a diva after he lost to Trout.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#22 » by NYKAL » Mon Dec 4, 2017 4:51 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:He was very good, but Margarito stole the rest of his career AFAIK. Should have been sent to prison for what he did to Cotto


agreed. Cotto was definitely damaged in that fight and was never the same afterwards. He showed flashes but, that was it.

Was impressed with his 1st fight with Freddy but, that was really his last hooray
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#23 » by Knickfan1982 » Mon Dec 4, 2017 4:52 pm

el13adnino wrote:
Papi_swav wrote:
el13adnino wrote:so he fought cotto and was taking a beating and margarito came back and ko'd him
the he fought mosely, got caught with plaster after the fight and margarito got destroyed in that fight anyway.
then all the puerto ricans decide, hey if he had plaster against mosely (remember! margarito LOST!!!) then he mustve had it against cotto, that why cotto lost, it all makes sense now.

Yup thats exactly what happened, its common sense. Margarita was knocking everybody out up until that Mosley fight where they caught him cheating. God knows how long he's been doing that, probably his whole career. Look at Cotto's face, Margarita is not doing that with his bare hands and couldn't do squat the 2nd time he fought Cotto, he got whooped. And it wasnt just Ricans saying that, everybody was saying that even boxing experts.

so why didnt he beat mosley?
now he's been doing it his whole career ... ?
the plaster helped margarito in the beating he was taking from cotto the first 6 rounds right?



Margarito got caught cheating and he didn't look anywhere near as effective in his subsequent performances. Its all circumstantial evidence to be sure but there is good reason to believe he was cheating against Cotto.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#24 » by NYKAL » Mon Dec 4, 2017 4:53 pm

Knicksfan20 wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:He was very good, but Margarito stole the rest of his career AFAIK. Should have been sent to prison for what he did to Cotto

What happened


had plaster or something in his gloves. Got busted the next fight.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#25 » by xNewYorkMadex » Mon Dec 4, 2017 4:53 pm

Knickfan1982 wrote:
xNewYorkMadex wrote:I also had Ali winning 7-5. Made much more sense to find out Cotto injured his bicep in the 7th round. Cotto suddenly began retreating and wasnt pouncing after Ali like he usually was.

Respect to Cotto though on a great career. Never ducked, fought everyone in their primes basically. True fighter. Max Kellerman said it perfectly.


Actually Cotto did duck GGG and Erislandy Lara pretty hard. Said GGG never fought an A-level fighters weeks before he took on someone GGG knocked out in 3 or 4 rounds. Never mentioned Lara's name despite him having fought plenty of A-level fighters including a guy who beat Cotto.

Cotto became a diva after he lost to Trout.

I dont blame him for ducking GGG. Cotto was never a true middleweight. He even admitted it to Kellerman saying to look at the size difference. I dont know much about Lara though so I cant speak on it.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#26 » by NYKAL » Mon Dec 4, 2017 4:59 pm

el13adnino wrote:so he fought cotto and was taking a beating and margarito came back and ko'd him
the he fought mosely, got caught with plaster after the fight and margarito got destroyed in that fight anyway.
then all the puerto ricans decide, hey if he had plaster against mosely (remember! margarito LOST!!!) then he mustve had it against cotto, that why cotto lost, it all makes sense now.


1st off the plaster hardens over time meaning it got worse as the fight went along. If you SAW that fight, there would be no doubt that his gloves were loaded. Even the beating he took from Pac wasn't as vicious and every hit Margs put on him in the late rounds were damaging. I wish he hadn't left boxing after getting exposed. Cotto would have been able to revenge that loss.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#27 » by xNewYorkMadex » Mon Dec 4, 2017 5:09 pm

NYKAL wrote:
el13adnino wrote:so he fought cotto and was taking a beating and margarito came back and ko'd him
the he fought mosely, got caught with plaster after the fight and margarito got destroyed in that fight anyway.
then all the puerto ricans decide, hey if he had plaster against mosely (remember! margarito LOST!!!) then he mustve had it against cotto, that why cotto lost, it all makes sense now.


1st off the plaster hardens over time meaning it got worse as the fight went along. If you SAW that fight, there would be no doubt that his gloves were loaded. Even the beating he took from Pac wasn't as vicious and every hit Margs put on him in the late rounds were damaging. I wish he hadn't left boxing after getting exposed. Cotto would have been able to revenge that loss.

He did, there was a rematch. Cotto won it easily.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#28 » by NYKAL » Mon Dec 4, 2017 5:14 pm

xNewYorkMadex wrote:
NYKAL wrote:
el13adnino wrote:so he fought cotto and was taking a beating and margarito came back and ko'd him
the he fought mosely, got caught with plaster after the fight and margarito got destroyed in that fight anyway.
then all the puerto ricans decide, hey if he had plaster against mosely (remember! margarito LOST!!!) then he mustve had it against cotto, that why cotto lost, it all makes sense now.


1st off the plaster hardens over time meaning it got worse as the fight went along. If you SAW that fight, there would be no doubt that his gloves were loaded. Even the beating he took from Pac wasn't as vicious and every hit Margs put on him in the late rounds were damaging. I wish he hadn't left boxing after getting exposed. Cotto would have been able to revenge that loss.

He did, there was a rematch. Cotto won it easily.



Remembered it JUST as I hit submit......need more coffee :)
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#29 » by NYKAL » Mon Dec 4, 2017 5:16 pm

el13adnino wrote:
Papi_swav wrote:
el13adnino wrote:so he fought cotto and was taking a beating and margarito came back and ko'd him
the he fought mosely, got caught with plaster after the fight and margarito got destroyed in that fight anyway.
then all the puerto ricans decide, hey if he had plaster against mosely (remember! margarito LOST!!!) then he mustve had it against cotto, that why cotto lost, it all makes sense now.

Yup thats exactly what happened, its common sense. Margarita was knocking everybody out up until that Mosley fight where they caught him cheating. God knows how long he's been doing that, probably his whole career. Look at Cotto's face, Margarita is not doing that with his bare hands and couldn't do squat the 2nd time he fought Cotto, he got whooped. And it wasnt just Ricans saying that, everybody was saying that even boxing experts.

so why didnt he beat mosley?
now he's been doing it his whole career ... ?
the plaster helped margarito in the beating he was taking from cotto the first 6 rounds right?


he got caught with the loaded gloved BEFORE the fight started. It was during the hand wrapping when you can have one of your peeps watch the opposition do the hand wraps.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#30 » by Papi_swav » Tue Dec 5, 2017 5:37 am

xNewYorkMadex wrote:
Knickfan1982 wrote:
xNewYorkMadex wrote:I also had Ali winning 7-5. Made much more sense to find out Cotto injured his bicep in the 7th round. Cotto suddenly began retreating and wasnt pouncing after Ali like he usually was.

Respect to Cotto though on a great career. Never ducked, fought everyone in their primes basically. True fighter. Max Kellerman said it perfectly.


Actually Cotto did duck GGG and Erislandy Lara pretty hard. Said GGG never fought an A-level fighters weeks before he took on someone GGG knocked out in 3 or 4 rounds. Never mentioned Lara's name despite him having fought plenty of A-level fighters including a guy who beat Cotto.

Cotto became a diva after he lost to Trout.

I dont blame him for ducking GGG. Cotto was never a true middleweight. He even admitted it to Kellerman saying to look at the size difference. I dont know much about Lara though so I cant speak on it.

Yea I don't blame Cotto for not fighting GGG after the beating he took from the cheater Margarita . Cotto is nowhere near a 160 fighter but I wouldn't say he ducked GGG, he fought a much bigger opponent in Canelo.. If he would of beat Canelo than I'm pretty sure Cotto wouldn't of turned down a fight with GGG but Canelo is just too big.

You have to give Cotto his due, he beat a few guys at 160 and he doesn't belong there. He was also looking for big money fights and a Rican/Mexican fight will generate the most which is why he fought Canelo, Lara was pretty unknown and is a boring fighter even though I think he clearly beat Canelo.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#31 » by Amsterdam » Tue Dec 5, 2017 2:33 pm

el13adnino wrote:so he fought cotto and was taking a beating and margarito came back and ko'd him
the he fought mosely, got caught with plaster after the fight and margarito got destroyed in that fight anyway.
then all the puerto ricans decide, hey if he had plaster against mosely (remember! margarito LOST!!!) then he mustve had it against cotto, that why cotto lost, it all makes sense now.


Dude you make no fkn sense, the reason he lost to Mosely is that he got caught before the fight, notafter. Get your facts down.


Saying that all the Puerto Ricans decided is being Trump-like ignorant. GTFO
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#32 » by Knickfan1982 » Tue Dec 5, 2017 5:41 pm

xNewYorkMadex wrote:
Knickfan1982 wrote:
xNewYorkMadex wrote:I also had Ali winning 7-5. Made much more sense to find out Cotto injured his bicep in the 7th round. Cotto suddenly began retreating and wasnt pouncing after Ali like he usually was.

Respect to Cotto though on a great career. Never ducked, fought everyone in their primes basically. True fighter. Max Kellerman said it perfectly.


Actually Cotto did duck GGG and Erislandy Lara pretty hard. Said GGG never fought an A-level fighters weeks before he took on someone GGG knocked out in 3 or 4 rounds. Never mentioned Lara's name despite him having fought plenty of A-level fighters including a guy who beat Cotto.

Cotto became a diva after he lost to Trout.

I dont blame him for ducking GGG. Cotto was never a true middleweight. He even admitted it to Kellerman saying to look at the size difference. I dont know much about Lara though so I cant speak on it.


Well you said he never ducked anyone. That's proven to be untrue. Just because there is a good reason to duck someone it doesn't mean it isn't a duck. You don't duck guys you are sure you can beat.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#33 » by Knickfan1982 » Tue Dec 5, 2017 5:45 pm

Papi_swav wrote:Yea I don't blame Cotto for not fighting GGG after the beating he took from the cheater Margarita . Cotto is nowhere near a 160 fighter but I wouldn't say he ducked GGG, he fought a much bigger opponent in Canelo. If he would of beat Canelo than I'm pretty sure Cotto wouldn't of turned down a fight with GGG but Canelo is just too big.


He went into GGG's division and won a belt. Cotto then had a voluntary defense he could make before fighting his mandatory (GGG) so he fought someone GGG had already destroyed. In the runup to the fight with GGG's sloppy seconds Cotto said GGG had not done anything to deserve the fight. He then paid GGG money to push back the mandatory defense Cotto owed him. GGG accepted the offer because Cotto would have just dropped the belt and fought Canelo anyway. After Cotto lost (he claims to have won) he left the division.

You have to give Cotto his due, he beat a few guys at 160 and he doesn't belong there. He was also looking for big money fights and a Rican/Mexican fight will generate the most which is why he fought Canelo, Lara was pretty unknown and is a boring fighter even though I think he clearly beat Canelo.


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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#34 » by j4remi » Tue Dec 5, 2017 6:20 pm

Knickfan1982 wrote:He went into GGG's division and won a belt. Cotto then had a voluntary defense he could make before fighting his mandatory (GGG) so he fought someone GGG had already destroyed. In the runup to the fight with GGG's sloppy seconds Cotto said GGG had not done anything to deserve the fight. He then paid GGG money to push back the mandatory defense Cotto owed him. GGG accepted the offer because Cotto would have just dropped the belt and fought Canelo anyway. After Cotto lost (he claims to have won) he left the division.

You have to give Cotto his due, he beat a few guys at 160 and he doesn't belong there. He was also looking for big money fights and a Rican/Mexican fight will generate the most which is why he fought Canelo, Lara was pretty unknown and is a boring fighter even though I think he clearly beat Canelo.


A duck is a duck no matter how much you want it to be a swan.


If we're throwing size out the window, then Mayweather ducked GGG who ducked Andre Ward...not saying it's wrong, but guys not wanting to fight someone because they are physically mismatched seems a bit different from a typical "he ducked" to me. Semantics'll do that though.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#35 » by Knickfan1982 » Wed Dec 6, 2017 11:56 pm

j4remi wrote:
If we're throwing size out the window, then Mayweather ducked GGG who ducked Andre Ward...not saying it's wrong, but guys not wanting to fight someone because they are physically mismatched seems a bit different from a typical "he ducked" to me. Semantics'll do that though.


It has nothing to do with semantics. If you don't want to get accused of ducking someone don't jump up to their division. Mayweather never jumped to 160. Cotto did. Ward never dropped down to 160 nor did GGG move up to 168. Those three guys played in their own sandboxes. You can't duck someone in a different division.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#36 » by Papi_swav » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:18 am

Knickfan1982 wrote:
j4remi wrote:
If we're throwing size out the window, then Mayweather ducked GGG who ducked Andre Ward...not saying it's wrong, but guys not wanting to fight someone because they are physically mismatched seems a bit different from a typical "he ducked" to me. Semantics'll do that though.


It has nothing to do with semantics. If you don't want to get accused of ducking someone don't jump up to their division. Mayweather never jumped to 160. Cotto did. Ward never dropped down to 160 nor did GGG move up to 168. Those three guys played in their own sandboxes. You can't duck someone in a different division.

It is a duck if theres nowhere to go but up, at the time people wanted a GGG vs. Ward fight because there was nobody else for GGG to fight at 160 at that particular time. GGG knocked everybody out besides Sergio Martinez, he was the one that really ducked GGG. See how Ward had to move up to 175 to fight Kovalev because there was nobody else for him to fight in the 168 division. Why couldn't GGG move up to 168? That was a couple years ago but right now theres a few 160s that moved up from 154 like Canelo, Charlo, Lara etc so now GGG has more options...

The reason Cotto fought one of the guys GGG defeated is because he wanted to make sure he was built enough to fight in the 160 division which was a good choice. He needed to make sure he has what it takes to last in 160, he didn't want to just jump and fight the best guy at 160 after fighting just 1 opponent which was a good choice. Where talking about GGG here not a regular fighter. It's a little different for Cotto because this an old Cotto, not a guy in his prime. Can't blame Cotto for wanting to take it a little easy especially against the best boxer on the planet. You might want to call it a duck but I think he made the right decision for taking his time. He stood toe to toe with Canelo who is just as big or maybe even bigger than GGG.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#37 » by j4remi » Thu Dec 7, 2017 1:04 pm

Knickfan1982 wrote:
j4remi wrote:
If we're throwing size out the window, then Mayweather ducked GGG who ducked Andre Ward...not saying it's wrong, but guys not wanting to fight someone because they are physically mismatched seems a bit different from a typical "he ducked" to me. Semantics'll do that though.


It has nothing to do with semantics. If you don't want to get accused of ducking someone don't jump up to their division. Mayweather never jumped to 160. Cotto did. Ward never dropped down to 160 nor did GGG move up to 168. Those three guys played in their own sandboxes. You can't duck someone in a different division.


Triple G said he was willing to go down to 154. Floyd fought at 154. Mayweather ducked.
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Re: OT: Miguel Cotto 

Post#38 » by Knickfan1982 » Thu Dec 7, 2017 5:03 pm

Papi_swav wrote:It is a duck if theres nowhere to go but up, at the time people wanted a GGG vs. Ward fight because there was nobody else for GGG to fight at 160 at that particular time. GGG knocked everybody out besides Sergio Martinez, he was the one that really ducked GGG.


Well that's a pretty warped way of looking at things. First of all, Andre Ward was never really an option because he was too busy ducking his old promoter Dan Goosen to actually fight regularly. And when he did fight it wasn't at 168. He hadn't made 168 since 2013. At that point GGG hadn't cleaned out 160. He had only just finished beating Curtis Stevens by that point. It was still very early in his run. Cotto won the middleweight belt in 2015. That means GGG knew Cotto was moving up to middleweight by early 2014. Cotto is a big name and big money opponent and he was now in GGG's weight class. Moreover, GGG was owed an eventual title shot for the belt that Martinez lost to Cotto. Also, bear in mind that this was 2014, GGG still hadn't fought David Lemieux and Andy Lee still had a title belt. It wasn't until the end of that 2015 that Peter Quillin got destroyed by the resurgent Daniel Jacobs and Andy Lee lost his belt to Billy Joe Saunders. Then within a year of winning the belt from Martinez Miguel Cotto lost the belt to Canelo who then owed GGG a title shot.

So sorry. But this whole idea that there weren't opponents for GGG to fight at 160 and so he should have jumped up to 168 to fight Ward has no basis in reality. There was a short window where it might have been possible but Ward was distracted by promotional issues. And despite the perception that there weren't good opponents for Golovkin from 2014 to now there were a whole bunch of top guys GGG to pursue.


See how Ward had to move up to 175 to fight Kovalev because there was nobody else for him to fight in the 168 division. Why couldn't GGG move up to 168? That was a couple years ago but right now theres a few 160s that moved up from 154 like Canelo, Charlo, Lara etc so now GGG has more options...


As I explained above:
1. there were plenty of good options available at 160
2. Some of those options were much bigger fights than one with Ward
3. Ward hadn't made 168 since 2013.


The reason Cotto fought one of the guys GGG defeated is because he wanted to make sure he was built enough to fight in the 160 division which was a good choice.


I understand the need to get acclimated to the division but it looks really bad when you say GGG hasn't earned the fight just before you fight GGG's sloppy seconds.
You might want to call it a duck but I think he made the right decision for taking his time. He stood toe to toe with Canelo who is just as big or maybe even bigger than GGG.

A duck is a duck regardless of whether or not the reason for the duck was understandable.

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