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Post game: No Papa Johns

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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#321 » by god shammgod » Tue Dec 5, 2017 10:55 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
god shammgod wrote:back on topic. while i do think it would be better if we tanked, or whatever you call it, they're not going to. not any time soon. so unless we get lucky with the lottery balls, we're not picking at the top of the draft. so hope to either get lucky with the draw or get lucky with the pick. because all this good gm talk when it comes to picks is mostly nonsense. sure some people scout better than others, but a lot of times a great player with a later lottery pick just happens to be one of 2 or 3 players that are supposed to be picked around there and you luck into it. not an organization in the league had donovan mitchell in their top 5, including utah, good scouting be damned.


Not top 5, but I think he was under legit consideration from 8-12.

per the bolded part, it is not so much whether there is a league-wide consensus about a player being picked later, but it is about the sole club that realizes that player should go higher when nobody else does and selects them

which begs the question:

Have All-Stars picked after the 15th pick consistently been taken by clubs recognized to have superior management or has it actually been random to the point of luck?

Some clubs are better at drafting than others it seems.

Kahwi - Spurs
Green - GS

are the two that immediately come to mind and those clubs are well managed



2nd round picks, like green, are something else entirely because at that point it's basically an open field and it's mostly about scouting.

but in the lottery you never see, for example, a guy who in a mock draft is predicted to be taken somewhere around 12 or 13 taken, let's say, 3rd by a team. that never happens. but at times those guys do become the 3rd best player in the draft. it all mostly goes by script with a slight deviation of 1 or 2 places. nobody seems to be able to scout that well. they basically are choosing between a,b & c. and when they pick correctly we call them a genius.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#322 » by god shammgod » Tue Dec 5, 2017 10:59 pm

Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:back on topic. while i do think it would be better if we tanked, or whatever you call it, they're not going to. not any time soon. so unless we get lucky with the lottery balls, we're not picking at the top of the draft. so hope to either get lucky with the draw or get lucky with the pick. because all this good gm talk when it comes to picks is mostly nonsense. sure some people scout better than others, but a lot of times a great player with a later lottery pick just happens to be one of 2 or 3 players that are supposed to be picked around there and you luck into it. not an organization in the league had donovan mitchell in their top 5, including utah, good scouting be damned.


What I'd love to see is the Knicks move some of their excess for a later first rounder. For low odds situations you need the Starks approach of taking a lot of shots. If the Knicks are picking 10, 23, 31, and say 42 (<--- apparently we have another second in that range) in this draft - not great odds for a star with any of those picks but better odds all together.


for that to happen they would have to really bottom out before the deadline. which comes sooner this year if i'm remembering right ? am i right that they changed that ? i don't expect us to be that bad that quick.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#323 » by Capn'O » Tue Dec 5, 2017 10:59 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
god shammgod wrote:back on topic. while i do think it would be better if we tanked, or whatever you call it, they're not going to. not any time soon. so unless we get lucky with the lottery balls, we're not picking at the top of the draft. so hope to either get lucky with the draw or get lucky with the pick. because all this good gm talk when it comes to picks is mostly nonsense. sure some people scout better than others, but a lot of times a great player with a later lottery pick just happens to be one of 2 or 3 players that are supposed to be picked around there and you luck into it. not an organization in the league had donovan mitchell in their top 5, including utah, good scouting be damned.


Not top 5, but I think he was under legit consideration from 8-12.

per the bolded part, it is not so much whether there is a league-wide consensus about a player being picked later, but it is about the sole club that realizes that player should go higher when nobody else does and selects them

which begs the question:

Have All-Stars picked after the 15th pick consistently been taken by clubs recognized to have superior management or has it actually been random to the point of luck?

Some clubs are better at drafting than others it seems.

Kahwi - Spurs
Green - GS

are the two that immediately come to mind and those clubs are well managed



2nd round picks, like green, are something else entirely because at that point it's basically an open field and it's mostly about scouting.

but in the lottery you never see, for example, a guy who in a mock draft is predicted to be taken somewhere around 12 or 13 taken, let's say, 3rd by a team. that never happens. but at times those guys do become the 3d best player in the draft. it all mostly goes by script with a slight deviation of 1 or 2 places. nobody seems to be able to scout that well. they basically are choosing between a,b & c. and when they pick correctly we call them a genius.


There was an article out recently where a rival GM essentially said Magic had an advantage in scouting Kuzma because he was so green to the game. He had no idea where everyone was supposed to go and was able to go into workouts with more of a clean slate. Apparently, he was really good but other teams wrote it off as a hot streak.

Then there are the incidents where getting sly all goes wrong. See Bennett, Anthony.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#324 » by Capn'O » Tue Dec 5, 2017 11:01 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:back on topic. while i do think it would be better if we tanked, or whatever you call it, they're not going to. not any time soon. so unless we get lucky with the lottery balls, we're not picking at the top of the draft. so hope to either get lucky with the draw or get lucky with the pick. because all this good gm talk when it comes to picks is mostly nonsense. sure some people scout better than others, but a lot of times a great player with a later lottery pick just happens to be one of 2 or 3 players that are supposed to be picked around there and you luck into it. not an organization in the league had donovan mitchell in their top 5, including utah, good scouting be damned.


What I'd love to see is the Knicks move some of their excess for a later first rounder. For low odds situations you need the Starks approach of taking a lot of shots. If the Knicks are picking 10, 23, 31, and say 42 (<--- apparently we have another second in that range) in this draft - not great odds for a star with any of those picks but better odds all together.


for that to happen they would have to really bottom out before the deadline. which comes sooner this year if i'm remembering right ? am i right that they changed that ? i don't expect us to be that bad that quick.


It could happen. All depends on KP. If he's back and moderately healthy we're probably not talking about this stuff much anymore.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#325 » by Clyde_Style » Tue Dec 5, 2017 11:05 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
god shammgod wrote:back on topic. while i do think it would be better if we tanked, or whatever you call it, they're not going to. not any time soon. so unless we get lucky with the lottery balls, we're not picking at the top of the draft. so hope to either get lucky with the draw or get lucky with the pick. because all this good gm talk when it comes to picks is mostly nonsense. sure some people scout better than others, but a lot of times a great player with a later lottery pick just happens to be one of 2 or 3 players that are supposed to be picked around there and you luck into it. not an organization in the league had donovan mitchell in their top 5, including utah, good scouting be damned.


Not top 5, but I think he was under legit consideration from 8-12.

per the bolded part, it is not so much whether there is a league-wide consensus about a player being picked later, but it is about the sole club that realizes that player should go higher when nobody else does and selects them

which begs the question:

Have All-Stars picked after the 15th pick consistently been taken by clubs recognized to have superior management or has it actually been random to the point of luck?

Some clubs are better at drafting than others it seems.

Kahwi - Spurs
Green - GS

are the two that immediately come to mind and those clubs are well managed



2nd round picks, like green, are something else entirely because at that point it's basically an open field and it's mostly about scouting.

but in the lottery you never see, for example, a guy who in a mock draft is predicted to be taken somewhere around 12 or 13 taken, let's say, 3rd by a team. that never happens. but at times those guys do become the 3d best player in the draft. it all mostly goes by script with a slight deviation of 1 or 2 places. nobody seems to be able to scout that well. they basically are choosing between a,b & c. and when they pick correctly we call them a genius.


or its someone like D. Lee who starts out as a serviceable role player and transforms over time into a more complete player

I see your point though

kind of why the foreign scouting could continue to be an advantage, since that sort of doubles the potential talent to find that 2nd rounder who is a keeper

but TBH only KP has truly been paydirt from abroad and he was # 4

Anyway, all other things being equal, even if nobody in the business knows exactly what they're doing, drafting in the top 5 does up the odds of adding franchise talent

not that we'll get that high a pick though
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#326 » by Iron Mantis » Tue Dec 5, 2017 11:06 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Iron Mantis wrote:This tanking/rebuilding business has polarized the crap out of this board :lol:


so many dudes getting emo because some folks want a high pick. As if wanting to add a high pick to this core means you want the team to fail long term.

Yep. It's actually quite the opposite. Pro-Tankers/rebuilders aren't willy nilly about this. We have a long term & truly beneficial vision. We aren't looking for a quick feel-good fix this season off of a couple of Jarrett-Jack/C.Lee led victory adrenaline rushes, only to end up in 9th place, left holding our junk in our hand then seeing Silver screw us over with the 15th pick.

Worst case scenario, we add an actual coveted, tradeable asset. That's how you can put together packages for young stars like your D.Cousins, J.Butlers and K.Irving's when they hit the trading block.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#327 » by god shammgod » Tue Dec 5, 2017 11:06 pm

Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Not top 5, but I think he was under legit consideration from 8-12.

per the bolded part, it is not so much whether there is a league-wide consensus about a player being picked later, but it is about the sole club that realizes that player should go higher when nobody else does and selects them

which begs the question:

Have All-Stars picked after the 15th pick consistently been taken by clubs recognized to have superior management or has it actually been random to the point of luck?

Some clubs are better at drafting than others it seems.

Kahwi - Spurs
Green - GS

are the two that immediately come to mind and those clubs are well managed



2nd round picks, like green, are something else entirely because at that point it's basically an open field and it's mostly about scouting.

but in the lottery you never see, for example, a guy who in a mock draft is predicted to be taken somewhere around 12 or 13 taken, let's say, 3rd by a team. that never happens. but at times those guys do become the 3d best player in the draft. it all mostly goes by script with a slight deviation of 1 or 2 places. nobody seems to be able to scout that well. they basically are choosing between a,b & c. and when they pick correctly we call them a genius.


There was an article out recently where a rival GM essentially said Magic had an advantage in scouting Kuzma because he was so green to the game. He had no idea where everyone was supposed to go and was able to go into workouts with more of a clean slate. Apparently, he was really good but other teams wrote it off as a hot streak.

Then there are the incidents where getting sly all goes wrong. See Bennett, Anthony.


some of it certianly might be about job security. if you pick a guy predicted to go around where you pick and he fails, everybody shrugs it off. if you pick someone who is completely out of the recognized order and he fails, you'll look a lot worse and might be fired. which means the whole process is corrupted.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#328 » by Clyde_Style » Tue Dec 5, 2017 11:08 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:celtics are one team who picks whoever they think is the best player despite their spot in the draft

1.jaylen brown (which i supported)

2. tatum. (another one i supported 8-) ). people thought they was crazy for passing up fultz. then they thought they was even more crazy for passing up jackson for tatum!

ainge a smart mfer


seems that over time Ainge has proven the sense of accumulating the best talent which can always be a trade asset later.

He built a lot of leverage in a few years starting with very little in the cupboard
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#329 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Dec 6, 2017 5:32 am

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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#330 » by GEOLINK » Wed Dec 6, 2017 5:34 am

Beasley's definitely put back on the weight he's lost in the off-season. You can see it in his face.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#331 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Dec 6, 2017 6:31 am

GEOLINK wrote:Beasley's definitely put back on the weight he's lost in the off-season. You can see it in his face.


Why'd he lose weight in the off season? Was he sick or something?
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#332 » by TheDavinciCHODE » Wed Dec 6, 2017 6:50 am

The Knicks are going to be absolutely horrid in the coming weeks but Chicago has already been tank commanding to the tune of 3 wins. We likely have more wins already than they will in April. I don't see us getting any higher than 6th or 7th in this coming draft.

That's still high enough to get a quality player, but man, we always seem to make the worst long-term decision for the franchise regardless of how we do it.

- One of the best players of his generation is available? Let's take Jordan Hill
- We have the chance to tank and get a top 3 pick? Let's win 35 games instead
- We have the chance to trade veterans for future assets and free up space? Let's keep Courtney Lee and sign Joakim Noah
- we have a good center on a team friendly deal that could easily net us a young prospect or some future asset? Nah, let's trade him for D Rose
- Our best player looks like a generational talent but we still have one chance to drop into the top 5 of a loaded draft class and pair him with an elite talent for the next 10 years? Nah, let's sign Tim Hardaway, win 10 games right off the bat, and then tank so we only get the 6th or 7th pick

I don't hate the front office for wanting to be competitive, and I certainly love to see the Knicks win games, but man does it break like S********** for us. Because if we weren't going to the top of the lottery, I wanted us to fight for the playoffs, and that's exactly what we were doing until we got bit by the injury bug, and the bug bit us just a bit too late to really put us in the tank race.

I guess if the team really goes without KP or THJ for a while, then we could feasilby only win 20-23 games on the season, but that would require serious tank skills, and i just don't know if we've got them.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#333 » by Garbagelo » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:21 am

TheDavinciCHODE wrote:The Knicks are going to be absolutely horrid in the coming weeks but Chicago has already been tank commanding to the tune of 3 wins. We likely have more wins already than they will in April. I don't see us getting any higher than 6th or 7th in this coming draft.

That's still high enough to get a quality player, but man, we always seem to make the worst long-term decision for the franchise regardless of how we do it.

- One of the best players of his generation is available? Let's take Jordan Hill
- We have the chance to tank and get a top 3 pick? Let's win 35 games instead
- We have the chance to trade veterans for future assets and free up space? Let's keep Courtney Lee and sign Joakim Noah
- we have a good center on a team friendly deal that could easily net us a young prospect or some future asset? Nah, let's trade him for D Rose
- Our best player looks like a generational talent but we still have one chance to drop into the top 5 of a loaded draft class and pair him with an elite talent for the next 10 years? Nah, let's sign Tim Hardaway, win 10 games right off the bat, and then tank so we only get the 6th or 7th pick

I don't hate the front office for wanting to be competitive, and I certainly love to see the Knicks win games, but man does it break like S********** for us. Because if we weren't going to the top of the lottery, I wanted us to fight for the playoffs, and that's exactly what we were doing until we got bit by the injury bug, and the bug bit us just a bit too late to really put us in the tank race.

I guess if the team really goes without KP or THJ for a while, then we could feasilby only win 20-23 games on the season, but that would require serious tank skills, and i just don't know if we've got them.


Phil was ready to full on tank and would never have signed THJ or made the Melo trade and instead, cut him.

Personally I still feel that was the way to go as it would have set us up to be an elite tank and have been able to develop youth but alas he was fired for it.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#334 » by GEOLINK » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:52 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
GEOLINK wrote:Beasley's definitely put back on the weight he's lost in the off-season. You can see it in his face.


Why'd he lose weight in the off season? Was he sick or something?

Mobility IIRC.
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#335 » by Are We Ther Yet » Wed Dec 6, 2017 8:53 am

I'm all for a top 5 pick. Top 6-7 cool. Not sure how deep this draft is. I just don't think we're that bad without injuries. I don't like losing because of injuries but...it's not bad. Especially getting to see Dotson in an extended role. It puts the tank in view.

I wanted to start nothing but kids going into the season. I wanted the tank rolling from day one. If the kids could stop the tank...cool. That's mostly what we've seen. Full strength...this is closer to an 8 seed than a top 5 pick. Damn! Kanter being this good...which is pretty much what I wanted Billy to become...hurt the tank. Doug...hurt the tank. That damn Melo trade was too good! :lol: Timmy was earning that money. That hurts the tank. KP was unstoppable...killing the tank. Frank showed early promise and sort of slowed down. He helped us win games. That's most of the kids getting burn. If Baker/Dotson/Billy were any good right now we would be a top team in the East.

I don't know how this unfolds. I enjoyed the hell out of every game since Jack took over the point and Frank was in the mix. If that is sustainable and Frank/Dotson etc comes along for the ride...I'm loving it. This would be a fun team to root for in the playoffs. The injuries and the road games to date don't necessarily bode well for a playoff run even if we wanted one.

The tank is idling right now. If this starts to unravel due to injuries and we really are bad on the road...I would hope that the FO is willing to put the tank in gear by the deadline or sooner if possible. I doubt they would break up a .500 team.

Whatever they do...I'm enjoying the season. The 9th seed would sort of kill me though. Falling short and losing draft position would hurt. If we can't make the playoffs...we need to be top ten give or take. Or higher!

We have multiple picks including our own 1st. Nail them!
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#336 » by K-DOT » Wed Dec 6, 2017 2:35 pm

Garbagelo wrote:
TheDavinciCHODE wrote:The Knicks are going to be absolutely horrid in the coming weeks but Chicago has already been tank commanding to the tune of 3 wins. We likely have more wins already than they will in April. I don't see us getting any higher than 6th or 7th in this coming draft.

That's still high enough to get a quality player, but man, we always seem to make the worst long-term decision for the franchise regardless of how we do it.

- One of the best players of his generation is available? Let's take Jordan Hill
- We have the chance to tank and get a top 3 pick? Let's win 35 games instead
- We have the chance to trade veterans for future assets and free up space? Let's keep Courtney Lee and sign Joakim Noah
- we have a good center on a team friendly deal that could easily net us a young prospect or some future asset? Nah, let's trade him for D Rose
- Our best player looks like a generational talent but we still have one chance to drop into the top 5 of a loaded draft class and pair him with an elite talent for the next 10 years? Nah, let's sign Tim Hardaway, win 10 games right off the bat, and then tank so we only get the 6th or 7th pick

I don't hate the front office for wanting to be competitive, and I certainly love to see the Knicks win games, but man does it break like S********** for us. Because if we weren't going to the top of the lottery, I wanted us to fight for the playoffs, and that's exactly what we were doing until we got bit by the injury bug, and the bug bit us just a bit too late to really put us in the tank race.

I guess if the team really goes without KP or THJ for a while, then we could feasilby only win 20-23 games on the season, but that would require serious tank skills, and i just don't know if we've got them.


Phil was ready to full on tank and would never have signed THJ or made the Melo trade and instead, cut him.

Personally I still feel that was the way to go as it would have set us up to be an elite tank and have been able to develop youth but alas he was fired for it.

Phil was gonna use that THJ money on George Hill

I'd rather have THJ, Kanter, McDermott, and the 2nd rather than just Hill and having to pay Melo through next year
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#337 » by Jeff Van Gully » Wed Dec 6, 2017 2:41 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
IllmaticHandler wrote:Before Things get outta hand and people try to rewrite things,....




yeah. we talking semantics. i embrace the Ls or the Ws so long as it's true to the youngsters. i think for the most part that's where we are, so i don't trip over either.

the veterans who are playing aren't here for ephemeral win totals. they're here for the kids, really. boyz II men. and i like the vets we have.



basically. Not sure what the problem is. We have no control over it. I'm not mad when then win...im not mad when they lose. Me rooting for L's is pointless, it has no effect on the actual outcome. People that put so much energy into things they cant control are just funny to me. Who doesn't want the best pick possible...but if they play at a level where its not possible to have a top pick...why be a crybaby about it. YOU HAVE NO FUCCKING CONTROL OVER IT.

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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#338 » by blanko » Wed Dec 6, 2017 5:20 pm

the thing is that this is a big man heavy draft. We are set there, but if Timmy and KP are hurt... **** it tank on
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Re: Post game: No Papa Johns 

Post#339 » by mugzi » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:45 am

GEOLINK wrote:Beasley's definitely put back on the weight he's lost in the off-season. You can see it in his face.


Munchies. He found a plug as soon as we signed him.
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