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Knicks-Grizz Postgame

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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#341 » by j4remi » Thu Dec 7, 2017 6:56 pm

Capn'O wrote:I've seen both arguments made. That we're all of a sudden going to start playing better opponents on the road. The better opponents part isn't true. Now, if the team doesn't figure out how to get up for road games then, yes, they'll fall back considerably. Like, they should smack Chicago tomorrow if they have any intention of keeping up with a .500 pace.

I offer that a confounding variable is KP's availability for the past few road games. And we were missing him for the first road game with Orlando too. We ain't **** without him.


Idk, I'm not willing to make health an excuse since it's been part of my argument for why we're not a .500 team all along. The "if we're healthy" caveat is a hypothetical that doesn't happen for 90% teams. We didn't just look like trash when KP went down, losing Kanter threw the rotations into chaos as well. God forbid we lose Lee before THJ returns. Also I didn't look it over so maybe it's bias, but I'm looking at the recent stretch and finding it hard to believe that our schedule after Brooklyn isn't gonna be much more hostile than say...the month or so before. Just this past stretch of 4 or 5 games is gonna skew the numbers enough that I'm feeling lucky on that speculative stance (granted, I could be wrong too lazy to look).
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#342 » by Capn'O » Thu Dec 7, 2017 6:57 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:
GONYK wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:
Its not that i think hes defying the front offices wishes, its that i dont think hes a good coach at all. Especially when it comes to developing talent.

Imo he's a big reason why frank has struggled mightily this season.


I'm interested in why you feel that. Care to elaborate?


Frank should be getting the majority of his minutes with the first unit. Thats where is his skills would be better utilized.

Instead he plays him mostly with the second unit where his inability to break down a defense is amplified. He also should be getting the majority of his minutes with the kp which he hasn't.

Theirs absolutely no way jarret jack should have played 32 mins to franks 20 last night none.

I could go on and on about his rotation mismanagement but its clear he's just a horrible coach so that speaks for itself.


Cutting my shtick - what I would do at this point is to still start Jack but bring Frank in as the first sub roughly halfway through the first. This would give him more time with KP, which is a relationship we need to cultivate, and unpair him from Beasley, who would benefit from veteran play.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#343 » by GONYK » Thu Dec 7, 2017 6:59 pm

Capn'O wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:
GONYK wrote:
I'm interested in why you feel that. Care to elaborate?


Frank should be getting the majority of his minutes with the first unit. Thats where is his skills would be better utilized.

Instead he plays him mostly with the second unit where his inability to break down a defense is amplified. He also should be getting the majority of his minutes with the kp which he hasn't.

Theirs absolutely no way jarret jack should have played 32 mins to franks 20 last night none.

I could go on and on about his rotation mismanagement but its clear he's just a horrible coach so that speaks for itself.


Cutting my shtick - what I would do at this point is to still start Jack but bring Frank in as the first sub roughly halfway through the first. This would give him more time with KP, which is a relationship we need to cultivate, and unpair him from Beasley, who would benefit from veteran play.


I was basically thinking along the same lines. Frank comes in earlier, and then you feel out his foul situation. He still gets to play with KP, which is statistically the best pairing for both of them.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#344 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:13 pm

GONYK wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:
Frank should be getting the majority of his minutes with the first unit. Thats where is his skills would be better utilized.

Instead he plays him mostly with the second unit where his inability to break down a defense is amplified. He also should be getting the majority of his minutes with the kp which he hasn't.

Theirs absolutely no way jarret jack should have played 32 mins to franks 20 last night none.

I could go on and on about his rotation mismanagement but its clear he's just a horrible coach so that speaks for itself.


Cutting my shtick - what I would do at this point is to still start Jack but bring Frank in as the first sub roughly halfway through the first. This would give him more time with KP, which is a relationship we need to cultivate, and unpair him from Beasley, who would benefit from veteran play.


I was basically thinking along the same lines. Frank comes in earlier, and then you feel out his foul situation. He still gets to play with KP, which is statistically the best pairing for both of them.


and let frank stay in if he's clicking that night. jack's exhausted ass won't care about the lessened PT.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#345 » by K P 6 » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:18 pm

KOQ has been trash and Willy still cant get a meaningful opportunity. Thats unacceptable. Dotson ends the game well and you drop his minutes the next game. Since the game he pulled Frank in the 4th ive been pissed at him.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#346 » by K P 6 » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:21 pm

Melo was brought up to make a point about winning games this year when we sucked worse without him in previous years. Not like someone just came in the thread and said "Melo trash"
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Re: RE: Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#347 » by Jimmit79 » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:25 pm

K P 6 wrote:KOQ has been trash and Willy still cant get a meaningful opportunity. Thats unacceptable. Dotson ends the game well and you drop his minutes the next game. Since the game he pulled Frank in the 4th ive been pissed at him.
Jeff cares more about his job than development.

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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#348 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:28 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
GONYK wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
Cutting my shtick - what I would do at this point is to still start Jack but bring Frank in as the first sub roughly halfway through the first. This would give him more time with KP, which is a relationship we need to cultivate, and unpair him from Beasley, who would benefit from veteran play.


I was basically thinking along the same lines. Frank comes in earlier, and then you feel out his foul situation. He still gets to play with KP, which is statistically the best pairing for both of them.


and let frank stay in if he's clicking that night. jack's exhausted ass won't care about the lessened PT.


That is really the biggest issue imo. Frank will sometimes string together a few nice plays, or make one mistake then will be pulled from the game. Jeff has to loosen the leash and let him go a little more. It doesn't seem like he is tired and looks like he can def play more.

His foul situation is an issue in that he def has to learn to cut some of them down, but it shouldn't prevent him from playing more. It's not like he is fouling out or finishing the game anyway.

Looked like he was trending up, then came back down...hopefully its only a matter of time and minutes start going back up again
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#349 » by Jimmit79 » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:29 pm

Knicks need a coach like steven the type who maximize our talent and play the young guns. I don't care if they miss the playoffs or lotto but frank willy and dotson need consistent mins and right coaching because being pulled out during close games in 4th or put in during garbage time is not going to help them excel.

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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#350 » by Capn'O » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:30 pm

j4remi wrote:
Capn'O wrote:I've seen both arguments made. That we're all of a sudden going to start playing better opponents on the road. The better opponents part isn't true. Now, if the team doesn't figure out how to get up for road games then, yes, they'll fall back considerably. Like, they should smack Chicago tomorrow if they have any intention of keeping up with a .500 pace.

I offer that a confounding variable is KP's availability for the past few road games. And we were missing him for the first road game with Orlando too. We ain't **** without him.


Idk, I'm not willing to make health an excuse since it's been part of my argument for why we're not a .500 team all along. The "if we're healthy" caveat is a hypothetical that doesn't happen for 90% teams. We didn't just look like trash when KP went down, losing Kanter threw the rotations into chaos as well. God forbid we lose Lee before THJ returns. Also I didn't look it over so maybe it's bias, but I'm looking at the recent stretch and finding it hard to believe that our schedule after Brooklyn isn't gonna be much more hostile than say...the month or so before. Just this past stretch of 4 or 5 games is gonna skew the numbers enough that I'm feeling lucky on that speculative stance (granted, I could be wrong too lazy to look).


The question I'm asking is whether we're really that bad on the road or whether we're that bad without KP? He's missed a lot of recent road games against easier teams so the two are confounded. I can't conclude we'll be a sub .300 team on the road just yet.

This is our schedule through February by quality of opponent - Road games in Blue:

Non-Playoff Teams - 13 games
Chicago
Atlanta
LAL
Brooklyn
Charlotte*
Chicago
Brooklyn
Memphis*
LAL
Chicago
Dallas
Phoenix
Brooklyn

*These guys could turn it around

Likely-Playoff Teams - 10 games
OKC
Detroit
Philly
New Orleans
New Orleans
Utah
Washington
Miami
Minny
Denver

Contendahs!!! - 5 games
Boston
SAS
SAS
Golden State
Boston


Point being, if we're really that bad on the road, we're kinda ****. If we can figure that out, there are plenty of beatable opponents in this upcoming stretch that will then lead to a more home/road neutral finish. No teams stay healthy but I can't confidently say that we can't beat a lot of these teams with KP in the lineup. Many, we already have.
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Re: RE: Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#351 » by whocares1 » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:41 pm

Jimmit79 wrote:
K P 6 wrote:KOQ has been trash and Willy still cant get a meaningful opportunity. Thats unacceptable. Dotson ends the game well and you drop his minutes the next game. Since the game he pulled Frank in the 4th ive been pissed at him.
Jeff cares more about his job than development.

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Can't really blame him. He's trying to win games just like every coach in the league does. It's up to management to tell him to play the young kids more.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#352 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:45 pm

Capn'O wrote:
j4remi wrote:
Capn'O wrote:I've seen both arguments made. That we're all of a sudden going to start playing better opponents on the road. The better opponents part isn't true. Now, if the team doesn't figure out how to get up for road games then, yes, they'll fall back considerably. Like, they should smack Chicago tomorrow if they have any intention of keeping up with a .500 pace.

I offer that a confounding variable is KP's availability for the past few road games. And we were missing him for the first road game with Orlando too. We ain't **** without him.


Idk, I'm not willing to make health an excuse since it's been part of my argument for why we're not a .500 team all along. The "if we're healthy" caveat is a hypothetical that doesn't happen for 90% teams. We didn't just look like trash when KP went down, losing Kanter threw the rotations into chaos as well. God forbid we lose Lee before THJ returns. Also I didn't look it over so maybe it's bias, but I'm looking at the recent stretch and finding it hard to believe that our schedule after Brooklyn isn't gonna be much more hostile than say...the month or so before. Just this past stretch of 4 or 5 games is gonna skew the numbers enough that I'm feeling lucky on that speculative stance (granted, I could be wrong too lazy to look).


The question I'm asking is whether we're really that bad on the road or whether we're that bad without KP? He's missed a lot of recent road games against easier teams so the two are confounded. I can't conclude we'll be a sub .300 team on the road just yet.

This is our schedule through February by quality of opponent - Road games in Blue:

Non-Playoff Teams - 13 games
Chicago
Atlanta
LAL
Brooklyn
Charlotte*
Chicago
Brooklyn
Memphis*
LAL
Chicago
Dallas
Phoenix
Brooklyn

*These guys could turn it around

Likely-Playoff Teams - 10 games
OKC
Detroit
Philly
New Orleans
New Orleans
Utah
Washington
Miami
Minny
Denver

Contendahs!!! - 5 games
Boston
SAS
SAS
Golden State
Boston


Point being, if we're really that bad on the road, we're kinda ****. If we can figure that out, there are plenty of beatable opponents in this upcoming stretch that will then lead to a more home/road neutral finish. No teams stay healthy but I can't confidently say that we can't beat a lot of these teams with KP in the lineup. Many, we already have.


If everyone is healthy, including Timmy, then they could beat any team on any given night, road or home.

This is mostly a new team so a quarter season is still early in their playing together which is another way to say if they are going to continue to grow with one another then gelling should reasonably point to some increase in consistency and a better road record.

Without KP, this is a bottom dweller. But no Timmy may be the difference between playoffs or not.

Health factors are a concern for every team, but we don't have the depth yet to handle key injuries.

Unless Lee continues to score 20+ in Timmy's absence in which case they could beat many teams right now.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#353 » by j4remi » Thu Dec 7, 2017 7:50 pm

Capn'O wrote:
The question I'm asking is whether we're really that bad on the road or whether we're that bad without KP? He's missed a lot of recent road games against easier teams so the two are confounded. I can't conclude we'll be a sub .300 team on the road just yet.

This is our schedule through February by quality of opponent - Road games in Blue:

Non-Playoff Teams - 13 games
Chicago
Atlanta
LAL
Brooklyn
Charlotte*
Chicago
Brooklyn
Memphis*
LAL
Chicago
Dallas
Phoenix
Brooklyn

*These guys could turn it around

Likely-Playoff Teams - 10 games
OKC
Detroit
Philly
New Orleans
New Orleans
Utah
Washington
Miami
Minny
Denver

Contendahs!!! - 5 games
Boston
SAS
SAS
Golden State
Boston


Point being, if we're really that bad on the road, we're kinda ****. If we can figure that out, there are plenty of beatable opponents in this upcoming stretch that will then lead to a more home/road neutral finish. No teams stay healthy but I can't confidently say that we can't beat a lot of these teams with KP in the lineup. Many, we already have.


I think it's both. We're that bad without KP AND we're awful on the road. It's not like we've looked stellar with KP out there besides the one game in Cleveland. Again, I'm not about to give our road record a pass for the games without KP bc I'm sure the Grizzlies fans think they'd have a better chance with Conley or that Pacers fans think Myles Turner is the reason they won our second match-up for example. A stretch of 19 road games in 28 total games isn't just bad because of mental aspects, a team on the road usually looks fatigued and worse for wear by the end of a road trip turning "winnable" games into uphill battles.

The real question is probably as simple "Do you expect us to be a .500 team after this 28 game stretch you've pulled?" My answer is no.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#354 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:11 pm

There's a lot of bad and mediocre teams. That might give us a chance to make the playoffs if a lot of things go our way.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#355 » by j4remi » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:13 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:There's a lot of bad and mediocre teams. That might give us a chance to make the playoffs if a lot of things go our way.


:lol: Definitely why I'm not mad at anyone who says we are who our current record says we are. I think we fall off but there are plenty of teams in a similar vein as us and a handful that are complete dumpster fires even this early.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#356 » by Capn'O » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:15 pm

j4remi wrote:The real question is probably as simple "Do you expect us to be a .500 team after this 28 game stretch you've pulled?" My answer is no.


If I had to put my money down, I'd put us at about 3 or 4 games below by February. A falloff but not a sharp one.

And, I might add, this goes against what I'd hope for the team which is a more distinct pattern either upwards or down.



We'll have injuries and so will other teams. But KP missing significant time changes that. We're probably a .300 team in that case.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#357 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:28 pm

j4remi wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:There's a lot of bad and mediocre teams. That might give us a chance to make the playoffs if a lot of things go our way.


:lol: Definitely why I'm not mad at anyone who says we are who our current record says we are. I think we fall off but there are plenty of teams in a similar vein as us and a handful that are complete dumpster fires even this early.


The key might be out defense. It has been surprisingly decent. There might even be room to get better if Frank can get some more PT.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#358 » by j4remi » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:29 pm

Capn'O wrote:
j4remi wrote:The real question is probably as simple "Do you expect us to be a .500 team after this 28 game stretch you've pulled?" My answer is no.


If I had to put my money down, I'd put us at about 3 or 4 games below by February. A falloff but not a sharp one.

And, I might add, this goes against what I'd hope for the team which is a more distinct pattern either upwards or down.



We'll have injuries and so will other teams. But KP missing significant time changes that. We're probably a .300 team in that case.


I'd hedge closer to 6-8 under, but that's because I'm expecting some injuries and fall off for fatigue...which I agree would actually be better than 4 because at least it gives us a clearer direction.
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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#359 » by ctorres » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:42 pm

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Re: Knicks-Grizz Postgame 

Post#360 » by El Poochio » Thu Dec 7, 2017 8:45 pm

Capn'O wrote:
j4remi wrote:
Capn'O wrote:I've seen both arguments made. That we're all of a sudden going to start playing better opponents on the road. The better opponents part isn't true. Now, if the team doesn't figure out how to get up for road games then, yes, they'll fall back considerably. Like, they should smack Chicago tomorrow if they have any intention of keeping up with a .500 pace.

I offer that a confounding variable is KP's availability for the past few road games. And we were missing him for the first road game with Orlando too. We ain't **** without him.


Idk, I'm not willing to make health an excuse since it's been part of my argument for why we're not a .500 team all along. The "if we're healthy" caveat is a hypothetical that doesn't happen for 90% teams. We didn't just look like trash when KP went down, losing Kanter threw the rotations into chaos as well. God forbid we lose Lee before THJ returns. Also I didn't look it over so maybe it's bias, but I'm looking at the recent stretch and finding it hard to believe that our schedule after Brooklyn isn't gonna be much more hostile than say...the month or so before. Just this past stretch of 4 or 5 games is gonna skew the numbers enough that I'm feeling lucky on that speculative stance (granted, I could be wrong too lazy to look).


The question I'm asking is whether we're really that bad on the road or whether we're that bad without KP? He's missed a lot of recent road games against easier teams so the two are confounded. I can't conclude we'll be a sub .300 team on the road just yet.

This is our schedule through February by quality of opponent - Road games in Blue:

Non-Playoff Teams - 13 games
Chicago
Atlanta
LAL
Brooklyn
Charlotte*
Chicago
Brooklyn
Memphis*
LAL
Chicago
Dallas
Phoenix
Brooklyn

*These guys could turn it around

Likely-Playoff Teams - 10 games
OKC
Detroit
Philly
New Orleans
New Orleans
Utah
Washington
Miami
Minny
Denver

Contendahs!!! - 5 games
Boston
SAS
SAS
Golden State
Boston


Point being, if we're really that bad on the road, we're kinda ****. If we can figure that out, there are plenty of beatable opponents in this upcoming stretch that will then lead to a more home/road neutral finish. No teams stay healthy but I can't confidently say that we can't beat a lot of these teams with KP in the lineup. Many, we already have.


Great work Cap, plenty of shİt teams in the fix list still so there are gonna be wins as long as there is good guard play from combo of One Eyed Jack Frank Lee Dead THJ

Our half azzed rebuild will beat full throttle rebuilds once again, cant see us beating out one of Pistons Pacers for playoffs though
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