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PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#581 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:15 pm

Yeah, pretty obvious we are playing to win. The middle ground that you don't want to be in where we are not bad enough to bottom out and probably not good enough to make the playoffs. We might be too stubborn to make any moves that could help us in the future if it sacrices pieces that help us now (KOQ, Lee, etc). Then who knows what we will do next offseason?

Even still, just seems like playing Frank more would give s a better chance to win anyway...oh well.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#582 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:19 pm

maybe we save SOME our judgment about the direction of the season until the trade deadline?
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#583 » by Juco24 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:19 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Juco24 wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
For a team that's obviously rebuilding- Holiday at 2 years 9 million seems a lot better than whatever absurd contract they gave Hardaway- who's in witness protection.


Not trying to piss anyone off.... but it's EXTREMELY hard for me believe that this franchise just allowed Holliday to walk and used the same monies to sign Baker! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


crazy that baker is young and fits the timeline?


But their goal is to make the playoffs AND they're playing Jack way more minutes than Frank! And they're not developing Willie... if that be the case - Holiday should've been your signee! Immediately, the best SF you'd have on your roster. Then you wouldn't have to play LFT. Lee could sub out THJ.

It would be one thing if the current regime was trying to develop the young, but Frank, Dotson, Baker, Willie don't get much burn as the Knicks staff are hellbent on making the playoffs. And again, if that's your goal: You sign Holiday and not Baker!
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#584 » by Reign23 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:22 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:I'm really coming around to the "KP might be a good shooter for 7'3" but so what" idea someone had once upon a time.

I mean, when there are a bunch of 6'10 to 7'1" guys who shoot much better than he does, I'm not seeing it as such as asset.

To put it another way, he's a GREAT shooter for 7'3", but he's merely "ok" for a stretch 4 and that's his position right now.


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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#585 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:33 pm

Juco24 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Juco24 wrote:
Not trying to piss anyone off.... but it's EXTREMELY hard for me believe that this franchise just allowed Holliday to walk and used the same monies to sign Baker! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


crazy that baker is young and fits the timeline?


But their goal is to make the playoffs AND they're playing Jack way more minutes than Frank! And they're not developing Willie... if that be the case - Holiday should've been your signee! Immediately, the best SF you'd have on your roster. Then you wouldn't have to play LFT. Lee could sub out THJ.

It would be one thing if the current regime was trying to develop the young, but Frank, Dotson, Baker, Willie don't get much burn as the Knicks staff are hellbent on making the playoffs. And again, if that's your goal: You sign Holiday and not Baker!


dotson and billy are the only young players not in the rotation. dotson has gotten opportunities to play and looked pretty bad. later in the season is the time for players like tim to get run, after you've fallen out of contention. that hasn't happened yet.

billy is in a center logjam that we expect to be resolved by all-star break. and even if it isn't, there's nothing keeping him out of the rotation for the next 2 years of his deal. worst-case scenario (for him) he slides into the backup role next season. best-case scenario (for him), both kanter and KO get traded for picks and expirings so he can start.

baker is in the rotation in his backup combo guard role and defensive units/assignments.

mcdermott is in the rotation.

frank is playing plenty. i agree that he should be starting and could be playing more, but i don't have a problem with his place right now.

lance is only in the rotation because tim hardaway is out. hornacek said as much just today.

lee is a starter on this team. nothing wrong with ONE veteran starter.

beasley is the only viable backup to KP. and hornacek said his minutes are at risk too when tim returns.

sessions is not in the rotation.

noah is not in the rotation.

doesn't really make sense to bring in justin holiday for a non-minimum deal when he isn't part of the future plan. perry inherited lee, lance, and noah. lee is a win-win because you could trade him for assets, or he can stay and continue to add value.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#586 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:37 pm

Reign23 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:I'm really coming around to the "KP might be a good shooter for 7'3" but so what" idea someone had once upon a time.

I mean, when there are a bunch of 6'10 to 7'1" guys who shoot much better than he does, I'm not seeing it as such as asset.

To put it another way, he's a GREAT shooter for 7'3", but he's merely "ok" for a stretch 4 and that's his position right now.


this


long way from 6'10" to 7'3". he can see over 6'10" guys.

name the superior shooters.

whoever they may be, tell me how they are better and more effective players than KP who at 7'3" has an alarming array of skills on both sides of the ball.

are we really having a "KP might as well be ryan anderson" conversation?
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#587 » by Dr. Detfink » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:11 pm

Forget the match ups for a minute. The Knicks simply are NOT a playoff team. If you can't beat the woeful Bulls once, this shines a light on this team.

Now, Team President Steve "Wind" Mills and GM Tyler Perry have to make a decision. They maintain, intentional rebuilding aka tanking is NOT an option but I don't know how you rebuild without any willing trade partners, cap space, etc without tanking.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#588 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:27 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Reign23 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:I'm really coming around to the "KP might be a good shooter for 7'3" but so what" idea someone had once upon a time.

I mean, when there are a bunch of 6'10 to 7'1" guys who shoot much better than he does, I'm not seeing it as such as asset.

To put it another way, he's a GREAT shooter for 7'3", but he's merely "ok" for a stretch 4 and that's his position right now.


this


long way from 6'10" to 7'3". he can see over 6'10" guys.

name the superior shooters.

whoever they may be, tell me how they are better and more effective players than KP who at 7'3" has an alarming array of skills on both sides of the ball.

are we really having a "KP might as well be ryan anderson" conversation?


KP has a lot of skills and is a good defender, but outside of rim protection, isn't dominant in any of his skills. Does he drive the ball with skill and authority, even for a big? Not really. Is he a good outside shooter for a stretch 4? He's good, but not great. Is his post game strong? No.

Is he a good all around player who has a lot of skills? Yes. Is he the best defender among bigs who stretch the floor? Probably.

Other better shooters who are tall? Dirk, Lauri, Jokic, Cousins, Anderson, Parsons (if he's really 6'10"). Guys who are tall and effective who shoot as well? Broke Lopez, Jokic, Embiid? Can probably argue half the list but it's quite a few tall guys who are good shooters. I'm sure there are more, I wasn't even thinking hard at all for that list.

KP's a very good player. He's a good piece to have because he has all around skills (which all need work), and he's a deterrent on D and he can stretch the floor just by being out there, but his offense is a far cry from carrying a team now (ever?) and his shooting, while he has to be accounted for for floor balance on offense, not sure he's really the kind of shooter who kills teams if open, like Lauri did or Ryan Anderson does often. Then again they don't defend like him.

I'm not bashing KP, just acknowledging he's more a "piece" than "the man". Which is good, because outside the Knicks determination to force feed him the ball this year, he's shown an inclination since day 1 to be a team player, so when the Knicks go out and get the 6 other players they need for this team to be good and have depth, if they do it with any intelligence (long shot), they should mesh well.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#589 » by QueensG718 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:28 pm

Kanter should play down the stretch point blank period! This is an offensive league man. Ko isnt ben wallace or rodman defensively. Gtfoh. Hornacek has no clue wtf he doing

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#590 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:Forget the match ups for a minute. The Knicks simply are NOT a playoff team. If you can't beat the woeful Bulls once, this shines a light on this team.

Now, Team President Steve "Wind" Mills and GM Tyler Perry have to make a decision. They maintain, intentional rebuilding aka tanking is NOT an option but I don't know how you rebuild without any willing trade partners, cap space, etc without tanking.


Interesting thing about sports - you are what your record is, and who you beat and lose to, more or less.

We can argue if it's Jeff, or the players. Or who is good at what or not good at what. If KP is there yet, or will get there. What Frank is.

What's undeniable at THIS present juncture is the Knicks, collectively, from coach to players, aren't good. (or suck, if you will)

I'm not sure what it is. I think I have a couple of ideas, but what I'm really sure is is that this team isn't any good.

And considering the fact that retreads are 4/5's it's rotation, that aren't even interesting.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#591 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Yeah, pretty obvious we are playing to win. The middle ground that you don't want to be in where we are not bad enough to bottom out and probably not good enough to make the playoffs. We might be too stubborn to make any moves that could help us in the future if it sacrices pieces that help us now (KOQ, Lee, etc). Then who knows what we will do next offseason?

Even still, just seems like playing Frank more would give s a better chance to win anyway...oh well.



Which is sad, because it's plain as day the team isn't any good. Even if THJr comes back.

I mean, last legs Jack and a raw rookie is the PG rotation. Come on. Or the SF rotation is LFT, McD and Beasley. Two cast offs and a guy we wish the Knicks would cast off. And so on.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#592 » by QueensG718 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:49 pm

Markannen has the body kp wishes he had. Kp really must have a serious issue with anemia and he will never develop that strengh and stamina he needs. Kp for markannen and dunn lol

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#593 » by Reign23 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Reign23 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:I'm really coming around to the "KP might be a good shooter for 7'3" but so what" idea someone had once upon a time.

I mean, when there are a bunch of 6'10 to 7'1" guys who shoot much better than he does, I'm not seeing it as such as asset.

To put it another way, he's a GREAT shooter for 7'3", but he's merely "ok" for a stretch 4 and that's his position right now.


this


long way from 6'10" to 7'3". he can see over 6'10" guys.

name the superior shooters.

whoever they may be, tell me how they are better and more effective players than KP who at 7'3" has an alarming array of skills on both sides of the ball.

are we really having a "KP might as well be ryan anderson" conversation?


nope but he his major strenghts are rim protection and "shooting-for-his-size". So if he is not playing center he has to chase quicker PFs around the perimeter and is just an above average shooter for a 4. he could be such a weapon at the five, but ah nevermind... we are the knicks
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#594 » by Capn'O » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:29 pm

god shammgod wrote:they'll be no sell off.


That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#595 » by Reign23 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:30 pm

Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:they'll be no sell off.


That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.


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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#596 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:58 pm

Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:they'll be no sell off.


That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.


It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#597 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:00 pm

Reign23 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Reign23 wrote:
this


long way from 6'10" to 7'3". he can see over 6'10" guys.

name the superior shooters.

whoever they may be, tell me how they are better and more effective players than KP who at 7'3" has an alarming array of skills on both sides of the ball.

are we really having a "KP might as well be ryan anderson" conversation?


nope but he his major strenghts are rim protection and "shooting-for-his-size". So if he is not playing center he has to chase quicker PFs around the perimeter and is just an above average shooter for a 4. he could be such a weapon at the five, but ah nevermind... we are the knicks


Let's not blatantly disregard that we've never seen a man his size move the way he does.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#598 » by Greenie » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:11 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:maybe we save SOME our judgment about the direction of the season until the trade deadline?

That's not entertaining to me.
Especially when we ain't about **** and everyone knows it. I say judge the team right now. Love or hate? Your choice.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#599 » by Greenie » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:12 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Reign23 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
long way from 6'10" to 7'3". he can see over 6'10" guys.

name the superior shooters.

whoever they may be, tell me how they are better and more effective players than KP who at 7'3" has an alarming array of skills on both sides of the ball.

are we really having a "KP might as well be ryan anderson" conversation?


nope but he his major strenghts are rim protection and "shooting-for-his-size". So if he is not playing center he has to chase quicker PFs around the perimeter and is just an above average shooter for a 4. he could be such a weapon at the five, but ah nevermind... we are the knicks


Let's not blatantly disregard that we've never seen a man his size move the way he does.

So?
That doesn't mean **** if he doesn't use it to his advantage.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#600 » by Capn'O » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:31 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:they'll be no sell off.


That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.


It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.


It should happen either way unless they're figuring as a top-4 seed. The Knicks have a glut and of guys that don't figure into the long term plans.
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