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PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#601 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:31 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
god shammgod wrote:they'll be no sell off.


That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.


It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.


It's not too early at all. Wildest best case scenario is Knicks sneak into the last playoff spot and get pounded by whoever in 4 games.

That's still a treadmill team. Big picture.

Also, this team isn't going anywhere. This is a team that an barely beat the Mavs and can't beat the Bulls and can't beat nearly anyone on the road. At best sounds like a 35-38 win team. And that "best" is the worst thing. Tank baby.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#602 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:42 pm

Capn'O wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.


It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.


It should happen either way unless they're figuring as a top-4 seed. The Knicks have a glut and of guys that don't figure into the long term plans.


You know that so long as we're sniffing the playoffs that we won't tank.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#603 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:50 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
That's the real problem. I can't fault coaches for coaching to win and players for playing to win. The front office, in contrast, needs to figure out the best direction for the franchise.

And I agree that the early indications are not promising.


It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.


It's not too early at all. Wildest best case scenario is Knicks sneak into the last playoff spot and get pounded by whoever in 4 games.

That's still a treadmill team. Big picture.

Also, this team isn't going anywhere. This is a team that an barely beat the Mavs and can't beat the Bulls and can't beat nearly anyone on the road. At best sounds like a 35-38 win team. And that "best" is the worst thing. Tank baby.


Best case scenario is that we end up around no. 6 or even 5. Teams 4 through 10 are only separated by 3 or 4 games. That's nothing. And now we get Timmy back and maybe we something happens at the deadline. P

Plenty of time

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#604 » by Capn'O » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:51 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.


It should happen either way unless they're figuring as a top-4 seed. The Knicks have a glut and of guys that don't figure into the long term plans.


You know that so long as we're sniffing the playoffs that we won't tank.


Not tank.

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#605 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:55 pm

Capn'O wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
It should happen either way unless they're figuring as a top-4 seed. The Knicks have a glut and of guys that don't figure into the long term plans.


You know that so long as we're sniffing the playoffs that we won't tank.


Not tank.

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Trade deadline salesapalooza type shyt? If they come to us with a good offer, then sure. But I don't want cow dung back. We're playing for 2020.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#606 » by dakomish23 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:56 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Yeah, pretty obvious we are playing to win. The middle ground that you don't want to be in where we are not bad enough to bottom out and probably not good enough to make the playoffs. We might be too stubborn to make any moves that could help us in the future if it sacrices pieces that help us now (KOQ, Lee, etc). Then who knows what we will do next offseason?

Even still, just seems like playing Frank more would give s a better chance to win anyway...oh well.


Not just Frank IMO.

The youth movement could of ended being the better team if we started he development from the beginning.
Dkillanyk4lyf wrote:Melo is the reason why we are in the mess we are in now. Acquiring him was the biggest mistake in knicks history.


blueNorange wrote:good thing knicks have kanter because willy looking pedestrian af
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#607 » by thebuzzardman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:30 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
It's too early to make that call especially with Hardaway due back within the next week. We're still a good month away from this being decided and even then, assuming that it's fairly obvious that we're not making the playoffs, the movement will shift incrementally and not in "one fell swoop," as the young kids like to say these days.


It's not too early at all. Wildest best case scenario is Knicks sneak into the last playoff spot and get pounded by whoever in 4 games.

That's still a treadmill team. Big picture.

Also, this team isn't going anywhere. This is a team that an barely beat the Mavs and can't beat the Bulls and can't beat nearly anyone on the road. At best sounds like a 35-38 win team. And that "best" is the worst thing. Tank baby.


Best case scenario is that we end up around no. 6 or even 5. Teams 4 through 10 are only separated by 3 or 4 games. That's nothing. And now we get Timmy back and maybe we something happens at the deadline. P

Plenty of time

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#608 » by Rock Bottom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:16 am

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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#609 » by iCallBankshot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am

Has anyone ever thought WINNING might be good for player development plus creating a WINNING culture? People are taking this tanking strategy to an obscene level. I understand the wonders of a top-5 pick but remember Andrea Bargnani went #1, Darko went #2, Anthony Bennett, and countless other busts. Meanwhile Kyle Kuzma, Draymond Green, Manu Ginobili and even Kawhi plus countless others went late round and second round. Good drafting is good drafting. I'm not with the let's lose on purpose strategy. Let's win and draft smart.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#610 » by eagle54 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:48 am

iCallBankshot wrote:Has anyone ever thought WINNING might be good for player development plus creating a WINNING culture? People are taking this tanking strategy to an obscene level. I understand the wonders of a top-5 pick but remember Andrea Bargnani went #1, Darko went #2, Anthony Bennett, and countless other busts. Meanwhile Kyle Kuzma, Draymond Green, Manu Ginobili and even Kawhi plus countless others went late round and second round. Good drafting is good drafting. I'm not with the let's lose on purpose strategy. Let's win and draft smart.


Pistons went to PO 2 years ago, where are their winning culture ? They need talents...
If you have a best pick you can choose, if you have a 25th pick, you can be in love with a young player but there are 24 teams which can take it before you... It's a big draft this year in the top 15, not an average or poor draft, that's why lots of people want a last tanking year.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#611 » by TheDavinciCHODE » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:37 am

As sad it is.....


The Bulls are more talented than the Knicks.

Also, I think this game clearly shows why perimeter talent and guards are so important in this league.

Lauri Markannen got shot after shot after shot up. Really good looks too. Even average NBA guards like Dunn and Nawaba make offense way easier on bigs. It's really striking.

It just takes so much longer to facilitate through a big man in the post and it's so much easier for defense to make life difficult AND when we facilitate through KP in the post, it takes him away from where he is most dangerous IMO and that's either behind the arc or at the elbow in a pick and pop.

The fact that Lauri got up like 15 clean looks from 3 and KP only got 6 is depressing. Even an average NBA PG would make our team so much more dangerous. At this point, having a player like Dunn would be way better for our team than having Kanter at C, even though objectively Kanter is the "better" player.

The fact that we didn't have Timmy didn't help either.

Until the Knicks get a guard that can facilitate an offense, pentrate off the dribble, make a shot, and get in transition, like, ya know, the average NBA point guard, we have no hopes of being a good offense.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#612 » by TheDavinciCHODE » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:47 am

iCallBankshot wrote:Has anyone ever thought WINNING might be good for player development plus creating a WINNING culture? People are taking this tanking strategy to an obscene level. I understand the wonders of a top-5 pick but remember Andrea Bargnani went #1, Darko went #2, Anthony Bennett, and countless other busts. Meanwhile Kyle Kuzma, Draymond Green, Manu Ginobili and even Kawhi plus countless others went late round and second round. Good drafting is good drafting. I'm not with the let's lose on purpose strategy. Let's win and draft smart.



Winning is great. As long as it has a direction. Winning when the team's trajectory is pointed up is a great thing. Winning as a young team with room to grow is a great thing. Winning with assets to make a splash or space to sign needed players is a great thing. Winning knowing your 2-3 year window starts now and closes at the end of a player's prime is a great thing.

The Knicks are doing the worst kind of winning: winning with no direction and no hope of contention in the near future. The Knicks have placed all of their cap space into THJ, KP, and Noah (at least for next season). There's no real second star in the making on this team. There's no cap space. No competent NBA point guard. I want to see the Knicks win and I'd be happy if this team won 40 something games, but it's clear we aren't that team. With a healthy THJ, we are something like a 37 win team. And we don't have any clear upside moving forward, unless you really want to bank on Frank becoming a star, which I don't see.

The Knicks are myring themselves in mediocrity, and I think it's a scary proposition. Good drafting is good drafting, you are right. But there are FAR MORE GREAT PLAYERS drafted at the top of the draft than the bottom. You've named the rare standouts and have forgotten the hundreds drafted 20-60 that never even made the league. Meanwhile the majority of great players come in the top 3. You have a higher change of drafting a game-changing talent in the top 3-5 range. It gets exponential as you get to #1-2-3. Some years are outliers, like when we got KP instead of Russell or Okafor. But most years, it rings true.

Would you rather have the #1 pick or the #60 pick?

I'm not saying this team should deliberately tank. I don't want us to sit healthy players or give up on the court. A high draft pick should be the natural result of steering your team in the proper direction and giving playing time to the young players that matter most. If you'e asking whether I'd want to have Jarret Jack, Lee, Tim Hardaway, and Enes Kanter and win 38 games or have Frank/no name/Lance/KP/KOQ and win 25 games....I would take the latter in a heartbeat.

sure there's no guarantee that we get a star in the draft, but having less money on the books, a higher draft pick, and any assets we can accrue by trading Lee would be better for the long-term future of this franchise. There's no guarantee that the player turns into a star, but at least it gives us a good chance of getting what we need. The way we are going does not accomplish that.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#613 » by Juco24 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:01 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Juco24 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
crazy that baker is young and fits the timeline?


But their goal is to make the playoffs AND they're playing Jack way more minutes than Frank! And they're not developing Willie... if that be the case - Holiday should've been your signee! Immediately, the best SF you'd have on your roster. Then you wouldn't have to play LFT. Lee could sub out THJ.

It would be one thing if the current regime was trying to develop the young, but Frank, Dotson, Baker, Willie don't get much burn as the Knicks staff are hellbent on making the playoffs. And again, if that's your goal: You sign Holiday and not Baker!


dotson and billy are the only young players not in the rotation. dotson has gotten opportunities to play and looked pretty bad. later in the season is the time for players like tim to get run, after you've fallen out of contention. that hasn't happened yet.

billy is in a center logjam that we expect to be resolved by all-star break. and even if it isn't, there's nothing keeping him out of the rotation for the next 2 years of his deal. worst-case scenario (for him) he slides into the backup role next season. best-case scenario (for him), both kanter and KO get traded for picks and expirings so he can start.

baker is in the rotation in his backup combo guard role and defensive units/assignments.

mcdermott is in the rotation.

frank is playing plenty. i agree that he should be starting and could be playing more, but i don't have a problem with his place right now.

lance is only in the rotation because tim hardaway is out. hornacek said as much just today.

lee is a starter on this team. nothing wrong with ONE veteran starter.

beasley is the only viable backup to KP. and hornacek said his minutes are at risk too when tim returns.

sessions is not in the rotation.

noah is not in the rotation.

doesn't really make sense to bring in justin holiday for a non-minimum deal when he isn't part of the future plan. perry inherited lee, lance, and noah. lee is a win-win because you could trade him for assets, or he can stay and continue to add value.


With all that being said... and we can argue this back n forth forever but what doesn't make sense is that we have a coach who is playing a veteran like Jack over Frank in crucial minutes. Let the kid learn! A coach who is playing LFT and Dotson is getting DNP. And if he is going to play those veterans then a guy like Holiday would've been A MUCH BETTER OPTION @ the same salary! Holiday is far & away better than Baker and could fill a need! Obviously, this is all hypothetical but Holiday probably starts @ SF for this team (then again, Horny is unguessable) but if they had signed Holiday - I could see Jack/THJ/Hold/KP/EK - Frank/Lee/McD/Beas/Oqun.

Now again, that's IF you're trying to get into the playoffs... which they said they are. Just don't see how Baker fits in better than Holiday... and it's not as though Holiday is this over the hill player. dude's only 28
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#614 » by AndriPerdhian93 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:05 pm

Adelheid wrote:
AndriPerdhian93 wrote:What knick need to do is making kp to focus in basketball more and make sure to stop that stupid chasing ig model he was currently doing,make him to get stronger and added some reasonable weight and make him to play as a proper bigman, that can shoot and has decent post game .


There is an existing stigma going around here (a post I saw like a year ago) that if KP bulks up, he will end up like Bargnani and Valanciunas...that he will be slow af and might screw up his shot.

The are add weight to much.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#615 » by thebuzzardman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:24 pm

iCallBankshot wrote:Has anyone ever thought WINNING might be good for player development plus creating a WINNING culture? People are taking this tanking strategy to an obscene level. I understand the wonders of a top-5 pick but remember Andrea Bargnani went #1, Darko went #2, Anthony Bennett, and countless other busts. Meanwhile Kyle Kuzma, Draymond Green, Manu Ginobili and even Kawhi plus countless others went late round and second round. Good drafting is good drafting. I'm not with the let's lose on purpose strategy. Let's win and draft smart.


You have to have good scouts but tanking helps.

With a good scouting staff, would you rather pick #3 or #15?
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#616 » by seren » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:20 pm

iCallBankshot wrote:Has anyone ever thought WINNING might be good for player development plus creating a WINNING culture? People are taking this tanking strategy to an obscene level. I understand the wonders of a top-5 pick but remember Andrea Bargnani went #1, Darko went #2, Anthony Bennett, and countless other busts. Meanwhile Kyle Kuzma, Draymond Green, Manu Ginobili and even Kawhi plus countless others went late round and second round. Good drafting is good drafting. I'm not with the let's lose on purpose strategy. Let's win and draft smart.


I think winning would actually be great for player development. That is why I don't get Hornacek is so against winning with our youth. Instead, he seems set on tanking with veterans. No other way to explain Jack the tank commander still starting.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#617 » by Knicksfan20 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:23 pm

iCallBankshot wrote:Has anyone ever thought WINNING might be good for player development plus creating a WINNING culture? People are taking this tanking strategy to an obscene level. I understand the wonders of a top-5 pick but remember Andrea Bargnani went #1, Darko went #2, Anthony Bennett, and countless other busts. Meanwhile Kyle Kuzma, Draymond Green, Manu Ginobili and even Kawhi plus countless others went late round and second round. Good drafting is good drafting. I'm not with the let's lose on purpose strategy. Let's win and draft smart.


We can win next year.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#618 » by Deeeez Knicks » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:33 pm

Winning would be good, but the issue is we are not that good of a team and a good chance we will still miss the playoffs even if we try our hardest. We were winning early mostly because KP was putting up MVP type numbers, and it just wasn’t sustainable.

We should try to set ourselves up better for the future even if it means losing more this year. Focus on development, play the young guys more and if we can trade vets for picks/assets.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#619 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:39 pm

Juco24 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Juco24 wrote:
But their goal is to make the playoffs AND they're playing Jack way more minutes than Frank! And they're not developing Willie... if that be the case - Holiday should've been your signee! Immediately, the best SF you'd have on your roster. Then you wouldn't have to play LFT. Lee could sub out THJ.

It would be one thing if the current regime was trying to develop the young, but Frank, Dotson, Baker, Willie don't get much burn as the Knicks staff are hellbent on making the playoffs. And again, if that's your goal: You sign Holiday and not Baker!


dotson and billy are the only young players not in the rotation. dotson has gotten opportunities to play and looked pretty bad. later in the season is the time for players like tim to get run, after you've fallen out of contention. that hasn't happened yet.

billy is in a center logjam that we expect to be resolved by all-star break. and even if it isn't, there's nothing keeping him out of the rotation for the next 2 years of his deal. worst-case scenario (for him) he slides into the backup role next season. best-case scenario (for him), both kanter and KO get traded for picks and expirings so he can start.

baker is in the rotation in his backup combo guard role and defensive units/assignments.

mcdermott is in the rotation.

frank is playing plenty. i agree that he should be starting and could be playing more, but i don't have a problem with his place right now.

lance is only in the rotation because tim hardaway is out. hornacek said as much just today.

lee is a starter on this team. nothing wrong with ONE veteran starter.

beasley is the only viable backup to KP. and hornacek said his minutes are at risk too when tim returns.

sessions is not in the rotation.

noah is not in the rotation.

doesn't really make sense to bring in justin holiday for a non-minimum deal when he isn't part of the future plan. perry inherited lee, lance, and noah. lee is a win-win because you could trade him for assets, or he can stay and continue to add value.


With all that being said... and we can argue this back n forth forever but what doesn't make sense is that we have a coach who is playing a veteran like Jack over Frank in crucial minutes. Let the kid learn! A coach who is playing LFT and Dotson is getting DNP. And if he is going to play those veterans then a guy like Holiday would've been A MUCH BETTER OPTION @ the same salary! Holiday is far & away better than Baker and could fill a need! Obviously, this is all hypothetical but Holiday probably starts @ SF for this team (then again, Horny is unguessable) but if they had signed Holiday - I could see Jack/THJ/Hold/KP/EK - Frank/Lee/McD/Beas/Oqun.

Now again, that's IF you're trying to get into the playoffs... which they said they are. Just don't see how Baker fits in better than Holiday... and it's not as though Holiday is this over the hill player. dude's only 28


i get it. we don't disagree about frank at all. i think we might as well turn him loose. his and jack's roles should essentially be reversed.

i feel you on the lance vs. holiday thing, but it's not like we signed lance instead of holiday. lance was already here and not going anywhere. otherwise, sure. i'd rather have justin holiday than lance thomas.

baker vs. holiday in the rotation is also debatable. i don't think there's any argument against holiday being more productive as an SG today. maybe it was more of knowing what we have in holiday vs. seeing what we can get out of baker.

the goal is the playoffs NOW. that was not the goal in the offseason. expectations were low for this group and they have been exceeded to the point where we have moved the goalposts. i try to keep that in mind when i'm on the verge of frustration with wins and losses.
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Re: PG: Knicks bulls game thread 7:30 P.M 1/10 

Post#620 » by Jeff Van Gully » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:43 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Winning would be good, but the issue is we are not that good of a team and a good chance we will still miss the playoffs even if we try our hardest. We were winning early mostly because KP was putting up MVP type numbers, and it just wasn’t sustainable.

We should try to set ourselves up better for the future even if it means losing more this year. Focus on development, play the young guys more and if we can trade vets for picks/assets.


agreed. we don't try to lose on purpose, but we might as well be playing the kids as much as possible. pack up the vets or let them assistant coach from the bench like marcus camby, rasheed wallace, and kurt thomas.

i think i've seen enough of this group to know we most likely fall short of the playoffs as is. rather not throw the baby out with the bath water.

if the kids are good enough to push for the playoffs, i'm good with that. i'm also good with their truth being that dreaded 9th seed we all seem to fear. at least it'd be their doing.

i don't see any FA targets worth pursuing for the next couple of offseasons. i'm sure perry is pondering beneficial trades. in which case, we need to get the most out of our assets. so i'm also cool with some vets playing now if they're getting cashed out by the deadline.
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