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PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process

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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#461 » by Billy Goat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:24 pm

NYKAL wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
The organization needs a paradigm shift in their thinking.

Enough of the win as many games as possible in bad years at the cost of development and draft position.

Play the kids.

Accept the outcome.

Draft wisely.

Don’t screw up 18-19 like you did 17-18


I'm all for playing the young guys but if Frank can't at least give you a passable/NBA level play it's just going to hurt him and any other younger player(s). He's coming from a french league where he barely played as a total unknown. Starting a PG who isnt ready is like playing a young QB who isnt- it adversely impacts others and their own development.


IF .....IF that is the case, then we need to know it and move on from him. If nothing else it would tell the organization they need to look at guards (again) in the draft and try to get it right this time.


The Knicks need talent regardless of position
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#462 » by NYKAL » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:25 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
NYKAL wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
I'm all for playing the young guys but if Frank can't at least give you a passable/NBA level play it's just going to hurt him and any other younger player(s). He's coming from a french league where he barely played as a total unknown. Starting a PG who isnt ready is like playing a young QB who isnt- it adversely impacts others and their own development.


IF .....IF that is the case, then we need to know it and move on from him. If nothing else it would tell the organization they need to look at guards (again) in the draft and try to get it right this time.


The Knicks need talent regardless of position


can't argue with that, not at all
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#463 » by 2010 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:28 pm

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2010 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Well, it's what the coach said, but you're non stop with the "frank sucks" so whatever.

Do you like anyone on the team? You shouldn't. If the team collectively has one 23 games and probably wind up with 25, it means there isn't one good player on it.

KP, maybe. That's all I've got. Everyone else is straight up ass.


As if what our coach says is law. The coach has made it his business to talk out both sides of his mouth all year. His word is def not bond.

I like Dotson. I like Burke as a 3rd string PG for instant offense and change of pace. I still fux wit Hardaway no matter how unpopular that'll sound...he just in a bad tailspin but he'll be fine. Before his injury the whole forum jumped back on his nuts after his slow start saying how if you removed his 1st four games he was having an all-star consideration season. Then his injury happened. I like Beasley (if he stays cheap) as an instant offense F off the bench and spot starter.

But it don't matter who else I like/dislike. Frank is ass and is hardly showing any flashes that gives me hope he gonna get his schit together anytime this season, or maybe ever.


did the excuses police just give tim hardaway a pass?


Not a pass. A stress fracture is a legitimate injury. He may have rushed back. The first couple games back he played well but that may have been off the strength of pure adrenaline.

Timmy has shown what he can do so I'm not worried about him. He can get hot from 3 at a moments notice. He is athletic, he is an elite finisher in the open court, he has improved his rebounding and passing. His defense can be men and he is streaky but those are his two warts. I can rock with Tim as a 3rd option or 6th man scorer.

Frank out here looking like a burger. I am running with what was said last night. Frank Williams showed more promise his rookie year than Frank Ntilikina.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#464 » by Sark » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:41 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
NYKAL wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
I'm all for playing the young guys but if Frank can't at least give you a passable/NBA level play it's just going to hurt him and any other younger player(s). He's coming from a french league where he barely played as a total unknown. Starting a PG who isnt ready is like playing a young QB who isnt- it adversely impacts others and their own development.


IF .....IF that is the case, then we need to know it and move on from him. If nothing else it would tell the organization they need to look at guards (again) in the draft and try to get it right this time.


The Knicks need talent regardless of position



It's going to take longer than 1 season to know IF Frank can ever give passable NBA level play. If you don't have the patience to wait, I suggest you start rooting for the Warriors or something.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#465 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:11 pm

Hopefully this is a wakeup call to management if they didn't know already.

It is what it is. We will not be good for at least the next 2 seasons. Plan accordingingly and we have a chance to turn ourselves around in 2 years.

if we fight it or try to play that middle ground like we have been doing for 15+ years or whatever, we will just be treading water and not improve much.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#466 » by shtolky » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:13 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Hopefully this is a wakeup call to management if they didn't know already.

It is what it is. We will not be good for at least the next 2 seasons. Plan accordingingly and we have a chance to turn ourselves around in 2 years.

if we fight it or try to play that middle ground like we have been doing for 15+ years or whatever, we will just be treading water and not improve much.



Pretty much. Luckily, the planning really just involves not doing anything stupid. Don't add salary, don't trade Frank, don't play vets to try and win 35 games. The only proactive thing that needs to be done over the next 12 months is nailing the 2018 lotto pick. I'm assuming KP comes back just as strong as before since history shows us the ACL injury is very recoverable. 2019 free agency is massive as well. I know the front office hasn't been great, but hopefully Perry shows restraint and nails this pick coming up.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#467 » by dakomish23 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:20 pm

shtolky wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
shtolky wrote:


We are going to have a lot of cap space in 2019. The Sixers tanked but they also got lucky. They won the lottery in a year with a clear undisputed #1, and had Embiid not gotten hurt in college he would have gone #1. Lot of luck needed in the NBA.

Also, whether you want to admit it or not, players do like NY. We've gotten meetings with free agents when we have no business being in the same room as them. We just happen to suck big time but if we are decent and have money, they will be interested.


We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019 compared to the rising salaries.



Yes we do, we've been over this. We CAN have cap space for a max player (and a little left over) if we waive Lance (obvious since he's only guaranteed 1m in 2019), stretch Noah (another obvious, saving us 13m), and don't take on long term salaries (which we seem to be avoiding). Fact is, now that the cap has smoothed out from those ridiculous increases, cap space is once again a commodity and we will have a bunch of it. Fact. You want to argue whether anyone will come here, that's fair, but we have a good amount of space during an amazing FA class.


http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#468 » by shtolky » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:27 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
shtolky wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019 compared to the rising salaries.



Yes we do, we've been over this. We CAN have cap space for a max player (and a little left over) if we waive Lance (obvious since he's only guaranteed 1m in 2019), stretch Noah (another obvious, saving us 13m), and don't take on long term salaries (which we seem to be avoiding). Fact is, now that the cap has smoothed out from those ridiculous increases, cap space is once again a commodity and we will have a bunch of it. Fact. You want to argue whether anyone will come here, that's fair, but we have a good amount of space during an amazing FA class.


http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.



I'm assuming we waive Mudiay's hold. I liked the trade, but not overly optimistic he sticks long term. That gives us 31m in space and that assumes Lee is still here which is a very movable contract. It's not out of the realm of possibility that we can dump Lee's deal this summer or next trade deadline for salary relief. That means we could be one proactive move away from 43m in space. Every other move I mentioned is within our control.

31m-43m in cap space is a lot any way you slice it, even with escalating salaries. Especially in the post cap increase NBA.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#469 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:34 pm

Phish Tank wrote:I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.


say it again for the people in the back. :lol:

this desire for a good bad team is the most delusional one of all.

we trash. we gonna lose a schidt ton of basketball games, as expected. but let's do it with players that still look like all-stars.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#470 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm

shtolky wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Hopefully this is a wakeup call to management if they didn't know already.

It is what it is. We will not be good for at least the next 2 seasons. Plan accordingingly and we have a chance to turn ourselves around in 2 years.

if we fight it or try to play that middle ground like we have been doing for 15+ years or whatever, we will just be treading water and not improve much.



Pretty much. Luckily, the planning really just involves not doing anything stupid. Don't add salary, don't trade Frank, don't play vets to try and win 35 games. The only proactive thing that needs to be done over the next 12 months is nailing the 2018 lotto pick. I'm assuming KP comes back just as strong as before since history shows us the ACL injury is very recoverable. 2019 free agency is massive as well. I know the front office hasn't been great, but hopefully Perry shows restraint and nails this pick coming up.


Yeah, it shouldn't be too hard besides the draft, But we always find a way to make things more difficult so dont have too much faith right now
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#471 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:38 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
shtolky wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019 compared to the rising salaries.



Yes we do, we've been over this. We CAN have cap space for a max player (and a little left over) if we waive Lance (obvious since he's only guaranteed 1m in 2019), stretch Noah (another obvious, saving us 13m), and don't take on long term salaries (which we seem to be avoiding). Fact is, now that the cap has smoothed out from those ridiculous increases, cap space is once again a commodity and we will have a bunch of it. Fact. You want to argue whether anyone will come here, that's fair, but we have a good amount of space during an amazing FA class.


http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.


i think we should assume KP receives and accepts a max extension offer this offseason, no?
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#472 » by shtolky » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:38 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
shtolky wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Hopefully this is a wakeup call to management if they didn't know already.

It is what it is. We will not be good for at least the next 2 seasons. Plan accordingingly and we have a chance to turn ourselves around in 2 years.

if we fight it or try to play that middle ground like we have been doing for 15+ years or whatever, we will just be treading water and not improve much.



Pretty much. Luckily, the planning really just involves not doing anything stupid. Don't add salary, don't trade Frank, don't play vets to try and win 35 games. The only proactive thing that needs to be done over the next 12 months is nailing the 2018 lotto pick. I'm assuming KP comes back just as strong as before since history shows us the ACL injury is very recoverable. 2019 free agency is massive as well. I know the front office hasn't been great, but hopefully Perry shows restraint and nails this pick coming up.


Yeah, it shouldn't be too hard besides the draft, But we always find a way to make things more difficult so dont have too much faith right now



I'm gonna give Perry the benefit of the doubt. So far he hasn't done anything truly stupid to hinder the rebuild. 2018 pick is massive.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#473 » by dakomish23 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:45 pm

shtolky wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
shtolky wrote:

Yes we do, we've been over this. We CAN have cap space for a max player (and a little left over) if we waive Lance (obvious since he's only guaranteed 1m in 2019), stretch Noah (another obvious, saving us 13m), and don't take on long term salaries (which we seem to be avoiding). Fact is, now that the cap has smoothed out from those ridiculous increases, cap space is once again a commodity and we will have a bunch of it. Fact. You want to argue whether anyone will come here, that's fair, but we have a good amount of space during an amazing FA class.


http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.



I'm assuming we waive Mudiay's hold. I liked the trade, but not overly optimistic he sticks long term. That gives us 31m in space and that assumes Lee is still here which is a very movable contract. It's not out of the realm of possibility that we can dump Lee's deal this summer or next trade deadline for salary relief. That means we could be one proactive move away from 43m in space. Every other move I mentioned is within our control.

31m-43m in cap space is a lot any way you slice it, even with escalating salaries. Especially in the post cap increase NBA.


There’s a lot of things that they can do to have significant 2019 cap space.

As of right now, we don’t have it and you never know what happens that could make them wait till 2020 to spend.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#474 » by dakomish23 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:47 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
shtolky wrote:

Yes we do, we've been over this. We CAN have cap space for a max player (and a little left over) if we waive Lance (obvious since he's only guaranteed 1m in 2019), stretch Noah (another obvious, saving us 13m), and don't take on long term salaries (which we seem to be avoiding). Fact is, now that the cap has smoothed out from those ridiculous increases, cap space is once again a commodity and we will have a bunch of it. Fact. You want to argue whether anyone will come here, that's fair, but we have a good amount of space during an amazing FA class.


http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.


i think we should assume KP receives and accepts a max extension offer this offseason, no?


Then that number decreases even more I believe. Wiggins is making 25,250,000 a year after signing his max extension.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#475 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:48 pm

Jeff's rotations last night made no sense to me.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#476 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.


i think we should assume KP receives and accepts a max extension offer this offseason, no?


Then that number decreases even more I believe. Wiggins is making 25,250,000 a year after signing his max extension.


yep. it's 5-year approx $150m.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#477 » by Red Vines » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:52 pm

Tomorrow will be really interesting. Seems like everyone on the team is at a breaking point.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#478 » by dakomish23 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:56 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
i think we should assume KP receives and accepts a max extension offer this offseason, no?


Then that number decreases even more I believe. Wiggins is making 25,250,000 a year after signing his max extension.


yep. it's 5-year approx $150m.


So we’d have approximately 9 mil less.

We gotta shed some salary ASAP.
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#479 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:31 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/

Practical Max Cap Space $43,737,035

That’s if use the ETO on LFT & waive all our cap holds, including KP & Mudiay.

Both their cap holds have increased in the new CBA up to 300%.

Using the cap holds for Gordon (#4) & Randle (#7) this summer:

KP - $16,513,260
Mudiay $ $12,447,726

That’s without counting Frank’s 3rd year salary & this year’s lottery pick 2nd year salary (let’s assume 8th). That’s 4.86 & 4.19 we need to subtract from the cap space as well.

That leaves us with 5,726,049

Stretch Noah’s 19.295 and you add back 12,863,333

19 mil essentially.



We don’t have a lot of cap space in 2019.


i think we should assume KP receives and accepts a max extension offer this offseason, no?


Then that number decreases even more I believe. Wiggins is making 25,250,000 a year after signing his max extension.


I think KP's extension would start at 25% of the cap (about $27mil) or his cap hold would be about $17.1mil
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Re: PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process 

Post#480 » by Knicksfan1992 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:33 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:Jeff's rotations last night made no sense to me.


Join the club. WTF was that little Jarrett Jack cameo in the 4th? I was in the crowd losing it with my little bro at this clown attempting to coach a basketball game :nonono:
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