PG Thread: Tanks a Make Her Dance

[dakomish23]

Read on Twitter

[dakomish23]

Read on Twitter

[Tron Carter]

stolen from P&T

See, Hornacek's gameplan was to have Hardaway score 80+ points.

It was a solid gamelpan for a half a game, but unfortunately after halftime Scott Brooks instructed his team to hard trap Hardaway basically once Tim touches the ball. Understandably it took Hornacek about 3 timeouts to figure out that’s what the Wizards were doing, and Jeff decided to implement a couple contingency plans just in case the doubling made it hard for Hardaway to ever reach 80+ points in this game. One of them was to go to ISO Beas, because with the Wizards doubling Hardaway it’s probably better off to not have Hardaway involved in the play and just go to the ol’ reliable beas bonanza. Secondly, he decided to sub Lee out for Lance, because you need Lance’s size out there to be able to guard Ben Simmons effectively, obviously. And third, but most importantly, you need Jarrett Jack out there to do his best impression of what Jose Calderon did with the Knicks. Unfortunately none of these methods ended up helping the Knicks in any way, but when a team isn’t very talented there are only so many things a coach can do, and always opting to go with washed talentless old guys, instead of the talented young guys, is always a good strategy to counterattack the team’s sheer lack of talent.

[Tron Carter]

Pretty sure Jeff is not a fan of Frank's game but Mills/Perry have been prioritizing his development, making sure Burke isn't overshadowing him, lying about the Mudiay trade, trying him at different positions, good luck with that.

I told you Burke would be a DNP-CD bruh

[BossaNova13]

Pay kanter 5min under the table to opt out and gtfo.

Trade lee for space

Sign young players with potential ( hezonja, looney , mccaw, whoever is nice)

Draft best injured prospect(porter?)


Frank/Mudiay/Burke
Hardaway/Baker
Porter/LMFT
Porzingis*/whoever
OQuinn/Noah?

*injured

2018/2019 challenge bobcats for less wins ever and draft #1.

[louisorr]

Let's look a little deeper...we are winless without Ron.

[Da ThRONe]

Can someone explain why Jack had that many minutes and Burke was a DNP. Does Burke have an injury I don’t know about


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Burke shooting 54% FG and 41% 3PT but all I keep hearing about is how he a scrub who don't deserve mins.

And STFU, we know he doesn't have the length to play defense. But he should be fine as a change of pace bench scorer who can get hot at backup PG.

He certainly defends on par with Jack and is more of an offensive threat than him.

Yeah I actually really like Burke long term as a bench combo. I have shat on posters calling for him to start. I think his problem was teams wanted him to be a point. Let him play his game.

His game has been fine as the primary PG so far with the back ups. He has not been a chucker I don't think that is his nature. He's a playmaker that was his strong suit in college and was shaping up to be his strength his rookie season. It was the coaching change that seemed to type cast Trey as this bench scorer.

[Red Vines]

Mills/Perry grace period about up. After the break they need to be clear about their plan. Everyone confused.

[Iron Mantis]

Jarrett Jack - 26 minutes

Mudiay, Frank and Burke - a combined 30 minutes


That's epic.

Yeah. But Jarrett Jack - 26 minutes -1
Mudiay, Frank and Burke - a combined 30 minutes -12

Really. These young dudes you're hot about just aren't that good.

The difference is Jack played with Tim Hardaway for a vast majority of that first half explosion though. These young dudes are raw and need reps, the point isn't for them to win games. It's for them to gain as much experience as possible.

100% Truth. That Timmy explosion made anyone on the court with him look deceptively great.

Jack leading the charge to losses accomplishes absolutely nothing at all, short or long term. The kids can do the same, yet actually grow and develop with those minutes.

[dakomish23]

stolen from P&T

See, Hornacek's gameplan was to have Hardaway score 80+ points.

It was a solid gamelpan for a half a game, but unfortunately after halftime Scott Brooks instructed his team to hard trap Hardaway basically once Tim touches the ball. Understandably it took Hornacek about 3 timeouts to figure out that’s what the Wizards were doing, and Jeff decided to implement a couple contingency plans just in case the doubling made it hard for Hardaway to ever reach 80+ points in this game. One of them was to go to ISO Beas, because with the Wizards doubling Hardaway it’s probably better off to not have Hardaway involved in the play and just go to the ol’ reliable beas bonanza. Secondly, he decided to sub Lee out for Lance, because you need Lance’s size out there to be able to guard Ben Simmons effectively, obviously. And third, but most importantly, you need Jarrett Jack out there to do his best impression of what Jose Calderon did with the Knicks. Unfortunately none of these methods ended up helping the Knicks in any way, but when a team isn’t very talented there are only so many things a coach can do, and always opting to go with washed talentless old guys, instead of the talented young guys, is always a good strategy to counterattack the team’s sheer lack of talent.

And there are still people making excuses for the way we’re handling the situation

[robillionaire]

Yeah. But Jarrett Jack - 26 minutes -1
Mudiay, Frank and Burke - a combined 30 minutes -12

Really. These young dudes you're hot about just aren't that good.

The difference is Jack played with Tim Hardaway for a vast majority of that first half explosion though. These young dudes are raw and need reps, the point isn't for them to win games. It's for them to gain as much experience as possible.

100% Truth. That Timmy explosion made anyone on the court with him look deceptively great.

Jack leading the charge to losses accomplishes absolutely nothing at all, short or long term. The kids can do the same, yet actually grow and develop with those minutes.

Also why are we citing +/- at this point? WE ARE TANKING. At least we're supposed to be. Is Jeff still trying to win games? Is he playing Jack because he was a -1 and gives them a better chance to win and make the playoffs? We aren't supposed to be doing that, we need to develop young players and if we lose it's an added bonus.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Hahn & Wally: Jeff is covering for Frank left & right, should be in the GLeague, stop making excuses for him, he's played professionally, first need to see if he's athletic enough to be an NBA guard, so much he has to work on.

Did they really say this last night? That's not a great sign if Wally is getting in on the Frank bashing. He's usually the team cheerleader.

[dakomish23]

Hahn & Wally: Jeff is covering for Frank left & right, should be in the GLeague, stop making excuses for him, he's played professionally, first need to see if he's athletic enough to be an NBA guard, so much he has to work on.

Did they really say this last night? That's not a great sign if Wally is getting in on the Frank bashing. He's usually the team cheerleader.

He will also defend all things the organization does. So he might be putting the onus on Frank for him not playing.

What a garbage organization

[j4remi]

The Knicks have figured out a way to take all of the fun out of a rebuild and tank. Blessed by a torrid start from Tim Hardaway, Jeff Hornacek chased a win by focusing a huge allotment of minutes to players over 25 while the youth sat out and took notes (Mudiay being the exception). So it was on the backs of the vets that a 27 point lead turned into a 5 point loss. Knicks fans at this point seem to be ready for losses, but the reason to keep watching is to see how the young guys handle adversity and if they'll start to figure things out as they get opportunities to play through mistakes. That wasn't the case last night. So it was another loss, another blown lead and there's nobody to blame but the veteran players that Jeff can't seem to let go of. What good are lottery picks if your coach won't give them minutes even when you're tanking?

Tim Hardaway: It was a tale of two halves for Hardaway. He broke his slump in a big way in the first half, letting the game come to him early and then firing on all cylinders once he caught fire. But in the second half he was practically forced to press the issue, as no one else was effective offensively and the ball kept finding his hands. The Wizards made a determined effort to stop Hardaway and the rest of the team collapsed around that effort. 37 points, 5 boards and 2 steals are his stand out numbers especially with the 14/24 from the field that he shot. Tim's not really a focal point scorer with his streaky shooting and questionable decision-making but if you can get some guys out there with gravity; Tim can be a quality scorer. His value lies on adding those boards, getting some steals, pushing some fast breaks and playing some damned defense (it's regressed some since the stress fracture).

Kanter: Kanter continues to be a likeable guy that won't quit out there which makes him a force. 24 points, 14 boards and 5 assists for the big man who produced all night. His big issue continues to be defense. When Satoransky shot poorly early, he found his field goals inside over Kanter. The Wizards second half offense consisted of constant pick and roll attacks targeting Kanter as the big and Jack or THJ as the guard. It worked all half, including late when you expect guys to give max effort. Kanter's numbers are great and his impact is positive but it's going to be limited by his defense.

Beasley: Michael Beasley shot 8/24, obliterating his usual efficient play and replacing it with a vintage Welo type performance. 16 points, 11 boards and 3 assists from Beas looks solid but the performance was wrought with forced shots and bad defensive play. The brightside was his passing, he really whipped some nice passes to cutters along the way. But overall this was pretty bad from a guy who has typically been strong for us.

Lee: Lee has been regressing to the mean lately. 8 points, 3 assists, 3 boards and his defense was indistinguishable because he was typically rocking with 4 subpar defenders. Outside of a 4th quarter run that he had with a couple of field goals, Lee might was quiet.

Jack: Jarrett Jack played 28 minutes, went 1/5 from the field and had the privilege of getting assists any time he passed to his backcourt partner Tim Hardaway for a half. He was also the clear target for the Wizards offense, largely ineffective and his veteran savvy saw him force feeding Hardaway in the second half (which helped THJ be blocked 4 times in the third quarter alone). He was less maestro more my God this is ugly.

Mudiay: I'm convinced this kid has no clue how to draw a foul which is killing his efficiency at the rim in spite of his ability to get there often. He had 8 points on 3/9 field goals, 3 assists and 3 boards in 20 minutes but also managed 4 TO's. He played enthusiastic defense early but it faded fast and he was almost as bad as Jack by the fourth quarter. Passing wise, he does find people but the Wiz would force him to drive deep and they were recovering before his kickouts could lead to jumpers. So Mudiay just had a rough night, but I want him to keep driving and hopefully someone on the Knicks staff starts going over the film with him to point out...sell the contact, flail and scream if you've gotta but stop letting guys get away with bumping you low for no whistle.

Frank: It's never easy to show promise in just 11 minutes. Frank got pulled for having some trouble with screens but there were some real flashes of promise in what little time he got. In that span he managed 2 lay-ups, a pair of FTA's and a kickout assist...because he was driving. His first lay-up was a true standout play as he took Ian Mahinimi off the dribble and used his length to flip an lay-up in from outside the bigman's reach. Frank finally showed signs of breaking down a defense but managed to be the only Knick punished for his defensive play in a game where the entire roster got abused.

Lance: Lance had 8 points on 3 of 4 from the field in 19 minutes, 2 of which were three pointers. I can't complain about him but tbh, he's another guy whose presence was muted by the poor defense surrounding him.

KOQ: Kyle O'Quinn really didn't provide much interior presence on defense and since that's the place where he separates himself from Kanter in a positive way, he wasn't really needed. 14 minutes, 2 points and 2 boards where essentially nothing he did stood out as particularly good or bad.

Hornacek: Sometimes the rookies struggle and sometimes it's hard to tell if they're struggling or just not getting minutes. This has been the story of Hornacek all year. Willy's raw numbers looked awful, his per36 numbers actually ran similar to last season when he was an exciting and promising rookie. Frank was 2 for 2, slashing and scoring; providing what Knicks fans have been hoping to see from him but it wasn't enough to stay out there. Meanwhile Jarrett Jack was 1/5 in another loss but dominated the minutes. Listen, some people will say "well the rookies are bad" but what exactly makes Jack good? Not defense. His assist numbers SHOULD be better with the only offensive weapons on the roster all starting with him. He's not getting wins either. If the Knicks are going to be bad and tanking, which they will be; then the effort should be focused on the youth. Let the kids sink or swim and hang on to the ones who figure it out. The second half of this season is an opportunity that shouldn't be wasted on a veteran group that wasn't winning games BEFORE KP got hurt (worst record in the NBA since Christmas). My honest take is that Jeff's not the right coach for this team. No frills, no jokes, I just think the Knicks need a coach who is more consistent with his treatment of players; doesn't have a myriad of players questioning him (both seasons in NY and also his second in PHX); and who finds ways to get his rookie minutes like every other coach of a lottery pick has (not counting the injured ones).

[Deeeez Knicks]

Hahn & Wally: Jeff is covering for Frank left & right, should be in the GLeague, stop making excuses for him, he's played professionally, first need to see if he's athletic enough to be an NBA guard, so much he has to work on.

Did they really say this last night? That's not a great sign if Wally is getting in on the Frank bashing. He's usually the team cheerleader.

We pretty much are a G-league team at this point.

[dakomish23]

Kanter Jack Beas should ask for a buyout.

[Deeeez Knicks]

At least we are done until after the all-star break. Isn't that the magical time when they keep saying they will change things up? They probably talking about the 2020 all-star break though

[jvsimonetti0514]

Hahn & Wally: Jeff is covering for Frank left & right, should be in the GLeague, stop making excuses for him, he's played professionally, first need to see if he's athletic enough to be an NBA guard, so much he has to work on.

Did they really say this last night? That's not a great sign if Wally is getting in on the Frank bashing. He's usually the team cheerleader.

He will also defend all things the organization does. So he might be putting the onus on Frank for him not playing.

What a garbage organization

You're right this is coming from the top because other than not trading him at the deadline the entire organization seems to be covering for Frank. They've brought in 4 other point guards since drafting Frank and now there's talk of moving him to SG. It's either he's not ready, they don't think he's any good, or we're the Cleveland Browns of the NBA. The Knicks being the Cleveland Browns of the NBA could also be the reason he's here in the first place.

[mpharris36]

Spoiler:

The Knicks have figured out a way to take all of the fun out of a rebuild and tank. Blessed by a torrid start from Tim Hardaway, Jeff Hornacek chased a win by focusing a huge allotment of minutes to players over 25 while the youth sat out and took notes (Mudiay being the exception). So it was on the backs of the vets that a 27 point lead turned into a 5 point loss. Knicks fans at this point seem to be ready for losses, but the reason to keep watching is to see how the young guys handle adversity and if they'll start to figure things out as they get opportunities to play through mistakes. That wasn't the case last night. So it was another loss, another blown lead and there's nobody to blame but the veteran players that Jeff can't seem to let go of. What good are lottery picks if your coach won't give them minutes even when you're tanking?

Tim Hardaway: It was a tale of two halves for Hardaway. He broke his slump in a big way in the first half, letting the game come to him early and then firing on all cylinders once he caught fire. But in the second half he was practically forced to press the issue, as no one else was effective offensively and the ball kept finding his hands. The Wizards made a determined effort to stop Hardaway and the rest of the team collapsed around that effort. 37 points, 5 boards and 2 steals are his stand out numbers especially with the 14/24 from the field that he shot. Tim's not really a focal point scorer with his streaky shooting and questionable decision-making but if you can get some guys out there with gravity; Tim can be a quality scorer. His value lies on adding those boards, getting some steals, pushing some fast breaks and playing some damned defense (it's regressed some since the stress fracture).

Kanter: Kanter continues to be a likeable guy that won't quit out there which makes him a force. 24 points, 14 boards and 5 assists for the big man who produced all night. His big issue continues to be defense. When Satoransky shot poorly early, he found his field goals inside over Kanter. The Wizards second half offense consisted of constant pick and roll attacks targeting Kanter as the big and Jack or THJ as the guard. It worked all half, including late when you expect guys to give max effort. Kanter's numbers are great and his impact is positive but it's going to be limited by his defense.

Beasley: Michael Beasley shot 8/24, obliterating his usual efficient play and replacing it with a vintage Welo type performance. 16 points, 11 boards and 3 assists from Beas looks solid but the performance was wrought with forced shots and bad defensive play. The brightside was his passing, he really whipped some nice passes to cutters along the way. But overall this was pretty bad from a guy who has typically been strong for us.

Lee: Lee has been regressing to the mean lately. 8 points, 3 assists, 3 boards and his defense was indistinguishable because he was typically rocking with 4 subpar defenders. Outside of a 4th quarter run that he had with a couple of field goals, Lee might was quiet.

Jack: Jarrett Jack played 28 minutes, went 1/5 from the field and had the privilege of getting assists any time he passed to his backcourt partner Tim Hardaway for a half. He was also the clear target for the Wizards offense, largely ineffective and his veteran savvy saw him force feeding Hardaway in the second half (which helped THJ be blocked 4 times in the third quarter alone). He was less maestro more my God this is ugly.

Mudiay: I'm convinced this kid has no clue how to draw a foul which is killing his efficiency at the rim in spite of his ability to get there often. He had 8 points on 3/9 field goals, 3 assists and 3 boards in 20 minutes but also managed 4 TO's. He played enthusiastic defense early but it faded fast and he was almost as bad as Jack by the fourth quarter. Passing wise, he does find people but the Wiz would force him to drive deep and they were recovering before his kickouts could lead to jumpers. So Mudiay just had a rough night, but I want him to keep driving and hopefully someone on the Knicks staff starts going over the film with him to point out...sell the contact, flail and scream if you've gotta but stop letting guys get away with bumping you low for no whistle.

Frank: It's never easy to show promise in just 11 minutes. Frank got pulled for having some trouble with screens but there were some real flashes of promise in what little time he got. In that span he managed 2 lay-ups, a pair of FTA's and a kickout assist...because he was driving. His first lay-up was a true standout play as he took Ian Mahinimi off the dribble and used his length to flip an lay-up in from outside the bigman's reach. Frank finally showed signs of breaking down a defense but managed to be the only Knick punished for his defensive play in a game where the entire roster got abused.

Lance: Lance had 8 points on 3 of 4 from the field in 19 minutes, 2 of which were three pointers. I can't complain about him but tbh, he's another guy whose presence was muted by the poor defense surrounding him.

KOQ: Kyle O'Quinn really didn't provide much interior presence on defense and since that's the place where he separates himself from Kanter in a positive way, he wasn't really needed. 14 minutes, 2 points and 2 boards where essentially nothing he did stood out as particularly good or bad.

Hornacek: Sometimes the rookies struggle and sometimes it's hard to tell if they're struggling or just not getting minutes. This has been the story of Hornacek all year. Willy's raw numbers looked awful, his per36 numbers actually ran similar to last season when he was an exciting and promising rookie. Frank was 2 for 2, slashing and scoring; providing what Knicks fans have been hoping to see from him but it wasn't enough to stay out there. Meanwhile Jarrett Jack was 1/5 in another loss but dominated the minutes. Listen, some people will say "well the rookies are bad" but what exactly makes Jack good? Not defense. His assist numbers SHOULD be better with the only offensive weapons on the roster all starting with him. He's not getting wins either. If the Knicks are going to be bad and tanking, which they will be; then the effort should be focused on the youth. Let the kids sink or swim and hang on to the ones who figure it out. The second half of this season is an opportunity that shouldn't be wasted on a veteran group that wasn't winning games BEFORE KP got hurt (worst record in the NBA since Christmas). My honest take is that Jeff's not the right coach for this team. No frills, no jokes, I just think the Knicks need a coach who is more consistent with his treatment of players; doesn't have a myriad of players questioning him (both seasons in NY and also his second in PHX); and who finds ways to get his rookie minutes like every other coach of a lottery pick has (not counting the injured ones).

did you hear jeff after the game about franks minutes? The coaching staff felt jack had more history defending guys coming off screens and they wanted to go with his experience, frank really doesn't know how to defend that?

Are you f*cking kidding me Jeff!!!! then teach him!! Show him how to guard the off balls screens. How is he going to f*cking learn. Im just baffled how clueless he is and perry/mills are keeping up the charade...Jack who's been one of the worst defender in the entire league gives you a better chance?

The season is over, its about development and about the youth. How about call a timeout sit frank/mudiay/dotson whoever down and say this is how we are going to defend that off ball screen play. See how they execute. You just don't take them out because Jack has seen it before

How the f*ck is frank going to ever learn with that style of coaching? Hey take a seat because you haven't seen that play before....FOH jeff.

[F N 11]

I knew hornacek wasn't the coach when he brought back rumbus.

And bowed down to the triangle.