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The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition

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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#261 » by mpharris36 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:04 pm

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


but but.....
BAF Spurs:

C - Anthony Davis/Kevin Looney/Papagiannis
PF - Michael Porter Jr/Ryan Anderson/Kevin Hervey
SF - Jaylen Brown/Tomas Satoransky/Lance Thomas
SG - E'twaun Moore/Lonnie Walker/Wayne Seldon
PG - Kyle Lowry/Shabazz Napier/Tony Carr
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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#262 » by GONYK » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:07 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Great video HW. You’re still a believer right?


Absolutely. 100%. No doubt about it. Just have a little patience. Frank is going to be fine. It'll be worth the wait imo.


I’m still a believer. I see new things the kid does every game and am looking fwd to when he puts it together.

I’m all about the long game right the next few years


He's already the best defensive PnR guard in the league, but people are claiming that he has no real NBA skill
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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#263 » by dakomish23 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:12 pm

GONYK wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Absolutely. 100%. No doubt about it. Just have a little patience. Frank is going to be fine. It'll be worth the wait imo.


I’m still a believer. I see new things the kid does every game and am looking fwd to when he puts it together.

I’m all about the long game right the next few years


He's already the best defensive PnR guard in the league, but people are claiming that he has no real NBA skill


He’s also shown positive flashes at using the PnR to create for himself or others

I don’t get the hate.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#264 » by Dantares » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:26 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


but but.....


statistical noise like his plus/minus and on and off splits. vallen said he doesn't have an impact on the floor because he can't score, it's true.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#265 » by fatalogic » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:32 pm

Dantares wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


but but.....


statistical noise like his plus/minus and on and off splits. vallen said he doesn't have an impact on the floor because he can't score, it's true.

Being an elite defender is not statistical noise. Ask the Thunder what it's like to play without an elite defender. They are a totally different team without Roberson. Frank still has upside to improve his offensive game.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#266 » by Dantares » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 pm

fatalogic wrote:
Dantares wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


but but.....


statistical noise like his plus/minus and on and off splits. vallen said he doesn't have an impact on the floor because he can't score, it's true.

Being an elite defender is not statistical noise. Ask the Thunder what it's like to play without an elite defender. They are a totally different team without Roberson. Frank still has upside to improve his offensive game.


I know. i should have used green font.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#267 » by dakomish23 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:46 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21
Dkillanyk4lyf wrote:Melo is the reason why we are in the mess we are in now. Acquiring him was the biggest mistake in knicks history.


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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#268 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:11 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
I’m still a believer. I see new things the kid does every game and am looking fwd to when he puts it together.

I’m all about the long game right the next few years


He's already the best defensive PnR guard in the league, but people are claiming that he has no real NBA skill


He’s also shown positive flashes at using the PnR to create for himself or others

I don’t get the hate.


He's already picking up when to go hard to the hoop. He's still a little tentative pull up with his shot. The kid is so damn unselfish ... to a fault.
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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#269 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:33 pm

GONYK wrote:
levendis wrote:
Triple C wrote:
Read on Twitter


lol that's beyond nuts. He's 19... jesus.
And people want to trade him for a late Lottery pick


There are 19 yr olds in the late lottery. Just because a player is Young does not garauntee you he'll be what you believe his potential will be.

In fact you have no idea what his potential should be. So I can't say it's a crazy idea. Do you wake up and say "I must trade this guy"? Maybe not but paint yourself some scenarios.

I'm not an idealist. There's not a single move type that hasn't been done with success or total failure. So no, I don't believe there are rules or things you can't do or always must do in every position. So putting aside your probable rule to never trade 19yr olds let's talk actual names.

Tell me right now. If Young slipped to 9 and then someone told you they'd trade you pick 13 which happens to be Miles Bridges you wouldn't highly consider that for a PG struggling to disti guish himself from Mudiay and Burke, who also may not even end up at PG in two yrs?

Forget, "people wanna trade him for a late lotto pick" and actually think "who would I pick in the late lottery?" I'll let you perform the excersize and you don't even have to share it, but I'm just saying I can probably trust you to find a solid combination with two lottery picks, especially understanding the caveat that currently none of our pgs stand out.

You could make a solid case even if Frank was better than what he is now. So what? I have 3 Pgs and 0 SFs. I'd like to balance out my prospect pool
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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#270 » by GONYK » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:43 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
GONYK wrote:
levendis wrote:
lol that's beyond nuts. He's 19... jesus.
And people want to trade him for a late Lottery pick


There are 19 yr olds in the late lottery. Just because a player is Young does not garauntee you he'll be what you believe his potential will be.

In fact you have no idea what his potential should be. So I can't say it's a crazy idea. Do you wake up and say "I must trade this guy"? Maybe not but paint yourself some scenarios.

I'm not an idealist. There's not a single move type that hasn't been done with success or total failure. So no, I don't believe there are rules or things you can't do or always must do in every position. So putting aside your probable rule to never trade 19yr olds let's talk actual names.

Tell me right now. If Young slipped to 9 and then someone told you they'd trade you pick 13 which happens to be Miles Bridges you wouldn't highly consider that for a PG struggling to disti guish himself from Mudiay and Burke, who also may not even end up at PG in two yrs?

Forget, "people wanna trade him for a late lotto pick" and actually think "who would I pick in the late lottery?" I'll let you perform the excersize and you don't even have to share it, but I'm just saying I can probably trust you to find a solid combination with two lottery picks, especially understanding the caveat that currently none of our pgs stand out.

You could make a solid case even if Frank was better than what he is now. So what? I have 3 Pgs and 0 SFs. I'd like to balance out my prospect pool


Who is talking about potential? Frank is a top defensive PG in the league right now.

I'm not objecting to trading a 19 yr old as a hard and fast rule. I'm objecting to trading a 19 yr old who has already proven to be elite at something very important just for the chance at another 19 yr old.

In terms of actual players in this draft, I think the draft is pretty weak overall outside of the top 5, so I personally would have trouble crafting a scenario where two lotto picks is worth it, over just pairing another young guy with Frank.

In your scenario, if I liked Miles Bridges, I'd just draft him at 9 and call it a day. Pick up a solid PG in the high 2nd round.
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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#271 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:25 pm

GONYK wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
GONYK wrote:And people want to trade him for a late Lottery pick


There are 19 yr olds in the late lottery. Just because a player is Young does not garauntee you he'll be what you believe his potential will be.

In fact you have no idea what his potential should be. So I can't say it's a crazy idea. Do you wake up and say "I must trade this guy"? Maybe not but paint yourself some scenarios.

I'm not an idealist. There's not a single move type that hasn't been done with success or total failure. So no, I don't believe there are rules or things you can't do or always must do in every position. So putting aside your probable rule to never trade 19yr olds let's talk actual names.

Tell me right now. If Young slipped to 9 and then someone told you they'd trade you pick 13 which happens to be Miles Bridges you wouldn't highly consider that for a PG struggling to disti guish himself from Mudiay and Burke, who also may not even end up at PG in two yrs?

Forget, "people wanna trade him for a late lotto pick" and actually think "who would I pick in the late lottery?" I'll let you perform the excersize and you don't even have to share it, but I'm just saying I can probably trust you to find a solid combination with two lottery picks, especially understanding the caveat that currently none of our pgs stand out.

You could make a solid case even if Frank was better than what he is now. So what? I have 3 Pgs and 0 SFs. I'd like to balance out my prospect pool


Who is talking about potential? Frank is a top defensive PG in the league right now.

I'm not objecting to trading a 19 yr old as a hard and fast rule. I'm objecting to trading a 19 yr old who has already proven to be elite at something very important just for the chance at another 19 yr old.

In terms of actual players in this draft, I think the draft is pretty weak overall outside of the top 5, so I personally would have trouble crafting a scenario where two lotto picks is worth it, over just pairing another young guy with Frank.

In your scenario, if I liked Miles Bridges, I'd just draft him at 9 and call it a day. Pick up a solid PG in the high 2nd round.


Fair enough, you played along. Nobody is offering a late lottery pick for Frank so it's all fantasy anyway. I'd just hate to do nothing and in a year or two he's being developed at SG, which we're already starting to see, which essentially nullifies this defensive skill you are touting.

Now all of a sudden you've drafted a player with the cieling of Avery Bradley at pic 8
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Re: RE: Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#272 » by earthmansurfer » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:40 am

Nazrmohamed wrote:
GONYK wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
There are 19 yr olds in the late lottery. Just because a player is Young does not garauntee you he'll be what you believe his potential will be.

In fact you have no idea what his potential should be. So I can't say it's a crazy idea. Do you wake up and say "I must trade this guy"? Maybe not but paint yourself some scenarios.

I'm not an idealist. There's not a single move type that hasn't been done with success or total failure. So no, I don't believe there are rules or things you can't do or always must do in every position. So putting aside your probable rule to never trade 19yr olds let's talk actual names.

Tell me right now. If Young slipped to 9 and then someone told you they'd trade you pick 13 which happens to be Miles Bridges you wouldn't highly consider that for a PG struggling to disti guish himself from Mudiay and Burke, who also may not even end up at PG in two yrs?

Forget, "people wanna trade him for a late lotto pick" and actually think "who would I pick in the late lottery?" I'll let you perform the excersize and you don't even have to share it, but I'm just saying I can probably trust you to find a solid combination with two lottery picks, especially understanding the caveat that currently none of our pgs stand out.

You could make a solid case even if Frank was better than what he is now. So what? I have 3 Pgs and 0 SFs. I'd like to balance out my prospect pool


Who is talking about potential? Frank is a top defensive PG in the league right now.

I'm not objecting to trading a 19 yr old as a hard and fast rule. I'm objecting to trading a 19 yr old who has already proven to be elite at something very important just for the chance at another 19 yr old.

In terms of actual players in this draft, I think the draft is pretty weak overall outside of the top 5, so I personally would have trouble crafting a scenario where two lotto picks is worth it, over just pairing another young guy with Frank.

In your scenario, if I liked Miles Bridges, I'd just draft him at 9 and call it a day. Pick up a solid PG in the high 2nd round.


Fair enough, you played along. Nobody is offering a late lottery pick for Frank so it's all fantasy anyway. I'd just hate to do nothing and in a year or two he's being developed at SG, which we're already starting to see, which essentially nullifies this defensive skill you are touting.

Now all of a sudden you've drafted a player with the cieling of Avery Bradley at pic 8


Frank is not being developed as a shooting guard, it appears they are just taking some pressure off him as he develops his handle. And how is his great defense nullified if he plays SG? He can guards who they want him to, just depends on lineup.

Hopefully the 2nd youngest player in the NBA develops already.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#273 » by CharlesOakley » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:51 pm

You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#274 » by fatalogic » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:46 pm

CharlesOakley wrote:You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.


On the flip side the Knicks have actually done really well with top 5 picks in the past 25 years the only problem is they have only had 2.I think a lot of people are just tired of losing but also tired of not getting high draft picks. The organization has some strange love for picks 8 - 10 and they never seem to get those picks right. I'm hoping Frank is the one to change that trend though.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#275 » by GONYK » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:49 pm

CharlesOakley wrote:You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.


This is nuts to me. People have spent the last 8 years complaining about Felton, Calderon, and Rose being absolute shotgun wounds on the perimeter defensively, and now that we have a kid who is elite at it, it doesn't matter.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#276 » by Nazrmohamed » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:57 pm

GONYK wrote:
CharlesOakley wrote:You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.


This is nuts to me. People have spent the last 8 years complaining about Felton, Calderon, and Rose being absolute shotgun wounds on the perimeter defensively, and now that we have a kid who is elite at it, it doesn't matter.


Renaldo Balkman and Iman Shumpert were great defenders. You know what happened. I'd like for Frank to develop his offensive game so he doesn't meet the same fate. Thing about defense alone is that no one player can change a teams defense so eventually people start doubting the impact of your only skill

Jared Jeffries was actually a good defender
Balkman was actually a good defender
Shumpert was actually a good defender

They never improved elsewhere and by the time they were gone people started thinking thier defense was even overrated. Kid doesn't have to average 20. But damn, can I get on be single 20pt game to show me he's even capable of it? I think his season high is 13 pts. I've seen guys average 5 pts thier rookie yr but get a 20pt game a few times. Later on they averaged 15-20. It's rare that somebody averages 5 points by literally consistently scoring 5 points every game and then incrementally raises that average. Not to mention his assist totals are non existent too.

What concerns me is this isn't a playoff team where he gets no minutes. He gets a ton of minutes. He's gotta ramp up the aggressiveness.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#277 » by dakomish23 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:38 am

CharlesOakley wrote:You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.


I’ll take that 25% risk all day over living in the mid lottery. Look at all the #1’s in the past 20 years that have lived up to their draft status and even some HOF guys

Duncan
Brand
Yao
Lebron
D12
Rose
Griffin
Wall
Irving
Davis
KAT
Simmons

If you’re in the top 5 for a few years in a row, odds are you’re going to be in the mix to land an all star. Even SAC landed Boogie.

We better hope for a top pick this year. We are utterly devoid of high caliber talent. Not sure there’s a keeper on this roster other than KP & Frank.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#278 » by GONYK » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:14 am

Nazrmohamed wrote:
GONYK wrote:
CharlesOakley wrote:You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.


This is nuts to me. People have spent the last 8 years complaining about Felton, Calderon, and Rose being absolute shotgun wounds on the perimeter defensively, and now that we have a kid who is elite at it, it doesn't matter.


Renaldo Balkman and Iman Shumpert were great defenders. You know what happened. I'd like for Frank to develop his offensive game so he doesn't meet the same fate. Thing about defense alone is that no one player can change a teams defense so eventually people start doubting the impact of your only skill

Jared Jeffries was actually a good defender
Balkman was actually a good defender
Shumpert was actually a good defender

They never improved elsewhere and by the time they were gone people started thinking thier defense was even overrated. Kid doesn't have to average 20. But damn, can I get on be single 20pt game to show me he's even capable of it? I think his season high is 13 pts. I've seen guys average 5 pts thier rookie yr but get a 20pt game a few times. Later on they averaged 15-20. It's rare that somebody averages 5 points by literally consistently scoring 5 points every game and then incrementally raises that average. Not to mention his assist totals are non existent too.

What concerns me is this isn't a playoff team where he gets no minutes. He gets a ton of minutes. He's gotta ramp up the aggressiveness.


Jeffries was 21 when he entered the league
Shump was 21
Balkman was 22

Frank is doing this at 19, and he's showed plenty of flashes as a PG as well. He has been an impact player in a bunch of games for us this season.

I totally agree that he needs to ramp up his aggressiveness, but I think we have a few seasons before it's time to worry. Especially if he physically matures to where Shump was at 21. He's already more aggressive now that he was a month ago.

I agree it would be nice if Frank got 20, but I can name a few young guys who dropped 20+ in their rookie seasons, and now are out of the league entirely.
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#279 » by NY2TheBay » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:18 am

mpharris36 wrote:
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Re: The French Prince, Moody, and AI Jr.-Post Allstar Break Edition 

Post#280 » by iCallBankshot » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:16 am

Nazrmohamed wrote:
GONYK wrote:
CharlesOakley wrote:You guys pretend that the lottery is a sure thing. If you look just at 1st picks in the last 20 years we see, Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Bargnani, Greg Oden and Anthony Bennett. That is more than 25% busts with the first pick.

We also have too many posters that undervalue the defensive side of the game. Having a 19-year-old who is one of the best on-ball defenders in the game is huge. Defense still wins championships. Assuming that neither his offense nor his defense (?!?!) is going to improve in the next couple of seasons is shockingly stupid.


This is nuts to me. People have spent the last 8 years complaining about Felton, Calderon, and Rose being absolute shotgun wounds on the perimeter defensively, and now that we have a kid who is elite at it, it doesn't matter.


Renaldo Balkman and Iman Shumpert were great defenders. You know what happened. I'd like for Frank to develop his offensive game so he doesn't meet the same fate. Thing about defense alone is that no one player can change a teams defense so eventually people start doubting the impact of your only skill

Jared Jeffries was actually a good defender
Balkman was actually a good defender
Shumpert was actually a good defender

They never improved elsewhere and by the time they were gone people started thinking thier defense was even overrated. Kid doesn't have to average 20. But damn, can I get on be single 20pt game to show me he's even capable of it? I think his season high is 13 pts. I've seen guys average 5 pts thier rookie yr but get a 20pt game a few times. Later on they averaged 15-20. It's rare that somebody averages 5 points by literally consistently scoring 5 points every game and then incrementally raises that average. Not to mention his assist totals are non existent too.

What concerns me is this isn't a playoff team where he gets no minutes. He gets a ton of minutes. He's gotta ramp up the aggressiveness.


Most of us agree Frank needs to rank up the aggressiveness but, haven't we seen an improvement in him learning when to shoot vs. pass and pick his spots? That's why Frank honestly needs 35 minutes a game rest of season but ya know, Jeff is our coach. Still, I'm encouraged because I can name zero facets of Franks offensive fundamentals that look to be completely broken. I think the kid has a solid foundation, brings elite defense and is a physical freak who's only going to get stronger and taller.

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