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Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack

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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#101 » by prophet_of_rage » Thu Mar 8, 2018 4:18 pm

Iron Mantis wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
Iron Mantis wrote:The Tyson/boxing analogy is pretty bad.

These guys don't play the world's best at their position, alone, for 48 minutes every game they step into. Basketball is a team sport. They also play against a wide variety of talent form starters, bench players, scrubs, etc. for a variety of minutes.


You're asking them to play starters minutes. They do play the best point guards in the world for all the minutes they are given. You want a team sport analogy, cool, look at how quarterbacks are brought along in the nfl or mlb pitchers. You have to be exceptional to be given starting minutes. These guys are not exceptional. They need to develop in practice and minor leagues.

A prime Mike Tyson would equate to playing Westbrook EVERY night. That's simply not true. They play against all sorts of levels of talent from 29 other teams.


You've ignored the football and baseball examples. But even still. Do you think a novice boxer should be logging heavy ring time with any ranked heavyweight? Should they go out against a Klitscko, a Lewis, a Ruddock, a Foreman, whoever who is ranked or should they, as they do, work themselves up slowly into contention?

The league is lousy with great point guards with situation being the main separator between them. These guys have to face Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Lillard, Paul, Irving and then second tier but still great guys like Bledsoe, Oladipo, Payton, Jackson and it goes on. They are facing an uphill battle at the toughest position in the league.

The assumption being that you will learn what to do better from your mistakes. But the problem is it might be too late. How do you develop a pull up jumper in game time? How do you tighten your handle in game time? How do you make the right play calls in game time?

The way posters on this board want it is survival of the fittest. Throw em out and let them sink or swim. That's damaging to most players long term and isn't in any way development.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#102 » by RaZzMaTaZz » Thu Mar 8, 2018 4:20 pm

This is just further proof Hornacek is trying to save his job and trying to get wins. Its obvious the Knicks are not tanking unlike other teams below them in the standings(except the nets). They just simply don't have the talent.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#103 » by Iron Mantis » Thu Mar 8, 2018 4:37 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Iron Mantis wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
You're asking them to play starters minutes. They do play the best point guards in the world for all the minutes they are given. You want a team sport analogy, cool, look at how quarterbacks are brought along in the nfl or mlb pitchers. You have to be exceptional to be given starting minutes. These guys are not exceptional. They need to develop in practice and minor leagues.

A prime Mike Tyson would equate to playing Westbrook EVERY night. That's simply not true. They play against all sorts of levels of talent from 29 other teams.


You've ignored the football and baseball examples. But even still. Do you think a novice boxer should be logging heavy ring time with any ranked heavyweight? Should they go out against a Klitscko, a Lewis, a Ruddock, a Foreman, whoever who is ranked or should they, as they do, work themselves up slowly into contention?

The league is lousy with great point guards with situation being the main separator between them. These guys have to face Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Lillard, Paul, Irving and then second tier but still great guys like Bledsoe, Oladipo, Payton, Jackson and it goes on. They are facing an uphill battle at the toughest position in the league.

The assumption being that you will learn what to do better from your mistakes. But the problem is it might be too late. How do you develop a pull up jumper in game time? How do you tighten your handle in game time? How do you make the right play calls in game time?

The way posters on this board want it is survival of the fittest. Throw em out and let them sink or swim. That's damaging to most players long term and isn't in any way development.

Instead of making elaborate excuses, just start your #8 pick on a current lotto team.

Every other 1st round PG from the 2017 NBA draft not on an NBA contender is starting, sink or swim.

This is not rocket science.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#104 » by Ignitowsky » Thu Mar 8, 2018 4:53 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
Ignitowsky wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:Mudiay isnt an NBA player. Frank belongs in the D league and Burke's kind of a gunner. Jack at least brings a professional presence. I dont really blame him tbh.

I disagree with everything in your post, but I disagree with everything in your post, but even I disagree with everything in your post, but even if everything that you say is true, what do we gain by playing Jack at this point? this is the time of the year that we should be playing the young kids and evaluating what we have so we know how to move forward it in the future, especially in the upcoming draft. It would be a mistake of monumental proportions to start Jack at this point, but then again Jeff is made so many mistakes he'll probably make this one as well.


How many more games do you need to see from Mudiay to realize he's the worst starting PG in the league by a lot?

I'll take my chances with a 21 year old point guard that is athletic and physical and is only been with the team for a few weeks over a 34 year old guy that has zero possibility of being in our plans next season. I'm not going to rate Manny among the League's other point guards, I'm not saying that he's going to be a great point guard at some point in the future, I'm only saying that it makes zero sense not to give him the plane time and the opportunity to learn his teammates vs sticking in a guy just because.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#105 » by Rodimus921 » Thu Mar 8, 2018 4:59 pm

Jack just needs to ask for a buy out so he can join a playoff contender, so this problem can go away.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#106 » by Greenie » Thu Mar 8, 2018 5:02 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
JXL wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
How many more games do you need to see from Mudiay to realize he's the worst starting PG in the league by a lot?


Do you want a 34 year old PG playing meaningless games for the last month, or do you want to see a 21 year old PG that was acquired develop into a moderate player down the road? You can't have both. You just don't have the patience.


I dont want either, personally. Im just not going to get on the coach for wanting a guy who will at least give you a competitive effort, especially at PG. Jack is serviceable. Mudiay's been around long enough for us to know he can't play.

The Knicks roster is a gigantic dumpster fire. Pretty much everyone aside from Kanter and Porzingis has zero value league wide.

Kanter?
:lol:
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#107 » by Iron Mantis » Thu Mar 8, 2018 5:10 pm

Evidently only ancient veteran PGs can thrive in Jeff's freelance, broken, offensive "system".

It's not a system with any structure, plays, or principles, so it necessitates a 34yo veteran swiss-army knife PG or a flat out all-star PG.

Yet this team is rebuilding and needs to develop youth within a sound system. I think Jeff is gone in the offseason.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#108 » by Greenie » Thu Mar 8, 2018 5:10 pm

Ignitowsky wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
Ignitowsky wrote: I disagree with everything in your post, but I disagree with everything in your post, but even I disagree with everything in your post, but even if everything that you say is true, what do we gain by playing Jack at this point? this is the time of the year that we should be playing the young kids and evaluating what we have so we know how to move forward it in the future, especially in the upcoming draft. It would be a mistake of monumental proportions to start Jack at this point, but then again Jeff is made so many mistakes he'll probably make this one as well.


How many more games do you need to see from Mudiay to realize he's the worst starting PG in the league by a lot?

I'll take my chances with a 21 year old point guard that is athletic and physical and is only been with the team for a few weeks over a 34 year old guy that has zero possibility of being in our plans next season. I'm not going to rate Manny among the League's other point guards, I'm not saying that he's going to be a great point guard at some point in the future, I'm only saying that it makes zero sense not to give him the plane time and the opportunity to learn his teammates vs sticking in a guy just because.



I can see Jack being brought back.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#109 » by John Murdoch » Thu Mar 8, 2018 5:22 pm

This dude is the worst
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#110 » by Billy Goat » Thu Mar 8, 2018 7:01 pm

Greenie wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
JXL wrote:
Do you want a 34 year old PG playing meaningless games for the last month, or do you want to see a 21 year old PG that was acquired develop into a moderate player down the road? You can't have both. You just don't have the patience.


I dont want either, personally. Im just not going to get on the coach for wanting a guy who will at least give you a competitive effort, especially at PG. Jack is serviceable. Mudiay's been around long enough for us to know he can't play.

The Knicks roster is a gigantic dumpster fire. Pretty much everyone aside from Kanter and Porzingis has zero value league wide.

Kanter?
:lol:


? He's the only guy who'd start elsewhere. I guess Lee too but he's old.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#111 » by Ignitowsky » Thu Mar 8, 2018 8:00 pm

Greenie wrote:
Ignitowsky wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
How many more games do you need to see from Mudiay to realize he's the worst starting PG in the league by a lot?

I'll take my chances with a 21 year old point guard that is athletic and physical and is only been with the team for a few weeks over a 34 year old guy that has zero possibility of being in our plans next season. I'm not going to rate Manny among the League's other point guards, I'm not saying that he's going to be a great point guard at some point in the future, I'm only saying that it makes zero sense not to give him the plane time and the opportunity to learn his teammates vs sticking in a guy just because.



I can see Jack being brought back.


Maybe as next season's tank commander, or as a coach.
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I think he (Chamberlain) had similar athleticism, skill level and basketball IQ as Javale McGee,
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#112 » by Greenie » Thu Mar 8, 2018 8:44 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
I dont want either, personally. Im just not going to get on the coach for wanting a guy who will at least give you a competitive effort, especially at PG. Jack is serviceable. Mudiay's been around long enough for us to know he can't play.

The Knicks roster is a gigantic dumpster fire. Pretty much everyone aside from Kanter and Porzingis has zero value league wide.

Kanter?
:lol:


? He's the only guy who'd start elsewhere. I guess Lee too but he's old.

Kanter isn’t starting elsewhere.

His defense and lack of the ability to space the floor says so. He’s not athletic either. He’s OK4....not even because he lacks the offensive post move repertoire.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#113 » by Greenie » Thu Mar 8, 2018 8:47 pm

Ignitowsky wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Ignitowsky wrote:I'll take my chances with a 21 year old point guard that is athletic and physical and is only been with the team for a few weeks over a 34 year old guy that has zero possibility of being in our plans next season. I'm not going to rate Manny among the League's other point guards, I'm not saying that he's going to be a great point guard at some point in the future, I'm only saying that it makes zero sense not to give him the plane time and the opportunity to learn his teammates vs sticking in a guy just because.



I can see Jack being brought back.


Maybe as next season's tank commander, or as a coach.

Nah. As a player.

Muddy/Trey/Jack
Timmy/Frank/Baker
Lee(he’s coming back)/Williams


I don’t truly see big changes coming. Jack is a vets the front office is comfortable with. Perry likes his vets too.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#114 » by Ignitowsky » Thu Mar 8, 2018 9:18 pm

Greenie wrote:
Ignitowsky wrote:
Greenie wrote:

I can see Jack being brought back.


Maybe as next season's tank commander, or as a coach.

Nah. As a player.

Muddy/Trey/Jack
Timmy/Frank/Baker
Lee(he’s coming back)/Williams


I don’t truly see big changes coming. Jack is a vets the front office is comfortable with. Perry likes his vets too.

You make a good argument. Maybe you're right
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I think he (Chamberlain) had similar athleticism, skill level and basketball IQ as Javale McGee,
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#115 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Mar 8, 2018 9:57 pm

Greenie wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
Greenie wrote:Kanter?
:lol:


? He's the only guy who'd start elsewhere. I guess Lee too but he's old.

Kanter isn’t starting elsewhere.

His defense and lack of the ability to space the floor says so. He’s not athletic either. He’s OK4....not even because he lacks the offensive post move repertoire.


nah, man.

okafor doesn't rebound as well, is a worse defender, and gives far less effort in every facet of the game.

and you might be downplaying kanter's post game a ltitle too much here. dude one of the best post scorers in the league. top-notch footwork on the block from day one.

you're saying okafor tries a greater number of moves? not sure that's a positive.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#116 » by 2010 » Fri Mar 9, 2018 2:34 am

Jeff Hornacek wrote:The Knicks are rolling with their 25-and-under point guards — rookie Frank Ntilikina, 19, Emmanuel Mudiay, 22, and Trey Burke, 25 — for better or worse.

“There’s a difference between tanking and trying to look at the future,’’ Hornacek said after practice Thursday at Marquette’s facility. “And we made trades to bring these guys in. We brought Trey in from the G-League and Emmanuel from another team. That’s a totally separate thought process. We’re seeing if they can play for us.’’


No change is in store Friday against the Bucks when this 0-3 trip concludes.

Hornacek said Jack could help stabilize the offense, but if that’s the best chance to steal a win in Milwaukee, it isn’t happening, while Lee will miss a second straight game because of a family-related death.


“It’s the same,’’ Hornacek said of the lineup. “We’re trying to evaluate our three young point guards. Moving forward, we got to make decisions on those guys. We have to play them as many minutes as possible. Jarrett has done a great job for us this year. But we’re at the point of the season we need to take a look at those guys and give them bigger minutes. It’s hard to judge them on five minutes here and there.”


Silver opened a can of worms when he ordered the Bulls to play Lopez and Holiday, both ex-Knicks and far from stars. The Bulls will comply rather than look at their young players.

“We still want to try to win games,’’ Hornacek said. “We want to see if our young guys can help us win games. It’s part of the evaluation process. It’s not like, ‘Oh heck, if we put them out there we’re going to lose games.’  We still want to try to win and see if these guys can step up and help us win.

“I’m not sure Adam told them what lineup to play. He probably is telling them they got to play. You can put them out there for 10 minutes. It’s meaningless for us. Because that’s not what we’re doing.”

In a recent memo warning teams about tanking, Silver attempted to recognize rebuilding efforts. It is a fine line.

“If we ever received evidence that players or coaches were attempting to lose or otherwise taking steps to cause any game to result otherwise than on its competitive merits, that conduct would be met with the swiftest and harshest response possible from the league office,” Silver wrote.

Hornacek said Mills never discussed the memo with him. Silver felt the Bulls crossed the line, which is debatable. Bulls general manager Jim Paxson stated they’d sit Lopez, Holiday and Jerian Grant, largely journeymen, to look at younger players David Nwaba, Cameron Payne and Cristiano Felicio.


Also debatable to Hornacek is why Silver needed to wait to change the lottery. In 2019, the worst-five teams will have the same odds of landing the No. 1 pick.

“It’s gotten worse the last four, five, six, seven years,’’ Hornacek said of teams content to lose for the chance at a better lottery seed. “Maybe that’s why they made adjustments. I don’t know why they didn’t make adjustments to it and implement it this year. I don’t know why they waited a year. They have what they’re going to do. Just put it in now. Maybe teams are trying to get one last crack at it. Teams realize difference-makers in this league come from the top five picks.’’

The 76ers forced Silver to act — perhaps not wanting other franchises to adapt former Philadelphia general manager Sam Hinkie’s tactics. The Sixers became an NBA embarrassment for several years to build through high lottery picks. After records of 19-63, 18-64, 10-72 and 28-54, the Sixers have arrived this season — or at least are seven games over .500.

“Players, coaches, it’s tough to go through that,’’ Hornacek said. “It takes a while. You’re not going to always hit that draft pick. This year, you get Donovan Mitchell at 13. You can find players like that but [GMs] play the percentages.’’


https://nypost.com/2018/03/08/knicks-coach-to-nba-leave-us-alone-were-not-tanking/
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#117 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:19 am

2010 wrote:
Jeff Hornacek wrote:
It’s gotten worse the last four, five, six, seven years,’’ Hornacek said of teams content to lose for the chance at a better lottery seed. “Maybe that’s why they made adjustments. I don’t know why they didn’t make adjustments to it and implement it this year. I don’t know why they waited a year. They have what they’re going to do. Just put it in now. Maybe teams are trying to get one last crack at it. Teams realize difference-makers in this league come from the top five picks.’’


“Players, coaches, it’s tough to go through that,’’ Hornacek said. “It takes a while. You’re not going to always hit that draft pick. This year, you get Donovan Mitchell at 13. You can find players like that but [GMs] play the percentages.’’


https://nypost.com/2018/03/08/knicks-coach-to-nba-leave-us-alone-were-not-tanking/

Sounds like he ain't too happy with Frank
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#118 » by Fat Kat » Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:31 am

Greenie wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
JXL wrote:
Do you want a 34 year old PG playing meaningless games for the last month, or do you want to see a 21 year old PG that was acquired develop into a moderate player down the road? You can't have both. You just don't have the patience.


I dont want either, personally. Im just not going to get on the coach for wanting a guy who will at least give you a competitive effort, especially at PG. Jack is serviceable. Mudiay's been around long enough for us to know he can't play.

The Knicks roster is a gigantic dumpster fire. Pretty much everyone aside from Kanter and Porzingis has zero value league wide.

Kanter?
:lol:


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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack [UPDATE P. 6] 

Post#119 » by Clyde_Style » Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:36 am

Q: What do you get when you combine The New York Knicks with an unlimited bankroll, a legacy as an original NBA team with two championships, the lure of playing in MSG and the star power of New York City?

A: The New York Knicks
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Re: Jeff Hornacek considering turning the PG position back over to Jarrett Jack 

Post#120 » by Greenie » Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:46 am

Fat Kat wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
I dont want either, personally. Im just not going to get on the coach for wanting a guy who will at least give you a competitive effort, especially at PG. Jack is serviceable. Mudiay's been around long enough for us to know he can't play.

The Knicks roster is a gigantic dumpster fire. Pretty much everyone aside from Kanter and Porzingis has zero value league wide.

Kanter?
:lol:


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