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K P 6 wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

vallen wrote:

the NCAA is littered with 19 year olds who wont make it, and scarce in 19 year olds who do. I think he can improve too, but how much realistically ? im just hoping for a decent role player while other have their expectation so high it really ends up hijacking every single thread.

the only way you can know my frustrations is if you woke up and saw 10 threads about how great Lance Thomas is. the hype for a role player is beyond insane. obviously people can have an idea of what a player will and wont become or there would be no scouts or mock drafts. its not like were watching him blindly. every once in a while there are signs (flashes) he can be an NBA player. none of those signs say superstar.

Who even says he's going to be a superstar? Most of the discussions are how it's to early to throw him under the bus and that he'll be a good defender at guard (with disagreement about PG vs SG) and mostly people are pegging like Doc Rivers/George Hill like numbers. I mean, there are the odd and infrequent "He'll be Kawahi or JRue" posts, but mostly I see "patience, he'll be a good glue guy"

You know, mixed in with the sea of posts about how much he's complete trash.

At least we know he has a positive impact on a losing team. So he will be very important to a winning one.

Yeah, who knows. I posted a lot that I saw him as a slightly taller Derek Harper. Maybe that's too high. Maybe not. But my point was always "taller good defensive PG with good outside shot and not much flash in his game".
Still stand by that description of who he'll be - he'll never be that exciting a player on offense. Maybe he'll be Nate McMillan instead. I'd take that. I'd be lying if there weren't some Mardy Collins concerns though.

Perry has to take his best guess at what Frank will be this summer because if they think he's a bench role player and another team sees tons of potential they have to sell high. Next year if Frank hasn't made big progress forget it, everyone will know. If we do land a PG in the lottery you have to consider flipping Frank for another pick.

thebuzzardman wrote:

vallen wrote:

GONYK wrote:People talk about Frank like he can't improve. The player he is now is who he will always be.

the NCAA is littered with 19 year olds who wont make it, and scarce in 19 year olds who do. I think he can improve too, but how much realistically ? im just hoping for a decent role player while other have their expectation so high it really ends up hijacking every single thread.

the only way you can know my frustrations is if you woke up and saw 10 threads about how great Lance Thomas is. the hype for a role player is beyond insane. obviously people can have an idea of what a player will and wont become or there would be no scouts or mock drafts. its not like were watching him blindly. every once in a while there are signs (flashes) he can be an NBA player. none of those signs say superstar.

Who even says he's going to be a superstar? Most of the discussions are how it's to early to throw him under the bus and that he'll be a good defender at guard (with disagreement about PG vs SG) and mostly people are pegging like Doc Rivers/George Hill like numbers. I mean, there are the odd and infrequent "He'll be Kawahi or JRue" posts, but mostly I see "patience, he'll be a good glue guy"

You know, mixed in with the sea of posts about how much he's complete trash.

well then hes the most talked about "glue guy" in the history of realgm. not since LBJ 2010 has there been a more talked about player. and speak for yourself ive seen the Frank threads. i think they were expecting a little more then role player and glue guy. in fact every time i bring up role player i get debates to the contrary.

but of course expectations do change depending on what day it is, and what kind of game he had the night before. many are seemingly changing their tunes.

vallen wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

vallen wrote:

the NCAA is littered with 19 year olds who wont make it, and scarce in 19 year olds who do. I think he can improve too, but how much realistically ? im just hoping for a decent role player while other have their expectation so high it really ends up hijacking every single thread.

the only way you can know my frustrations is if you woke up and saw 10 threads about how great Lance Thomas is. the hype for a role player is beyond insane. obviously people can have an idea of what a player will and wont become or there would be no scouts or mock drafts. its not like were watching him blindly. every once in a while there are signs (flashes) he can be an NBA player. none of those signs say superstar.

Who even says he's going to be a superstar? Most of the discussions are how it's to early to throw him under the bus and that he'll be a good defender at guard (with disagreement about PG vs SG) and mostly people are pegging like Doc Rivers/George Hill like numbers. I mean, there are the odd and infrequent "He'll be Kawahi or JRue" posts, but mostly I see "patience, he'll be a good glue guy"

You know, mixed in with the sea of posts about how much he's complete trash.

well then hes the most talked about "glue guy" in the history of realgm. not since LBJ 2010 has there been a more talked about player. and speak for yourself ive seen the Frank threads. i think they were expecting a little more then role player and glue guy. in fact every time i bring up role player i get debates to the contrary.

but of course expectations do change depending on what day it is, and what kind of game he had the night before. many are seemingly changing their tunes.

He's the latest rookie. What else do you expect to happen on a forum? And pretty much every young player is going to get overhyped to some degree. Also over trashed to some degree.

Red Vines wrote:Perry has to take his best guess at what Frank will be this summer because if they think he's a bench role player and another team sees tons of potential they have to sell high. Next year if Frank hasn't made big progress forget it, everyone will know. If we do land a PG in the lottery you have to consider flipping Frank for another pick.

That's a ridiculous take. They don't have to make a decision on a 20 year old at all. He'll still be on his rookie deal. It's not like they don't have 3 years left or anything.

Only impatient fools would give up on a player so soon.

Ntilikina
Mudiay
Burke
Dotson
Baker
Williams
O'Quinn
Porzingis

The only one that we should keep for the next season... Trade THJ, Noah, Lee, Kanter and Lance... Only Jack and Beasley can stay if they will not demand beyond vets min

Burke / Mudiay / Baker / Jack
Ntilikina / Hezonja / Dotson
2018 1st / via trade / 2018 2nd
Via trade / Williams / Beasley
Porzingis / O'Quinn / via trade


G-League team:

Baker / Mayes
Dotson / Peak
Bonga / Beachem
Hayes / Hicks
Kornet / Boucher

thebuzzardman wrote:

K P 6 wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:
Who even says he's going to be a superstar? Most of the discussions are how it's to early to throw him under the bus and that he'll be a good defender at guard (with disagreement about PG vs SG) and mostly people are pegging like Doc Rivers/George Hill like numbers. I mean, there are the odd and infrequent "He'll be Kawahi or JRue" posts, but mostly I see "patience, he'll be a good glue guy"

You know, mixed in with the sea of posts about how much he's complete trash.

At least we know he has a positive impact on a losing team. So he will be very important to a winning one.

Yeah, who knows. I posted a lot that I saw him as a slightly taller Derek Harper. Maybe that's too high. Maybe not. But my point was always "taller good defensive PG with good outside shot and not much flash in his game".
Still stand by that description of who he'll be - he'll never be that exciting a player on offense. Maybe he'll be Nate McMillan instead. I'd take that. I'd be lying if there weren't some Mardy Collins concerns though.

Derek Harper was a good scorer in his Mavs days but I guess the old version of him we saw on the Knicks is a good comparison point.

MaseInYourFace wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

K P 6 wrote:At least we know he has a positive impact on a losing team. So he will be very important to a winning one.

Yeah, who knows. I posted a lot that I saw him as a slightly taller Derek Harper. Maybe that's too high. Maybe not. But my point was always "taller good defensive PG with good outside shot and not much flash in his game".
Still stand by that description of who he'll be - he'll never be that exciting a player on offense. Maybe he'll be Nate McMillan instead. I'd take that. I'd be lying if there weren't some Mardy Collins concerns though.

Derek Harper was a good scorer in his Mavs days but I guess the old version of him we saw on the Knicks is a good comparison point.

Even the Mavs version was low flash as a good scorer. I think that's the type of player Frank will be - not all that exciting, unless you like the defense. Note I said "type". I'm not sure where along the spectrum he'd fall. Doc Rivers was sort of like that, with less scoring, little bit less height. I remember him as more aggressive to the rim, so I'd be using his stats more than his style. Nate McMillan in terms of multi position, mostly a point player, strong contributor to good teams, not really a scorer, but again, Frank's style doesn't seem like that - to me. More like Harper - stylistically, with some of Nate's versatility on defense. I mean, even in the modern NBA, a 12/6 PG with excellent defense is a good player, a player I think people shouldn't mind in the first round. Maybe not at 8, but the talent does kind of even out after 5 in most drafts. And yes, they'll be better players after - but that's kind of random.

But players who aren't that good, after all, have gotten hyped up here. I could be doing some of that. I think I see certain things that are good traits, along with pretty obvious weaknesses. I also think that Frank was picked as a project who has some legit projectable abilities - based on the fact that he was on the top 10 of most team's boards and mock sites. Maybe he has an awesome agency instead. Who knows. Part of the problem with the NBA now as opposed to when it forced the 3, 4 - even 2 years in college - is that players were less "projects", on the whole - Euro/foreign and NA. And even back then some guys needed development time. But now it's players with 1 year of a foreign pro league or 1 year D1 NCAA. It's a given 75% of them will need 2 years. I don't buy the aggression argument either with Frank, but that's just opinion on my part. Let me get out of the way that he's annoyingly tentative and needs to fix that asap. I think it's tied to a mistake free mindset. I think combined with a guy who isn't going to try to be showy, and it makes him look even worse than he is, if that makes sense. There isn't any sizzle to latch onto. Still think starting season 3 he looks good. He'd be 21. In the past, that would be a guy coming out of college on the 2 and done.

mpharris36 wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:

mpharris36 wrote:
correct so if he was doing nothing wouldn't he be hurting the team?

Check the score.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

I did and I watched the game as well. Frank wasn't in when the bucks when on there big run run to go up 16...you want to guess who was?

So why wasn't he in to stop the run? He just wasn't doing much

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

prophet_of_rage wrote:

mpharris36 wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:Check the score.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

I did and I watched the game as well. Frank wasn't in when the bucks when on there big run run to go up 16...you want to guess who was?

So why wasn't he in to stop the run? He just wasn't doing much

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

that jeff or that...he also didn't play troy williams today after his best game of the year...jeff does jeff stuff...at least it helps the tank

prophet_of_rage wrote:

mpharris36 wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:Check the score.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

I did and I watched the game as well. Frank wasn't in when the bucks when on there big run run to go up 16...you want to guess who was?

So why wasn't he in to stop the run? He just wasn't doing much

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

Hornacek.

I think if players could sub themselves in, they would.

thebuzzardman wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:
Yeah, who knows. I posted a lot that I saw him as a slightly taller Derek Harper. Maybe that's too high. Maybe not. But my point was always "taller good defensive PG with good outside shot and not much flash in his game".
Still stand by that description of who he'll be - he'll never be that exciting a player on offense. Maybe he'll be Nate McMillan instead. I'd take that. I'd be lying if there weren't some Mardy Collins concerns though.

Derek Harper was a good scorer in his Mavs days but I guess the old version of him we saw on the Knicks is a good comparison point.

Even the Mavs version was low flash as a good scorer. I think that's the type of player Frank will be - not all that exciting, unless you like the defense. Note I said "type". I'm not sure where along the spectrum he'd fall. Doc Rivers was sort of like that, with less scoring, little bit less height. I remember him as more aggressive to the rim, so I'd be using his stats more than his style. Nate McMillan in terms of multi position, mostly a point player, strong contributor to good teams, not really a scorer, but again, Frank's style doesn't seem like that - to me. More like Harper - stylistically, with some of Nate's versatility on defense. I mean, even in the modern NBA, a 12/6 PG with excellent defense is a good player, a player I think people shouldn't mind in the first round. Maybe not at 8, but the talent does kind of even out after 5 in most drafts. And yes, they'll be better players after - but that's kind of random.

But players who aren't that good, after all, have gotten hyped up here. I could be doing some of that. I think I see certain things that are good traits, along with pretty obvious weaknesses. I also think that Frank was picked as a project who has some legit projectable abilities - based on the fact that he was on the top 10 of most team's boards and mock sites. Maybe he has an awesome agency instead. Who knows. Part of the problem with the NBA now as opposed to when it forced the 3, 4 - even 2 years in college - is that players were less "projects", on the whole - Euro/foreign and NA. And even back then some guys needed development time. But now it's players with 1 year of a foreign pro league or 1 year D1 NCAA. It's a given 75% of them will need 2 years. I don't buy the aggression argument either with Frank, but that's just opinion on my part. Let me get out of the way that he's annoyingly tentative and needs to fix that asap. I think it's tied to a mistake free mindset. I think combined with a guy who isn't going to try to be showy, and it makes him look even worse than he is, if that makes sense. There isn't any sizzle to latch onto. Still think starting season 3 he looks good. He'd be 21. In the past, that would be a guy coming out of college on the 2 and done.

I've been saying it. Frank was drafted because he plays like old Ron Harper.

prophet_of_rage wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:
Derek Harper was a good scorer in his Mavs days but I guess the old version of him we saw on the Knicks is a good comparison point.

Even the Mavs version was low flash as a good scorer. I think that's the type of player Frank will be - not all that exciting, unless you like the defense. Note I said "type". I'm not sure where along the spectrum he'd fall. Doc Rivers was sort of like that, with less scoring, little bit less height. I remember him as more aggressive to the rim, so I'd be using his stats more than his style. Nate McMillan in terms of multi position, mostly a point player, strong contributor to good teams, not really a scorer, but again, Frank's style doesn't seem like that - to me. More like Harper - stylistically, with some of Nate's versatility on defense. I mean, even in the modern NBA, a 12/6 PG with excellent defense is a good player, a player I think people shouldn't mind in the first round. Maybe not at 8, but the talent does kind of even out after 5 in most drafts. And yes, they'll be better players after - but that's kind of random.

But players who aren't that good, after all, have gotten hyped up here. I could be doing some of that. I think I see certain things that are good traits, along with pretty obvious weaknesses. I also think that Frank was picked as a project who has some legit projectable abilities - based on the fact that he was on the top 10 of most team's boards and mock sites. Maybe he has an awesome agency instead. Who knows. Part of the problem with the NBA now as opposed to when it forced the 3, 4 - even 2 years in college - is that players were less "projects", on the whole - Euro/foreign and NA. And even back then some guys needed development time. But now it's players with 1 year of a foreign pro league or 1 year D1 NCAA. It's a given 75% of them will need 2 years. I don't buy the aggression argument either with Frank, but that's just opinion on my part. Let me get out of the way that he's annoyingly tentative and needs to fix that asap. I think it's tied to a mistake free mindset. I think combined with a guy who isn't going to try to be showy, and it makes him look even worse than he is, if that makes sense. There isn't any sizzle to latch onto. Still think starting season 3 he looks good. He'd be 21. In the past, that would be a guy coming out of college on the 2 and done.

I've been saying it. Frank was drafted because he plays like old Ron Harper.

Hmm. I don't see that comp, but my memory of old Ron Harper is less clear, too busy paying attention to Jordan/Pippen. I think he plays like Derek Harper. I have a better memory of him than old Ron Harper. My memory of old Ron Harper was coming and playing defense really well for the first 8 minutes and last 8 minutes and riding the bench otherwise. And of course young Ron Harper I recall as Jordan-lite or Drexler-ish.

Kinglee wrote:I didn't see the game, but Frank really put up that stat line in 33 minutes and I have to pretend like he show potential to be good? Oh yea.,, The vets like Mudiay was holding him back

You didn't watch the game so you can't judge what Frank did or didn't do - Since most of Frank's best impact will be on individual and team defense, offensive chemistry, and hockey assists.

I'm tired of dudes hatin' with no knowledge of the game past what they see in the box score and in 2k.

iCallBankshot wrote:

Kinglee wrote:I didn't see the game, but Frank really put up that stat line in 33 minutes and I have to pretend like he show potential to be good? Oh yea.,, The vets like Mudiay was holding him back

You didn't watch the game so you can't judge what Frank did or didn't do - Since most of Frank's best impact will be on individual team defense, offensive chemistry, and hockey assists.

I'm tired of dudes hatin' with no knowledge of the game past what they see in the box score and in 2k.

Give Kinglee a break. He needs a player the Knicks drafted to hate with KP out for a year.

thebuzzardman wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:
Even the Mavs version was low flash as a good scorer. I think that's the type of player Frank will be - not all that exciting, unless you like the defense. Note I said "type". I'm not sure where along the spectrum he'd fall. Doc Rivers was sort of like that, with less scoring, little bit less height. I remember him as more aggressive to the rim, so I'd be using his stats more than his style. Nate McMillan in terms of multi position, mostly a point player, strong contributor to good teams, not really a scorer, but again, Frank's style doesn't seem like that - to me. More like Harper - stylistically, with some of Nate's versatility on defense. I mean, even in the modern NBA, a 12/6 PG with excellent defense is a good player, a player I think people shouldn't mind in the first round. Maybe not at 8, but the talent does kind of even out after 5 in most drafts. And yes, they'll be better players after - but that's kind of random.

But players who aren't that good, after all, have gotten hyped up here. I could be doing some of that. I think I see certain things that are good traits, along with pretty obvious weaknesses. I also think that Frank was picked as a project who has some legit projectable abilities - based on the fact that he was on the top 10 of most team's boards and mock sites. Maybe he has an awesome agency instead. Who knows. Part of the problem with the NBA now as opposed to when it forced the 3, 4 - even 2 years in college - is that players were less "projects", on the whole - Euro/foreign and NA. And even back then some guys needed development time. But now it's players with 1 year of a foreign pro league or 1 year D1 NCAA. It's a given 75% of them will need 2 years. I don't buy the aggression argument either with Frank, but that's just opinion on my part. Let me get out of the way that he's annoyingly tentative and needs to fix that asap. I think it's tied to a mistake free mindset. I think combined with a guy who isn't going to try to be showy, and it makes him look even worse than he is, if that makes sense. There isn't any sizzle to latch onto. Still think starting season 3 he looks good. He'd be 21. In the past, that would be a guy coming out of college on the 2 and done.

I've been saying it. Frank was drafted because he plays like old Ron Harper.

Hmm. I don't see that comp, but my memory of old Ron Harper is less clear, too busy paying attention to Jordan/Pippen. I think he plays like Derek Harper. I have a better memory of him than old Ron Harper. My memory of old Ron Harper was coming and playing defense really well for the first 8 minutes and last 8 minutes and riding the bench otherwise. And of course young Ron Harper I recall as Jordan-lite or Drexler-ish.

Derek Harper was a scorer originally. Knicks Harper handchecked in the first and last quarter and didn't let you score. He is a more physical defender than Frank and he did not shoot corner shots or catch and shoot. Old Ron did. Young Ron was a Drexlerish scorer. He was very very good right away.

prophet_of_rage wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:
I've been saying it. Frank was drafted because he plays like old Ron Harper.

Hmm. I don't see that comp, but my memory of old Ron Harper is less clear, too busy paying attention to Jordan/Pippen. I think he plays like Derek Harper. I have a better memory of him than old Ron Harper. My memory of old Ron Harper was coming and playing defense really well for the first 8 minutes and last 8 minutes and riding the bench otherwise. And of course young Ron Harper I recall as Jordan-lite or Drexler-ish.

Derek Harper was a scorer originally. Knicks Harper handchecked in the first and last quarter and didn't let you score. He is a more physical defender than Frank and he did not shoot corner shots or catch and shoot. Old Ron did. Young Ron was a Drexlerish scorer. He was very very good right away.

Yeah, I'd never think Frank is young Ron Harper. My comp for Frank as Derek Harper is a taller low flash PG with an outside shot, not the greatest drive game, outside shooter who's shot sets up his drive (his drive was better than Franks from the jump). IF Frank improves driving the ball, I see him in that general mold of Derek Harper. Not a 1:1 comparison. Which I'm pretty sure I've said a number of times so I kind of short handed it here. Similar. Not the same.

And no one is allowed to handcheck anymore, so I can't even go there as a comp.

Red Vines wrote:Perry has to take his best guess at what Frank will be this summer because if they think he's a bench role player and another team sees tons of potential they have to sell high. Next year if Frank hasn't made big progress forget it, everyone will know. If we do land a PG in the lottery you have to consider flipping Frank for another pick.

what is this "selling high" you speak of ? nobody is giving up anything for valuable for him. his value has tanked. you can't get a lottery pick for him and you might be lucky to get a pick at the end of the 1st round even. so you might as well keep him and hope for the best.

thebuzzardman wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:
Hmm. I don't see that comp, but my memory of old Ron Harper is less clear, too busy paying attention to Jordan/Pippen. I think he plays like Derek Harper. I have a better memory of him than old Ron Harper. My memory of old Ron Harper was coming and playing defense really well for the first 8 minutes and last 8 minutes and riding the bench otherwise. And of course young Ron Harper I recall as Jordan-lite or Drexler-ish.

Derek Harper was a scorer originally. Knicks Harper handchecked in the first and last quarter and didn't let you score. He is a more physical defender than Frank and he did not shoot corner shots or catch and shoot. Old Ron did. Young Ron was a Drexlerish scorer. He was very very good right away.

Yeah, I'd never think Frank is young Ron Harper. My comp for Frank as Derek Harper is a taller low flash PG with an outside shot, not the greatest drive game, outside shooter who's shot sets up his drive (his drive was better than Franks from the jump). IF Frank improves driving the ball, I see him in that general mold of Derek Harper. Not a 1:1 comparison. Which I'm pretty sure I've said a number of times so I kind of short handed it here. Similar. Not the same.

And no one is allowed to handcheck anymore, so I can't even go there as a comp.

Old Derek Harper had a much better handle than Frank and could finish and did finish at the rim with a change of pace and crossover. Frank should develop into the mould of Derek Harper rather than Ron Harper. He doesn't have Ron Harper's young athleticism or scoring knack and old Derek Harper was more effective than old, one-legged Ron.

prophet_of_rage wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Derek Harper was a scorer originally. Knicks Harper handchecked in the first and last quarter and didn't let you score. He is a more physical defender than Frank and he did not shoot corner shots or catch and shoot. Old Ron did. Young Ron was a Drexlerish scorer. He was very very good right away.

Yeah, I'd never think Frank is young Ron Harper. My comp for Frank as Derek Harper is a taller low flash PG with an outside shot, not the greatest drive game, outside shooter who's shot sets up his drive (his drive was better than Franks from the jump). IF Frank improves driving the ball, I see him in that general mold of Derek Harper. Not a 1:1 comparison. Which I'm pretty sure I've said a number of times so I kind of short handed it here. Similar. Not the same.

And no one is allowed to handcheck anymore, so I can't even go there as a comp.

Old Derek Harper had a much better handle than Frank and could finish and did finish at the rim with a change of pace and crossover. Frank should develop into the mould of Derek Harper rather than Ron Harper. He doesn't have Ron Harper's young athleticism or scoring knack and old Derek Harper was more effective than old, one-legged Ron.

Correct on all accounts. I've never thought of Frank in any way similar to young Ron. And young, old, middle Derek has the better handle, but I've said, that's what I see as his upside and also his type, in a low excitement (offensively) effective, tall defensive SG - some version of Derek Harper.