Knicks | Hornets PG: "Waffle Iversonnnnnn!!! ...When I started ballin' I was youuuunggg!!!

[mpharris36]

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GIVE HIM THE MAXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!

[Clyde_Style]

i think when a guy is really a great defender, you don't need to convince anyone of it. it's obvious to everyone. when you watch the guys who are known for that, nobody denies it. because they can't. he might be excelling in some areas according to stats (a stat that has westbrook and curry in the top 10 so...) but i wouldn't say he's reached that point. nor should he in first year probably. you have people going hard at him because his first year has been somewhat disappointing. and you have people who are trying to find the positives in the hope that we made a good pick after all. it's too early to really know either way.

You don't see it? Have you seen him play live? He's everywhere on defense.

I'll grant that he's not a lockdown ball hawk like Shumpert was his first year. He's a guy that sees angles and lanes and can disrupt sets with his IQ and length. Great footwork and fast recovery on switches. The kind of stuff that made Battier and Duncan great defenders.

that's what i don't see. there is a level of intensity that the great defenders play with that is missing. they frustrate opponents. he's long and smart and he's using that. but i don't see him really get after it.

He does get intense on defense though. The naysayers have a legit basis for saying he can sometimes be too passive as a ball handler or shot maker, but it is not an issue on defense. And he is picking up his aggression on offense notably lately so even that side is showing the first signs of a higher level of intensity too.

[Fury]

Like what?

I know, right? We literally just listed them.

[ibraheim718]

Payton and Paul would've affected our win-loss record too. Not all numbers are the same.

[j4remi]

He does get intense on defense though. The naysayers have a legit basis for saying he can sometimes be too passive as a ball handler or shot maker, but it is not an issue on defense. And he is picking up his aggression on offense notably lately so even that side is showing the first signs of a higher level of intensity too.

I think maybe he means that Frank isn't as physical as most great defenders. He's all over his man but gives a bit more space (maybe for recovery?), was leading the league in deflections for a while and can switch and bother almost anyone with his length (Otto Porter couldn't shoot over him all night and had to rely on attacking him with power moves to middling results at best). But I wouldn't say he lacks intensity, just the physicality that you typically see.

[GONYK]

Honestly not trying to make any type of comparison or take anything away from anyone, but I just find it funny that in a thread where Burke is being called Iverson and the PG of the future, people need to see more to simply acknowledge Frank as an impact defender

[Clyde_Style]

He does get intense on defense though. The naysayers have a legit basis for saying he can sometimes be too passive as a ball handler or shot maker, but it is not an issue on defense. And he is picking up his aggression on offense notably lately so even that side is showing the first signs of a higher level of intensity too.

I think maybe he means that Frank isn't as physical as most great defenders. He's all over his man but gives a bit more space (maybe for recovery?), was leading the league in deflections for a while and can switch and bother almost anyone with his length (Otto Porter couldn't shoot over him all night and had to rely on attacking him with power moves to middling results at best). But I wouldn't say he lacks intensity, just the physicality that you typically see.

The dude is a spider monkey. He has an extra hand's length on his arms and no one else has that length proportionate to their frame size.

I've seen him reach around the girth of big seven footers and poke the ball out of their hands without needing to body them up to get that proximity.

How Frank plays defense is not going to look like anyone else.

But just having those physical attributes is only half the story. He has an actual defensive mindset and knows where the ball is going much of the time. He has both the physical gifts and the mental ability to defend at a high level.

[Greenie]

Good look Greenie, pointing out things he does well. Frank rotates and switches better than any Knick. A low bar to be sure, but when Frank is out there, at the very least he looks like a real defender. Knicks don't double much, hard to tell. Trap? Not much either, but i've seen Frank trap guys along the sideline and baseline. Hard to say on that.

Not what I asked but OK.
I asked for ranks.

Knicks are 20th in team defense. AKA they suck on defense. Meaning that it’s not hard to look like the best defender on this team.

People love stats to say Frank is an ELITE defender, so what are his ranks across the league on this trash defensive team?

The Timberwolves have spent this season between 19th-23rd in team defense before Butler went down. Is Butler not an elite defender?

I get what you're saying, but right this very second, he's an elite PnR on-ball defender.

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How can someone be the best in the league at something and not be elite?

Why is he the best? Because that stat isolates P&R defense?

Run me the top 25 on that list.

What about transition, perimeter and interior? How about rotations and switches? Doubles and traps?

That's moving the goal posts.

You said he's not elite at anything. I show you he's the best guard in the league at guarding the PnR, and you want stats for intangible things like rotations.

That stat is his rank across the league.

Here are the 24 guards he's ranked ahead of as of this morning:

I don’t really care what you’re posting. Frank is not an elite defensive player at this point. He’s not elite at anything at this point. Offense or defense.

[thebuzzardman]

Frank and Burke both suck

[Clyde_Style]

Frank and Burke and I all suck

FFY

[thebuzzardman]

Not what I asked but OK.
I asked for ranks.

Knicks are 20th in team defense. AKA they suck on defense. Meaning that it’s not hard to look like the best defender on this team.

People love stats to say Frank is an ELITE defender, so what are his ranks across the league on this trash defensive team?

The Timberwolves have spent this season between 19th-23rd in team defense before Butler went down. Is Butler not an elite defender?

Why is he the best? Because that stat isolates P&R defense?

Run me the top 25 on that list.

What about transition, perimeter and interior? How about rotations and switches? Doubles and traps?

That's moving the goal posts.

You said he's not elite at anything. I show you he's the best guard in the league at guarding the PnR, and you want stats for intangible things like rotations.

That stat is his rank across the league.

Here are the 24 guards he's ranked ahead of as of this morning:

I don’t really care what you’re posting. Frank is not an elite defensive player at this point. He’s not elite at anything at this point. Offense or defense.

Elite is just wrong to use. Also, I don't think there have been but a handful of NBA players in the HISTORY of the NBA to be called elite on defense as rookies. The term just doesn't get used for them. And most rookies have to adjust to the league, get stronger, whatever.
Even Dennis Rodman didn't get called an elite defender until he had played at least a few years. I remember early Rodman. Everyone loved he guarded multiple positions and played hard and said he was a really good defender but they didn't talk about him being elite until later on.
Two things in play here. One, that rookies just usually aren't elite. Two, that the term "elite" and "great" for defenders gets used a lot less often than those two words get used around scorers.

[Polk377]

Frank and Burke both suck

[HarthorneWingo]

He does get intense on defense though. The naysayers have a legit basis for saying he can sometimes be too passive as a ball handler or shot maker, but it is not an issue on defense. And he is picking up his aggression on offense notably lately so even that side is showing the first signs of a higher level of intensity too.

I think maybe he means that Frank isn't as physical as most great defenders. He's all over his man but gives a bit more space (maybe for recovery?), was leading the league in deflections for a while and can switch and bother almost anyone with his length (Otto Porter couldn't shoot over him all night and had to rely on attacking him with power moves to middling results at best). But I wouldn't say he lacks intensity, just the physicality that you typically see.

Refs have been calling him for some BS fouls though. When Frank correctly anticipates what the offensive player will do and gets to that position on the court first (before the offensive player does), the refs have been calling Frank for the block that was really just a good play (IMO). The refs don't seem used to his skill level.

[thebuzzardman]

Frank and Burke both suck

Just tired of all the same arguments, trying for something new.

[Greenie]

i think when a guy is really a great defender, you don't need to convince anyone of it. it's obvious to everyone. when you watch the guys who are known for that, nobody denies it. because they can't. he might be excelling in some areas according to stats (a stat that has westbrook and curry in the top 10 so...) but i wouldn't say he's reached that point. nor should he in first year probably. you have people going hard at him because his first year has been somewhat disappointing. and you have people who are trying to find the positives in the hope that we made a good pick after all. it's too early to really know either way.

I’m not even going hard at Frank. You can’t however call him an ELITE defender and think that won’t get questioned. Elite he is not. Very good? Yes. Potential to be better? Yes. Elite at this point? Not at all.

But let some fonts tell it and he’s the best there is. It’s just like KP being considered an elite defensive player due to his blocks.

[Clyde_Style]

Now I understand what the confusion is all about

People meant to say Frank is erudite

Easy mistake to make

[HarthorneWingo]

i think when a guy is really a great defender, you don't need to convince anyone of it. it's obvious to everyone. when you watch the guys who are known for that, nobody denies it. because they can't. he might be excelling in some areas according to stats (a stat that has westbrook and curry in the top 10 so...) but i wouldn't say he's reached that point. nor should he in first year probably. you have people going hard at him because his first year has been somewhat disappointing. and you have people who are trying to find the positives in the hope that we made a good pick after all. it's too early to really know either way.

I’m not even going hard at Frank. You can’t however call him an ELITE defender and think that won’t get questioned. Elite he is not. Very good? Yes. Potential to be better? Yes. Elite at this point? Not at all.

But let some fonts tell it and he’s the best there is. It’s just like KP being considered an elite defensive player due to his blocks.

[Greenie]

i think when a guy is really a great defender, you don't need to convince anyone of it. it's obvious to everyone. when you watch the guys who are known for that, nobody denies it. because they can't. he might be excelling in some areas according to stats (a stat that has westbrook and curry in the top 10 so...) but i wouldn't say he's reached that point. nor should he in first year probably. you have people going hard at him because his first year has been somewhat disappointing. and you have people who are trying to find the positives in the hope that we made a good pick after all. it's too early to really know either way.

I've seen enough to say he's a good defender. Not some STOPPER, but he's a good defender.

Everyone acknowledges he a solid defensive player. Now people are calling him ELITE. Hell no.

[Fury]

Not what I asked but OK.
I asked for ranks.

Knicks are 20th in team defense. AKA they suck on defense. Meaning that it’s not hard to look like the best defender on this team.

People love stats to say Frank is an ELITE defender, so what are his ranks across the league on this trash defensive team?

The Timberwolves have spent this season between 19th-23rd in team defense before Butler went down. Is Butler not an elite defender?

Why is he the best? Because that stat isolates P&R defense?

Run me the top 25 on that list.

What about transition, perimeter and interior? How about rotations and switches? Doubles and traps?

That's moving the goal posts.

You said he's not elite at anything. I show you he's the best guard in the league at guarding the PnR, and you want stats for intangible things like rotations.

That stat is his rank across the league.

Here are the 24 guards he's ranked ahead of as of this morning:

I don’t really care what you’re posting. Frank is not an elite defensive player at this point. He’s not elite at anything at this point. Offense or defense.

At defending the pick and roll. Don’t let the facts sway you I guess

[Greenie]

i think when a guy is really a great defender, you don't need to convince anyone of it. it's obvious to everyone. when you watch the guys who are known for that, nobody denies it. because they can't. he might be excelling in some areas according to stats (a stat that has westbrook and curry in the top 10 so...) but i wouldn't say he's reached that point. nor should he in first year probably. you have people going hard at him because his first year has been somewhat disappointing. and you have people who are trying to find the positives in the hope that we made a good pick after all. it's too early to really know either way.

I’m not even going hard at Frank. You can’t however call him an ELITE defender and think that won’t get questioned. Elite he is not. Very good? Yes. Potential to be better? Yes. Elite at this point? Not at all.

But let some fonts tell it and he’s the best there is. It’s just like KP being considered an elite defensive player due to his blocks.