Knicks | Sixers PG: Trust The Process Edition (Scott Perry Take Notes)

[thebuzzardman]

Agreed 100%, my main issue with the 19 ppg is that it's coming at "meh" efficiency and it's more of a "12 pts today, 27 pts tomorrow" type of joint. I think as a third guy in the right situation he'd be good and as a sixth man he's high quality. But I will throw in the caveat I just mentioned, a high level coach could probably draw out a lot more from this guy (likely even, we saw it in ATL).

I like to beat up on THJr. It's my favorite game right now. But the player you mentioned isn't bad. My problem is that the player you mentioned isn't worth 18 million per. That's on Mills though. Not THJr's fault.

Except for the fact that he takes plays off on defense a lot. That's all on Timmy.

It would be nice if we had a coach that held him accountable and made him work on his game like Coach Bud.

This was a concern everyone voiced when he was signed. It was fairly universal that people were scared that most of THJr's improvement came from the stern hand and teaching of Coach Bud. Some thought it was mostly that and he'd regress, others thought he learned and turned the corner. I think I was in the 2nd group. Turns out both were sort of right. He's grown as an offensive player (in spite of being streaky) but that defense? Nah. If THJr doesn't have to play it, he won't.

He might look better if the Knicks get the right coach.
Chances Knicks get the right coach < 10%

[KnickFan33]

I think the Philly process is given more credit than it's due. Granted they were in perpetual tank mode and they are finally reaping the benefits, but they had little to no player development for a number of years. The first signs they showed of being fun to watch was last year when Embiid could play. All years previous to that were brutal to watch. The constant injuries to Embiid played a huge role in the end results.

Don't get me wrong, its awesome how things turned out for them. But I'd rather watch players grow as a individuals and a team than constantly having players red-shirted due to injury.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I think the Philly process is given more credit than it's due. Granted they were in perpetual tank mode and they are finally reaping the benefits, but they had little to no player development for a number of years. The first signs they showed of being fun to watch was last year when Embiid could play. All years previous to that were brutal to watch. The constant injuries to Embiid played a huge role in the end results.

Don't get me wrong, its awesome how things turned out for them. But I'd rather watch players grow as a individuals and a team than constantly having players red-shirted due to injury.

i disagree. i think player development has been their biggest strength since brett brown became HC. the problem with using philly as an example is that the team has to be hamstrung by injury for multiple seasons. can't exactly bank on that.

embiid is healthier earlier, they win more. simmons healthier earlier, they win more. embiid bringing them more wins maybe elminates their ability to get simmons, etc.

but the sixers always looked like they were scrapping out there, even when they were trash.

[IllmaticHandler]

he’s ours next year. best scorer to come out of HS since Tatum

Watch on YouTube

[Capn'O]

I don't understand how dumb this franchise and fan base can be. How many posters on here wanted to keep Melo? How many times did advocates for a trade in the final year of his contract can laughed at saying tanking gets you nothing. Sure a lot of us wanted Melo gone, but a lot wanted him here too.

Did anyone really think we could rebuild a team around him in 2014?

I didn't really want the team to bring him back but we were in a bad spot to try to go the Philly route without a first rounder in 2016. I'd say depends on the deal. We were talking about a sign and trade with Chicago and some of those options seemed ok... but not great. Especially now that we know what Mirotic is. But he'd have to have agreed to it since he was a free agent. Without a great deal lined up, there wasn't a clearly better option. The team rolled the dice on being able to get LMA or DeAndre in 2015, which would have been enticing for Durant or another player in 2016 but those guys didn't come. Supposedly DeAndre was close. Who knows.

Due to the Philly/Boston embarrassments, teams have caught on not to do dumbass deals for their first rounders so we missed that boat. The balance has now swung the other way in that regard to where first rounders are a little overvalued in trades. More likely, the most aggressive route would have been to let him walk and hoard cap space to fleece desperate teams with after the cap rise. Unless we get super lucky in the draft, we're still a few years off. It is what it is.

[KnickFan33]

I think the Philly process is given more credit than it's due. Granted they were in perpetual tank mode and they are finally reaping the benefits, but they had little to no player development for a number of years. The first signs they showed of being fun to watch was last year when Embiid could play. All years previous to that were brutal to watch. The constant injuries to Embiid played a huge role in the end results.

Don't get me wrong, its awesome how things turned out for them. But I'd rather watch players grow as a individuals and a team than constantly having players red-shirted due to injury.

i disagree. i think player development has been their biggest strength since brett brown became HC. the problem with using philly as an example is that the team has to be hamstrung by injury for multiple seasons. can't exactly bank on that.

embiid is healthier earlier, they win more. simmons healthier earlier, they win more. embiid bringing them more wins maybe elminates their ability to get simmons, etc.

but the sixers always looked like they were scrapping out there, even when they were trash.

That's precisely the point. Their current roster is predicated on injuries. I'm all about the tank, but Philly was actually kind of "lucky" that their major draft pieces got/were injured. I would be nervous as hell if we were going through the same exact process.

[3toheadmelo]

he’s ours next year. best scorer to come out of HS since Tatum

Watch on YouTube

[3toheadmelo]

he’s ours next year. best scorer to come out of HS since Tatum

Watch on YouTube

so... in 2 years?

?

[Kinglee]

Beta
2nd option

We've seen many players miss games, we've seen completely different rotations as well. It's not a black and white thing. With KP, we've loss to the Hawks and Bulls multiple times. Lets not overrate the impact he had when we were out of the playoffs IN THE EAST, with him.

Eh...you can't really talk yourself out of this one. I get it's not completely 100% black and white, but it's pretty damn close. Just because we lost to the Hawks and Bulls with KP doesn't really mean much. Without him we probably lose those games by a lot more (those losses were all close). With KP we beat Cleveland, Denver, Indy, Utah twice, Clippers, Raptors, Pelicans, etc. The eye test alone shows you the type of impact he had.

With him they were barely out of the playoffs in the east. Since he went down they have the third worst record in the league behind Memphis and Phoenix. Our vets have been pretty healthy. We've had no significant injuries to anyone since he went down. I think that's pretty cut and dry and it's hard to argue with those numbers. You're ignoring the fact that even though we were crappy before he went down we are way more crappy without him.

1. He's our best player, we are suppose to be horrible without him
2. Prior to his injury, we were 7-18 in our last 25 games WITH HIM.

He had one good month, lets not overrate his impact. Thank u

[fatalogic]

I think the Philly process is given more credit than it's due. Granted they were in perpetual tank mode and they are finally reaping the benefits, but they had little to no player development for a number of years. The first signs they showed of being fun to watch was last year when Embiid could play. All years previous to that were brutal to watch. The constant injuries to Embiid played a huge role in the end results.

Don't get me wrong, its awesome how things turned out for them. But I'd rather watch players grow as a individuals and a team than constantly having players red-shirted due to injury.

i disagree. i think player development has been their biggest strength since brett brown became HC. the problem with using philly as an example is that the team has to be hamstrung by injury for multiple seasons. can't exactly bank on that.

embiid is healthier earlier, they win more. simmons healthier earlier, they win more. embiid bringing them more wins maybe elminates their ability to get simmons, etc.

but the sixers always looked like they were scrapping out there, even when they were trash.

That's precisely the point. Their current roster is predicated on injuries. I'm all about the tank, but Philly was actually kind of "lucky" that their major draft pieces got/were injured. I would be nervous as hell if we were going through the same exact process.

They definitely were lucky but I think they also had a plan. That's what makes them different than the Suns and Orlando. They systematically worked to get those top picks. Ben Simmons could have come back earlier than they did and Embiid was held out a lot more than medically necessary. They however put a value on long term results and asset collection.

Also don't forget they could have had KP if he didn't refuse to work out for them. Imagine Fultz, Simmons, KP and Embiid on the same team. I don't want the Knicks to just tank to collect draft picks, They need to make a commitment to a process, get a coach not based on name but on his vision and skills, create a plan, then execute it. Scott Perry has actually impressed me at least with his ability to find NBA players on the cheap and sign them to team friendly deals. Also the Knicks G-league team is starting to become consistent in producing NBA talent. There is a lot to complain about when it comes to the Knicks but there are some bright spots too.

[Greenie]

I'm pretty disturbed at how passive and forgettable THJ looks with his massive contract and getting outshined by guys on cheap contracts like Beasley and Burke on some nights. I was hoping he'd be a 20 ppg guy with KP out but he's streaky as ever and some games just looks mentally checked out to me.

I was just saying this to one of my friends. There were times that I completely forgot he was playing. That shouldn't be the case. And they keep saying how he's having a career year. SMH.

I'm not seeing the miraculous defensive transformation I was promised either

I swear he was different in ATL.
I promise you.
This franchise is like the place were players regress. It’s weird.

[PeoplesChamp]

If he was 2 inches taller with the same athleticism we wouldn't be able to draft him at 9 lol

lol true. I'd like to see him be more aggressive. He's got a crazy combination of strength, athleticism and body control. enough to become a star player and he is good at attacking closeouts. look at his power on display at the 1:02 mark.

Watch on YouTube

he is listed at 230 so if he fills out even more while keeping his explosiveness and athletic ability he can be Lebron-lite.

He's a short PF. His hips are too stiff, and his movements aren't fluid enough to play the 3 effectively in the NBA. If we're content with a short stretch 4, he's the man.

Sounds like Clearance Weatherspoon...getting bad flashbacks of having him, Othella Harrington & Maurice Taylor on the team as Scott Layden collected undersized 4's like it was going out of style.

[Capn'O]

The Philly Process worked. Hands down success. I can't believe there are still doubters of that. They had 3-4 bad seasons, down from mediocre ones before it started. Now they will be very good for a long time. That was the exact design.

I was just saying this to one of my friends. There were times that I completely forgot he was playing. That shouldn't be the case. And they keep saying how he's having a career year. SMH.

I'm not seeing the miraculous defensive transformation I was promised either

I swear he was different in ATL.
I promise you.
This franchise is like the place were players regress. It’s weird.

Players can be a product of their environment. Last year he had Millsap and Howard as his bigs and a legit PG next to him. He looked good next to KP much of the time. Now he's got Beasley and Kanter and is just learning to play with Burke and Frank. The team ain't battling for jack. How interested in team ball can you be?

[Polk377]

lol true. I'd like to see him be more aggressive. He's got a crazy combination of strength, athleticism and body control. enough to become a star player and he is good at attacking closeouts. look at his power on display at the 1:02 mark.

Watch on YouTube

he is listed at 230 so if he fills out even more while keeping his explosiveness and athletic ability he can be Lebron-lite.

He's a short PF. His hips are too stiff, and his movements aren't fluid enough to play the 3 effectively in the NBA. If we're content with a short stretch 4, he's the man.

Sounds like Clearance Weatherspoon...getting bad flashbacks of having him, Othella Harrington & Maurice Taylor on the team as Scott Layden collected undersized 4's like it was going out of style.

He is not a 4 and worked hard this season to prove it. The problem with those guys mentioned was a lack of work ethic and eating their way out of the league. Miles is a gym rat and wants to be great.

[KnickFan33]

i disagree. i think player development has been their biggest strength since brett brown became HC. the problem with using philly as an example is that the team has to be hamstrung by injury for multiple seasons. can't exactly bank on that.

embiid is healthier earlier, they win more. simmons healthier earlier, they win more. embiid bringing them more wins maybe elminates their ability to get simmons, etc.

but the sixers always looked like they were scrapping out there, even when they were trash.

That's precisely the point. Their current roster is predicated on injuries. I'm all about the tank, but Philly was actually kind of "lucky" that their major draft pieces got/were injured. I would be nervous as hell if we were going through the same exact process.

They definitely were lucky but I think they also had a plan. That's what makes them different than the Suns and Orlando. They systematically worked to get those top picks. Ben Simmons could have come back earlier than they did and Embiid was held out a lot more than medically necessary. They however put a value on long term results and asset collection.

Also don't forget they could have had KP if he didn't refuse to work out for them. Imagine Fultz, Simmons, KP and Embiid on the same team. I don't want the Knicks to just tank to collect draft picks, They need to make a commitment to a process, get a coach not based on name but on his vision and skills, create a plan, then execute it. Scott Perry has actually impressed me at least with his ability to find NBA players on the cheap and sign them to team friendly deals. Also the Knicks G-league team is starting to become consistent in producing NBA talent. There is a lot to complain about when it comes to the Knicks but there are some bright spots too.

If they draft KP, there's no guarantee that they get Simmons. Holding Embiid and Simmons back longer than necessary may be true, but all I'm saying is that none of that is really feasible if it weren't for the injuries.

In regards to Embiid, I'd already be scared drafting a player with a serious injury in the first place. That gamble worked out for them.

[dakomish23]

The Sixers were both very fortunate with their tank and very smart. They made some brilliant trades (the Kings trade), some great picks and some bad picks. If Embiid doesn't get hurt then they probably don't have Simmons. And for every Sixers situation you have teams like Orlando, Phoenix, and Sac who draft in the top 8 seemingly every year with very little to show for it.

Drafting in the top 8 and wasting your money on garbage vets is comparable to drafting in the top 3 4 years in a row and using your cap space to gain assets??

It’s not apples to apples.

When did I compare what we have done to what they did? I didn't even mention us once. All I'm trying to say is that tanking like the Sixers did is not easy to do and doesn't always yield the best results. A lot of things had to break their way in addition to their smart moves. If Embiid is healthy going into the draft, the Sixers end up with Jabari Parker. If Embiid doesn't get hurt for two seasons, they don't get Simmons. Year after year Orlando is drafting high and they are as bad as ever.

You seem to think that all we have to do is trust the process like the Sixers did and bam, we will be ok. Not necessarily true at all. Their situation was very rare and hard to replicate even with planning. I know you don't want to believe this, but a lot of this is luck mixed in with smart decision making. They got lucky and were smart. They also made some bad moves along the way (Okafor, Noel, Boston trade for Fultz etc.).

You used PHO ORL SAC in comparison.

So for the comparison you laid out, I showed the obvious differences.

No where did i mention the Knicks.

And let’s be real. If we were doing what PHI did, you’d be arguing that the PHI model seems to have worked out for them and we should be happy we are following it. The only reason you are not going that route is because the Knicks are not doing it.

[dakomish23]

The Philly Process worked. Hands down success. I can't believe there are still doubters of that. They had 3-4 bad seasons, down from mediocre ones before it started. Now they will be very good for a long time. That was the exact design.

I'm not seeing the miraculous defensive transformation I was promised either

I swear he was different in ATL.
I promise you.
This franchise is like the place were players regress. It’s weird.

Players can be a product of their environment. Last year he had Millsap and Howard as his bigs and a legit PG next to him. He looked good next to KP much of the time. Now he's got Beasley and Kanter and is just learning to play with Burke and Frank. The team ain't battling for jack. How interested in team ball can you be?

Yep. Even after having to trade away 3 lottery picks on their rookie deals, they still came away successful.

I understand if folks don’t think they could stomach it though. 3-4 seasons is a lot. Folks couldn’t stand the losing post KP injury

[thebuzzardman]

I was just saying this to one of my friends. There were times that I completely forgot he was playing. That shouldn't be the case. And they keep saying how he's having a career year. SMH.

I'm not seeing the miraculous defensive transformation I was promised either

I swear he was different in ATL.
I promise you.
This franchise is like the place were players regress. It’s weird.

It's called a coach holding him accountable.

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

[Capn'O]

The Philly Process worked. Hands down success. I can't believe there are still doubters of that. They had 3-4 bad seasons, down from mediocre ones before it started. Now they will be very good for a long time. That was the exact design.

I swear he was different in ATL.
I promise you.
This franchise is like the place were players regress. It’s weird.

Players can be a product of their environment. Last year he had Millsap and Howard as his bigs and a legit PG next to him. He looked good next to KP much of the time. Now he's got Beasley and Kanter and is just learning to play with Burke and Frank. The team ain't battling for jack. How interested in team ball can you be?

Yep. Even after having to trade away 3 lottery picks on their rookie deals, they still came away successful.

I understand if folks don’t think they could stomach it though. 3-4 seasons is a lot. Folks couldn’t stand the losing post KP injury

A lot of people still don't understand how many good assets Hinkie got as well. They have other peoples' tanks in their army.

3-4 more bad seasons sounds like heaven to me. We've had one good season since 2001! And only one glorious one where we actually had our pick.