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Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries

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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#21 » by Capn'O » Thu Apr 5, 2018 6:52 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Dr. Detfink wrote:Two more seasons, and $25M remaining on a dead, unmovable contract.

Like Bill Simmons said, you sign someone like Lee, Hardaway Jr when you have at least 4 pieces to the puzzle in place to contend NOT add the 7th best player first, then hope a superstar comes to town.


If Perry is for real, he's basically riding this out for two more years without adding more dead weight contracts.

He could accomplish a lot on the rebuilding side in the meantime with drafts and pick-ups for building out the bench and maybe landing a legit starter on a cost controlled deal. If this is finally the GM who is able to pursue a legit rebuild, next year is basically a tank year.

If KP does come back strong and stays healthy, then the season after next could see the team leaving the lottery hunt and heading to the playoffs if they develop cheap players well these next 18 months.

But with Lee, Tim and Noah's contracts, we're talking two more seasons before the cap opens wide up unless Perry bogs us down again the next two years.

So if they sign someone like KOQ to a 2 year deal with a third year option for $12M a year it probably won't affect the franchise much if their sights are set on clearing the cap by 2020.

At this point, the big question is whether or not this is the way Perry will proceed and whether or not Mills will fall in line.


The Knicks do have a rare opportunity to not **** things up. Maybe you just give SuperCoolBeas a super big 1yr deal and punt :lol:
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#22 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Apr 5, 2018 7:08 pm

Capn'O wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Dr. Detfink wrote:Two more seasons, and $25M remaining on a dead, unmovable contract.

Like Bill Simmons said, you sign someone like Lee, Hardaway Jr when you have at least 4 pieces to the puzzle in place to contend NOT add the 7th best player first, then hope a superstar comes to town.


If Perry is for real, he's basically riding this out for two more years without adding more dead weight contracts.

He could accomplish a lot on the rebuilding side in the meantime with drafts and pick-ups for building out the bench and maybe landing a legit starter on a cost controlled deal. If this is finally the GM who is able to pursue a legit rebuild, next year is basically a tank year.

If KP does come back strong and stays healthy, then the season after next could see the team leaving the lottery hunt and heading to the playoffs if they develop cheap players well these next 18 months.

But with Lee, Tim and Noah's contracts, we're talking two more seasons before the cap opens wide up unless Perry bogs us down again the next two years.

So if they sign someone like KOQ to a 2 year deal with a third year option for $12M a year it probably won't affect the franchise much if their sights are set on clearing the cap by 2020.

At this point, the big question is whether or not this is the way Perry will proceed and whether or not Mills will fall in line.


The Knicks do have a rare opportunity to not **** things up. Maybe you just give SuperCoolBeas a super big 1yr deal and punt :lol:


I'm sending Da Beas to Stopping Bucket Camp this Summer.

He's coming back as a bona fide 2-way superstar with cornrows
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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#23 » by dakomish23 » Thu Apr 5, 2018 8:59 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:I like Lee but he should have been moved last offseason. Send him to a contender


Should of been part of the Melo deal along with KOQ. Give me a prospect in Ferguson and lottery tickets Grant and Abrines.

Rebuild not reload
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#24 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Apr 5, 2018 8:59 pm

Marty McFly wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Marty McFly wrote:it's not that assuring that simmons agrees with the talking points some of us have been making, but he's right.


We signed Lee when we were trying to appease Melo and place veteran talent around him like he wanted.

he was, but hardaway was not. a "new" FO should have turned a new leaf, but it was more of the same with tim.


Yeah, I know. But at least Tim is still young and can, hopefully, be developed further. He definitely needs to improve his game in certain areas and make it more consistent. I also would like to see him used more just at SG, unless it's to match up against a three-guard offense. He gets abused by other SFs on defense.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#25 » by dakomish23 » Thu Apr 5, 2018 9:00 pm

Capn'O wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Dr. Detfink wrote:Two more seasons, and $25M remaining on a dead, unmovable contract.

Like Bill Simmons said, you sign someone like Lee, Hardaway Jr when you have at least 4 pieces to the puzzle in place to contend NOT add the 7th best player first, then hope a superstar comes to town.


If Perry is for real, he's basically riding this out for two more years without adding more dead weight contracts.

He could accomplish a lot on the rebuilding side in the meantime with drafts and pick-ups for building out the bench and maybe landing a legit starter on a cost controlled deal. If this is finally the GM who is able to pursue a legit rebuild, next year is basically a tank year.

If KP does come back strong and stays healthy, then the season after next could see the team leaving the lottery hunt and heading to the playoffs if they develop cheap players well these next 18 months.

But with Lee, Tim and Noah's contracts, we're talking two more seasons before the cap opens wide up unless Perry bogs us down again the next two years.

So if they sign someone like KOQ to a 2 year deal with a third year option for $12M a year it probably won't affect the franchise much if their sights are set on clearing the cap by 2020.

At this point, the big question is whether or not this is the way Perry will proceed and whether or not Mills will fall in line.


The Knicks do have a rare opportunity to not **** things up. Maybe you just give SuperCoolBeas a super big 1yr deal and punt :lol:


More. Mess things up more.

I can’t believe the state of our books when we are a legitimately bad team.
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Spoiler:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1592147&start=1720#p57345128





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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#26 » by Dr. Detfink » Thu Apr 5, 2018 9:21 pm

Courtney Lee has been shopped but again, NO ONE takes those kind of contracts anymore. Why oh why would you spend $12M/season on a guy who is probably 7th best player on a team like the Rockets, Warriors...not even the Sixers wanted him.

If teams turned their nose up at GM Scott Perry asking for a half eaten hot dog & second rounder for an expiring contract, Kyle O'Quinn $4M (has a player option)...you KNOW the Knicks' so-called assets outside of KP are worthless.

NO ONE wants Lee. NO ONE wants O'Quinn. No one wants the Knicks' garbage.

Again, these players PREVENT you from a top 5 lottery draft pick. They don't make you into contenders. They keep you mired in the purgatory of mediocrity non-playoff team.
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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#27 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Apr 5, 2018 9:46 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:Courtney Lee has been shopped but again, NO ONE takes those kind of contracts anymore. Why oh why would you spend $12M/season on a guy who is probably 7th best player on a team like the Rockets, Warriors...not even the Sixers wanted him.

If teams turned their nose up at GM Scott Perry asking for a half eaten hot dog & second rounder for an expiring contract, Kyle O'Quinn $4M (has a player option)...you KNOW the Knicks' so-called assets outside of KP are worthless.

NO ONE wants Lee. NO ONE wants O'Quinn. No one wants the Knicks' garbage.

Again, these players PREVENT you from a top 5 lottery draft pick. They don't make you into contenders. They keep you mired in the purgatory of mediocrity non-playoff team.


Teams were interested in Lee and KOQ last offseason but we weren't looking to move them. His contaract is not bad and teams are always looking for 3d players. 7th best player on the warriors or rockets is a decent player. We could move him if we really wanted too...maybe we wouldn't get a first rounder, but teams would be interested.

As the Knicks peruse the trade market, teams around the NBA appear to be expressing interest in potentially acquiring O’Quinn.

New York has been engaged in trade talks with the Cleveland Cavaliers and Houston Rockets about a deal that would be centered around Carmelo Anthony. While Anthony may be the most coveted player on the roster, he isn’t the only Knick whom teams are intrigued by.

According to Ian Begley of ESPN New York, teams have contacted the Knicks about the possibility of swapping a veteran point guard for O’Quinn.

The Knicks are searching for a veteran point guard to play in front of Frank Ntilikina and, outside of Anthony, the Knicks have also received interest in trade talks on Courtney Lee and Kyle O’Quinn, per sources.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#28 » by Greenie » Thu Apr 5, 2018 9:52 pm

Marty McFly wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:This roster at full strength is a lottery team.

we're a middle of the lotto team at half the strength. we'd be a bottom of the lotto team at worst.

Not really
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#29 » by Marty McFly » Thu Apr 5, 2018 11:00 pm

Greenie wrote:
Marty McFly wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:This roster at full strength is a lottery team.

we're a middle of the lotto team at half the strength. we'd be a bottom of the lotto team at worst.

Not really

yeah really.
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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#30 » by Besart19 » Thu Apr 5, 2018 11:00 pm

Timmy, Lee and Chi 2nd for Jabari would be like winning the lottery!!

Keep Noah as a backup C and dont resign neither KOQ nor Kanter...

Problem solved

Burke / Mudiay / Jack
Ntilikina / Dotson / Baker
Draft / Hezonja / Thomas
Jabari / Beasley / T-Will
Porzingis / Noah / Okafor
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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#31 » by Knicksfan20 » Thu Apr 5, 2018 11:01 pm

god shammgod wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Courtney like Jefe because he gets starting SG/SF minutes at 34 mpg as a jag journeyman.


i don't think he even does like him. i think courtney likes living in ny and is worried about them shaking up the team. he had them promise him he wouldn't be traded during the past summer according to that guy he talks to on twitter.


Cuz him and Harlow are banging.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#32 » by nykballa2k4 » Thu Apr 5, 2018 11:26 pm

Handledatruth wrote:To be honest, Jeff did more with less talent than the other tanking teams. As a matter of fact, if he were truly a bad coach we would be talking about Ayton right now and not Bridges. My only frustration with him is how he handled Frank N's minutes this year, but looking at that now, Frank has had some pretty sub par PG minutes (minus his defense). I'm sure most coaches would not play a rookie that is struggling to adjust to the speed and strength of NBA players.


Did he? Other teams played tank line ups. Jeff put out his most trusted vets every game. I don't like to play armchair expert, but in some cases, fans know more than the coach. There was a play in the baseball playoffs Mets vs Nats I believe where an OF caught a ball in foul territory which allowed a run to score. I was ELATED. I am no pro, but I felt it that if there was another swing, perhaps we'd have hit into a double play or had an unproductive out. Some professional choices don't pass the sniff test. Not playing Noah when our teams CLEAR deficiency was defensive intensity out of the gate, primarily from the center position, was just a complete miscue.

If something ISNT working, you gotta adapt. Jeffs philosophy and the personnel are a mismatch.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#33 » by Greenie » Thu Apr 5, 2018 11:31 pm

Marty McFly wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Marty McFly wrote:we're a middle of the lotto team at half the strength. we'd be a bottom of the lotto team at worst.

Not really

yeah really.

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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#34 » by Jalen Bluntson » Fri Apr 6, 2018 12:01 am

Besart19 wrote:Timmy, Lee and Chi 2nd for Jabari would be like winning the lottery!!

Keep Noah as a backup C and dont resign neither KOQ nor Kanter...

Problem solved

Burke / Mudiay / Jack
Ntilikina / Dotson / Baker
Draft / Hezonja / Thomas
Jabari / Beasley / T-Will
Porzingis / Noah / Okafor


Jabari on a max? He's looking to get paid.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#35 » by Handledatruth » Fri Apr 6, 2018 1:07 am

nykballa2k4 wrote:
Handledatruth wrote:To be honest, Jeff did more with less talent than the other tanking teams. As a matter of fact, if he were truly a bad coach we would be talking about Ayton right now and not Bridges. My only frustration with him is how he handled Frank N's minutes this year, but looking at that now, Frank has had some pretty sub par PG minutes (minus his defense). I'm sure most coaches would not play a rookie that is struggling to adjust to the speed and strength of NBA players.


Did he? Other teams played tank line ups. Jeff put out his most trusted vets every game. I don't like to play armchair expert, but in some cases, fans know more than the coach. There was a play in the baseball playoffs Mets vs Nats I believe where an OF caught a ball in foul territory which allowed a run to score. I was ELATED. I am no pro, but I felt it that if there was another swing, perhaps we'd have hit into a double play or had an unproductive out. Some professional choices don't pass the sniff test. Not playing Noah when our teams CLEAR deficiency was defensive intensity out of the gate, primarily from the center position, was just a complete miscue.

If something ISNT working, you gotta adapt. Jeffs philosophy and the personnel are a mismatch.


I'm not sure how you can consider tanking as successful coaching. You coach to win and as much as I dislike Jarrett Jack's defense, he gave our most effective PG minutes on the offensive end until Trey Burke came along (as awful as that sounds). Jeff's most effective brand of basketball occurred in Phoenix and revolved around PGs that attack and create. Despite that knowledge and armed with a top 10 pick in a guard heavy draft, all the Knick front office could give him for the majority of the season was Jarrett Jack. All that being said there are a few teams in the "tank" with more talent than the Knicks:

-Mavericks
-Suns
-Orlando
-Chicago
-Sacramento
-LA Lakers (ok maybe they are not fully in the tank)

I'll pick on one team in particular:
Orlando has Fournier, Vucevik, and Gordon but can only squeak out 24 games in a weak Eastern Conference? Name one player on the Knicks not named Porzingis that you WOULD NOT trade for any of those 3? Furthermore, why I am seeing news articles about Vogel after leaving a team that is currently in the playoffs to coach a 24 win team without talent issues? What am I missing about this amazing coaching job? Looking at the results on paper, we truly got the better coach, but in your measurement Vogel's tank job weighs more. I'm just not understanding the logic.

All that being said, if you go through my older posts you can see me vocally complaining about Hornacek's substitution patterns and his treatment of Frank. However, I understand that it is challenging to have a solid rotation with a roster full of flawed players (Noah obviously included). I honestly don't think he could have gotten anymore out of this roster given the circumstances (injuries, poor planning in the off-season, a lottery pick clearly not ready for the NBA), especially when the team was on track for the high 30s in wins prior to KP's season ending injury.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#36 » by Jalen Bluntson » Fri Apr 6, 2018 1:58 am

Handledatruth wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
Handledatruth wrote:To be honest, Jeff did more with less talent than the other tanking teams. As a matter of fact, if he were truly a bad coach we would be talking about Ayton right now and not Bridges. My only frustration with him is how he handled Frank N's minutes this year, but looking at that now, Frank has had some pretty sub par PG minutes (minus his defense). I'm sure most coaches would not play a rookie that is struggling to adjust to the speed and strength of NBA players.


Did he? Other teams played tank line ups. Jeff put out his most trusted vets every game. I don't like to play armchair expert, but in some cases, fans know more than the coach. There was a play in the baseball playoffs Mets vs Nats I believe where an OF caught a ball in foul territory which allowed a run to score. I was ELATED. I am no pro, but I felt it that if there was another swing, perhaps we'd have hit into a double play or had an unproductive out. Some professional choices don't pass the sniff test. Not playing Noah when our teams CLEAR deficiency was defensive intensity out of the gate, primarily from the center position, was just a complete miscue.

If something ISNT working, you gotta adapt. Jeffs philosophy and the personnel are a mismatch.


I'm not sure how you can consider tanking as successful coaching. You coach to win and as much as I dislike Jarrett Jack's defense, he gave our most effective PG minutes on the offensive end until Trey Burke came along (as awful as that sounds). Jeff's most effective brand of basketball occurred in Phoenix and revolved around PGs that attack and create. Despite that knowledge and armed with a top 10 pick in a guard heavy draft, all the Knick front office could give him for the majority of the season was Jarrett Jack. All that being said there are a few teams in the "tank" with more talent than the Knicks:

-Mavericks
-Suns
-Orlando
-Chicago
-Sacramento
-LA Lakers (ok maybe they are not fully in the tank)

I'll pick on one team in particular:
Orlando has Fournier, Vucevik, and Gordon but can only squeak out 24 games in a weak Eastern Conference? Name one player on the Knicks not named Porzingis that you WOULD NOT trade for any of those 3? Furthermore, why I am seeing news articles about Vogel after leaving a team that is currently in the playoffs to coach a 24 win team without talent issues? What am I missing about this amazing coaching job? Looking at the results on paper, we truly got the better coach, but in your measurement Vogel's tank job weighs more. I'm just not understanding the logic.

All that being said, if you go through my older posts you can see me vocally complaining about Hornacek's substitution patterns and his treatment of Frank. However, I understand that it is challenging to have a solid rotation with a roster full of flawed players (Noah obviously included). I honestly don't think he could have gotten anymore out of this roster given the circumstances (injuries, poor planning in the off-season, a lottery pick clearly not ready for the NBA), especially when the team was on track for the high 30s in wins prior to KP's season ending injury.


I agree with most of this but, Jeff kept forcing the same garbage out there. He stressed defense and accountability and unless you were 23 and under...you could do whatever you want out there. He really did the Jekyll and Hyde on us and it was quick too. December on he was constantly fuggin up. The first 32 games he was solid. The last 50...trash.

Not to mention Billy/Noah deal.
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#37 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Apr 6, 2018 2:03 am

Handledatruth wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
Handledatruth wrote:To be honest, Jeff did more with less talent than the other tanking teams. As a matter of fact, if he were truly a bad coach we would be talking about Ayton right now and not Bridges. My only frustration with him is how he handled Frank N's minutes this year, but looking at that now, Frank has had some pretty sub par PG minutes (minus his defense). I'm sure most coaches would not play a rookie that is struggling to adjust to the speed and strength of NBA players.


Did he? Other teams played tank line ups. Jeff put out his most trusted vets every game. I don't like to play armchair expert, but in some cases, fans know more than the coach. There was a play in the baseball playoffs Mets vs Nats I believe where an OF caught a ball in foul territory which allowed a run to score. I was ELATED. I am no pro, but I felt it that if there was another swing, perhaps we'd have hit into a double play or had an unproductive out. Some professional choices don't pass the sniff test. Not playing Noah when our teams CLEAR deficiency was defensive intensity out of the gate, primarily from the center position, was just a complete miscue.

If something ISNT working, you gotta adapt. Jeffs philosophy and the personnel are a mismatch.


I'm not sure how you can consider tanking as successful coaching. You coach to win and as much as I dislike Jarrett Jack's defense, he gave our most effective PG minutes on the offensive end until Trey Burke came along (as awful as that sounds). Jeff's most effective brand of basketball occurred in Phoenix and revolved around PGs that attack and create. Despite that knowledge and armed with a top 10 pick in a guard heavy draft, all the Knick front office could give him for the majority of the season was Jarrett Jack. All that being said there are a few teams in the "tank" with more talent than the Knicks:

-Mavericks
-Suns
-Orlando
-Chicago
-Sacramento
-LA Lakers (ok maybe they are not fully in the tank)

I'll pick on one team in particular:
Orlando has Fournier, Vucevik, and Gordon but can only squeak out 24 games in a weak Eastern Conference? Name one player on the Knicks not named Porzingis that you WOULD NOT trade for any of those 3? Furthermore, why I am seeing news articles about Vogel after leaving a team that is currently in the playoffs to coach a 24 win team without talent issues? What am I missing about this amazing coaching job? Looking at the results on paper, we truly got the better coach, but in your measurement Vogel's tank job weighs more. I'm just not understanding the logic.

All that being said, if you go through my older posts you can see me vocally complaining about Hornacek's substitution patterns and his treatment of Frank. However, I understand that it is challenging to have a solid rotation with a roster full of flawed players (Noah obviously included). I honestly don't think he could have gotten anymore out of this roster given the circumstances (injuries, poor planning in the off-season, a lottery pick clearly not ready for the NBA), especially when the team was on track for the high 30s in wins prior to KP's season ending injury.


Poor point guard play has bedeviled several teams. I am surprised at how Orlando has struggled considering I hold Vogel in high regard. Also, while I like Fournier in this league, Vucevic is basically the same as Kanter and Gordon has missed a fair share of games. The depth is poor on the squad and only recently has Mario come on at all giving them better spacing.

To your list of tank teams, the difference between those teams and ours, IMO, is the minutes played. For example, the Mavs have limited playing time on Dirk (for obvious reasons) and have given the keys entirely to Smith. Smith has several advanced stats looking bad this season (particularly in the early going) but they are allowing him and other players to develop on the big stage.

FWIW I am not suggesting that you are absolving Jeff for anything, I probably view Jeff more positively overall. If we had a team like the Lakers or Bucks, I think Jeff would have been able to really show his coaching prowess. Jeff would actually make a terrific coach for the Bucks if only he had a connection there.

Jeffs biggest weakness coming from PHX is how he would handle players. Those issues for me are why I think his time here is best over.
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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#38 » by Yin Porzingod » Fri Apr 6, 2018 2:22 am

Like I've been saying get rid of Hornacek and promote Herb Williams! :pray: :D
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Re: Courtney Lee defends Jeff Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries. per newsday 

Post#39 » by nedleeds » Fri Apr 6, 2018 3:17 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
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Marty McFly wrote:it's not that assuring that simmons agrees with the talking points some of us have been making, but he's right.


We signed Lee when we were trying to appease Melo and place veteran talent around him like he wanted.


I tried to appease Melo at Thanksgiving when I offered to butter his yams, but he went straight for the biscuits and gravy and then loaded up on a truckload of pie.

Truck dat pieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
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Re: Lee defends Hornacek, blames Knicks’ woes on injuries 

Post#40 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 6, 2018 4:40 am

Dr. Detfink wrote:Courtney Lee has been shopped but again, NO ONE takes those kind of contracts anymore. Why oh why would you spend $12M/season on a guy who is probably 7th best player on a team like the Rockets, Warriors...not even the Sixers wanted him.

If teams turned their nose up at GM Scott Perry asking for a half eaten hot dog & second rounder for an expiring contract, Kyle O'Quinn $4M (has a player option)...you KNOW the Knicks' so-called assets outside of KP are worthless.

NO ONE wants Lee. NO ONE wants O'Quinn. No one wants the Knicks' garbage.

Again, these players PREVENT you from a top 5 lottery draft pick. They don't make you into contenders. They keep you mired in the purgatory of mediocrity non-playoff team.


Cleveland would take Lee. That is if Lebron said so. And then he'd leave. Shabazz Napier 2.0 :lol:
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