ImageImageImageImageImage

Frank Ntilikina - Sophomore Year

Moderators: moocow007, magnumt, Capn'O, K-DOT, GONYK, NoLayupRule, Thugger HBC, Jeff Van Gully, j4remi, Thorn, King of Canada, mpharris36, mrpoetryNmotion, Deeeez Knicks

Dantares
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,332
And1: 1,760
Joined: Oct 08, 2003

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#161 » by Dantares » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:56 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
PeoplesChamp wrote:
eagle54 wrote:
Do you think warriors won without good Defense ? Klay Green and now even KD are very good defender too. Like you say, not a problem if frank is not a 25 ppg guy, KP and another guys could be the first option. Frank could be 3rd or 4th and with his mentality he can easily accept that so not future ego's war it's perfect for us to build.


KD plays defense AND scores 26 ppg. Klay plays defense AND scores 20 ppg as the third offensive option.

Draymond is a defensive guy who gets to all-star games, but, he's like that Tupac song "You aint shyt without your homeboys"

Frank will probably never average 20 ppg. So ok, he looks promising defensively. But this league doesn't put a premium on defense like it used to. Think about it. A Mike D'Antoni team might win the championship.


The other thing that needs to be mentioned, cuz you'll probably get killed on this post, is we're talking about the 8th pick in a draft. Not 20th, not 30th.....The 8th.

Think of our favorite pure defenders. Tony Allen, Danny Green, guys who are fan favorites. You need guys like that but you wouldn't draft them with an 8th pick so it's not simply an argument about valueing defense. I LOVE defense and because I love defense, I would naturally love Frank........But that doesn't mean that I like him at the 8th pick. And then as a secondary argument even given the low offensive output individually, what's the secondary skill? Ok he'll never be a top scorer and he defends. Does he project as an elite passer, elite rebounder?

For me it's about opportunity cost. Could we have found a running mate for KP at picck 8 and then simply found a defensive role player in a future draft where we had a lower pick? So I think people don't understand the true argument. Signing Renaldo Balkman made sense. But it made sense with our second rounder that year, while there were better options where he was drafted. It'd be like signing Zhair Smith with our 9th pick this yr when we could've just traded down and still signed him at pick 15. It's about value at the pick slot.


With all that said, it is what it is, he's a knick. It did look like toward the end he started getting more confident. I think he recently had a game where he took 16 shots, which is all I've been asking him to do all yr. And all my critics asked "oh well you want him just jacking up bad shots". Well guess what? He scored at a 53%clip that night. The night he took 16 shots. So point is, acting confident and being aggressive doesn't necessarily mean inefficient, it means confident and aggressive. Let's see what he does in the off-season to build more confidence. I view him as a long term piece. Hopefully he continues to get aggressive. I don't need him to be a 20pt scorer but I don't think it's crazy to be a 13pt scorer at some point. That'd be good


tony Allen made 6 all defensive teams. Are there really 8 players in tony Allen's draft class better than tony allen?

Were there 8 players in Bruce Bowen draft class better than Bruce bowen?

Were there 8 players in Michael cooper' s draft class better than Michael cooper?

What about Rodman during his bulls days who actually did have a jumpshot but refused to shoot the ball and always had a modest scoring total every year.

To me Frank went where he belongs lower half top 10 pick based on his potential as a defensive stopper. But he has more offensive potential than all the guys I listed so he could exceed expectations.
"No protectors here. No Lanterns. No Kryptonian. This world will fall like all the others."

Image
User avatar
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 27,360
And1: 13,689
Joined: Jul 12, 2009
Location: Free Candy Van
 

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#162 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:46 pm

Dantares wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
PeoplesChamp wrote:
KD plays defense AND scores 26 ppg. Klay plays defense AND scores 20 ppg as the third offensive option.

Draymond is a defensive guy who gets to all-star games, but, he's like that Tupac song "You aint shyt without your homeboys"

Frank will probably never average 20 ppg. So ok, he looks promising defensively. But this league doesn't put a premium on defense like it used to. Think about it. A Mike D'Antoni team might win the championship.


The other thing that needs to be mentioned, cuz you'll probably get killed on this post, is we're talking about the 8th pick in a draft. Not 20th, not 30th.....The 8th.

Think of our favorite pure defenders. Tony Allen, Danny Green, guys who are fan favorites. You need guys like that but you wouldn't draft them with an 8th pick so it's not simply an argument about valueing defense. I LOVE defense and because I love defense, I would naturally love Frank........But that doesn't mean that I like him at the 8th pick. And then as a secondary argument even given the low offensive output individually, what's the secondary skill? Ok he'll never be a top scorer and he defends. Does he project as an elite passer, elite rebounder?

For me it's about opportunity cost. Could we have found a running mate for KP at picck 8 and then simply found a defensive role player in a future draft where we had a lower pick? So I think people don't understand the true argument. Signing Renaldo Balkman made sense. But it made sense with our second rounder that year, while there were better options where he was drafted. It'd be like signing Zhair Smith with our 9th pick this yr when we could've just traded down and still signed him at pick 15. It's about value at the pick slot.


With all that said, it is what it is, he's a knick. It did look like toward the end he started getting more confident. I think he recently had a game where he took 16 shots, which is all I've been asking him to do all yr. And all my critics asked "oh well you want him just jacking up bad shots". Well guess what? He scored at a 53%clip that night. The night he took 16 shots. So point is, acting confident and being aggressive doesn't necessarily mean inefficient, it means confident and aggressive. Let's see what he does in the off-season to build more confidence. I view him as a long term piece. Hopefully he continues to get aggressive. I don't need him to be a 20pt scorer but I don't think it's crazy to be a 13pt scorer at some point. That'd be good


tony Allen made 6 all defensive teams. Are there really 8 players in tony Allen's draft class better than tony allen?

Were there 8 players in Bruce Bowen draft class better than Bruce bowen?

Were there 8 players in Michael cooper' s draft class better than Michael cooper?

What about Rodman during his bulls days who actually did have a jumpshot but refused to shoot the ball and always had a modest scoring total every year.

To me Frank went where he belongs lower half top 10 pick based on his potential as a defensive stopper. But he has more offensive potential than all the guys I listed so he could exceed expectations.


Good post. Only thing I'd amend is Cooper was fairly capable on offense as well.
ImageI See Wings, Wings Everywhere!!!!Image
User avatar
poeman
General Manager
Posts: 9,222
And1: 6,378
Joined: May 21, 2008
         

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#163 » by poeman » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:27 pm

Can someone introduce Frank to Kobe?

Give him some Mamba mentality fam...
User avatar
shmeakone
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,561
And1: 902
Joined: Mar 26, 2012
Contact:

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#164 » by shmeakone » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:34 pm

This season hardly is a testament to what kind of player he will be in 2-4 years. His offensive game will look completely different as he gains comfort and finds his niche. One thing we can gauge is his effort level and attitude he brings to the game and to get better, which is top notch. He’s hungry, he wants to get better. He’s got the tools, but we’ll have to be patient and I hope we will be. History says we won’t be, I hope I’m wrong.
Image
Through thick & thin.. still #KnicksTape

Bring back Ill Will & Gallo!
User avatar
Grinditout
General Manager
Posts: 9,625
And1: 1,221
Joined: Aug 04, 2006

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#165 » by Grinditout » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:33 am

Another note, remember when the season started and a lot of us were already worried he was injury prone. He played 78 games this season...
User avatar
eagle54
Senior
Posts: 670
And1: 337
Joined: Sep 09, 2016
Location: France
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#166 » by eagle54 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:42 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
The other thing that needs to be mentioned, cuz you'll probably get killed on this post, is we're talking about the 8th pick in a draft. Not 20th, not 30th.....The 8th.


The 8th pick is not a a top 3, some guys when they said "it's a 8th pick" give impression it's a first pick... Loot at the last 8th pick of the last two decades., give me the name of last guy who became AS in 8th pick. Gay in 2006.. If frank is an elite defender with 15 ppg so you could be happy with that.
Thugger HBC
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 45,126
And1: 12,687
Joined: Jan 14, 2011
Location: Defense+efficient offense=titles...what do you have?
       

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#167 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:04 pm

eagle54 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
The other thing that needs to be mentioned, cuz you'll probably get killed on this post, is we're talking about the 8th pick in a draft. Not 20th, not 30th.....The 8th.


The 8th pick is not a a top 3, some guys when they said "it's a 8th pick" give impression it's a first pick... Loot at the last 8th pick of the last two decades., give me the name of last guy who became AS in 8th pick. Gay in 2006.. If frank is an elite defender with 15 ppg so you could be happy with that.

Sadly, quite a few franchises probably take this same view. The draft has actually proven there are possible all-star caliber players that could be picked at the 8th spot.

If there weren't, then why does the 9th spot have so many? Because execs think like fans, just draft whatever after all the glitzy names are gone.

Since 2009
DeRozan 9th 2009

This one is easily the Knicks worst draft in a long time since they had plenty of young forwards and their guards were ass and drafted another forward.

Gordon Hayward 9th (mention Paul George 10th same draft) 2010
Kemba walker 9th (Klay Thompson mention @ 11 same draft) 2011
Andre drummond 9th 2012

Now I'm not saying the Knicks made a bad pick with Frank at 8, but if all-star caliber play is the criteria of the pick, and based on this years rookie class they certainly did.

All star caliber talent was available at the 8th spot.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

The ...02% of the fanbse be like...http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1542565&start=140#start_here
User avatar
eagle54
Senior
Posts: 670
And1: 337
Joined: Sep 09, 2016
Location: France
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#168 » by eagle54 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:20 pm

I never said they are no AS at 8, but when you pick after a top 5 or even maybe a top 3 it's scouting the more important thing. So when a guy said "it's a 8th pick" as if necessarily you need to have an AS with this pick it's wrong. If you pick top 3 yes the expetation are high and it's AS at least but not with a 8th pick.

Clearly for me, expetation between a top 3 (or maybe top 5) and top 8-10 is totally, totally, different. but between an 8 or 10 pick, there are no difference.

After this year, the only guy I could regret it's mitchell, but it's the only one (every day I passed on smith again, clearly not the good profil for us). I always confident for Frank, I saw some flashes and good thing about him and he just need to develop.
maybe not a future AS but all defensive nba teams and more important, a very good piece next to KP and a important profil to create a new culture here (defense, unselfish, gym rat, high IQ BB).
Nazrmohamed
Analyst
Posts: 3,268
And1: 1,406
Joined: May 16, 2013
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#169 » by Nazrmohamed » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:01 pm

eagle54 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
The other thing that needs to be mentioned, cuz you'll probably get killed on this post, is we're talking about the 8th pick in a draft. Not 20th, not 30th.....The 8th.


The 8th pick is not a a top 3, some guys when they said "it's a 8th pick" give impression it's a first pick... Loot at the last 8th pick of the last two decades., give me the name of last guy who became AS in 8th pick. Gay in 2006.. If frank is an elite defender with 15 ppg so you could be happy with that.


I think I'd be very happy with that. But mind you, 15pts consistently STILL requires ALOT more aggression than we've seen. What we're seeing is indicative of topping out around 10-12 and unless the nba reverts back to a 90s style, which I loved, there's not too many teams winning with point guards averaging 12 and being good defenders. That's Patrick Beverley numbers and it'd require us to find still a SG that's about as prolific as a Harden or top 5 SG. Is Mikal that player even if we get him or is he himself more a high end complimentary SG at this level?

So Frank isn't just about Frank. Frank is about what my next move must be, now that that's who he is. Other thing I mentioned was passing too. Frank's a smart passer, sometimes makes errors but overall makes the right play. But it's more caretaker in nature. Dump the ball inside, wait for a guy to come off a route type stuff. He's not breaking down defenses and creating open looks, so now does your SG have to be a playmaker? Do you start entertaining playing Frank off ball with that your of PG. We saw it have some success with Burke but then maybe you SHOULD go and grab a Young/Sexton go to PG as our future.

More questions than answers
CouesPalazzetto
Ballboy
Posts: 6
And1: 5
Joined: Nov 07, 2017

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#170 » by CouesPalazzetto » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:50 pm

:-D
Nazrmohamed wrote:Frank's a smart passer, sometimes makes errors but overall makes the right play. But it's more caretaker in nature. Dump the ball inside, wait for a guy to come off a route type stuff.

thb, it seems like you're watching Frank but you aren't seeing Frank. :)
User avatar
Dr. Detfink
RealGM
Posts: 17,886
And1: 4,138
Joined: Dec 31, 2005
Location: NYC
Contact:
       

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#171 » by Dr. Detfink » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:18 pm

I think some of the posters in this thread aren't understand in the concept of playmaker. Kemba Walker hasn't done squat in Carolina despite having the green light to do whatever he wants. Gordon Hayward is a product of a system not an individual player.

Frank Ntilikina has played on a rudderless ship for his rookie season. Once the Knicks get a coach who will hold players accountable for the dumbest stuff on defense...you'll see his production rise.
BowlRips
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,167
And1: 1,497
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#172 » by BowlRips » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:45 pm

When you watch Jrue Holiday the other night.. you see that the perfect comp for Frank.. Defensive bulldog, can run the point or play off ball, playmaker and picks spots to score.
With seasoning that makes perfect sense to me
GRIZZLIES
C : Zach Collins | Larry Nance
PF: Nik Mirotic | Hamidou Diallo | Parsons |
SF: Lebron James | Jonathan Simmons | McGruber
SG: JJ Redick | Tim Hardaway | Mclemore
PG: Jeff Teague| Jevon Carter
jvsimonetti0514
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,611
And1: 907
Joined: Dec 22, 2015
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#173 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
eagle54 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
The other thing that needs to be mentioned, cuz you'll probably get killed on this post, is we're talking about the 8th pick in a draft. Not 20th, not 30th.....The 8th.


The 8th pick is not a a top 3, some guys when they said "it's a 8th pick" give impression it's a first pick... Loot at the last 8th pick of the last two decades., give me the name of last guy who became AS in 8th pick. Gay in 2006.. If frank is an elite defender with 15 ppg so you could be happy with that.


I think I'd be very happy with that. But mind you, 15pts consistently STILL requires ALOT more aggression than we've seen. What we're seeing is indicative of topping out around 10-12 and unless the nba reverts back to a 90s style, which I loved, there's not too many teams winning with point guards averaging 12 and being good defenders. That's Patrick Beverley numbers and it'd require us to find still a SG that's about as prolific as a Harden or top 5 SG. Is Mikal that player even if we get him or is he himself more a high end complimentary SG at this level?

So Frank isn't just about Frank. Frank is about what my next move must be, now that that's who he is. Other thing I mentioned was passing too. Frank's a smart passer, sometimes makes errors but overall makes the right play. But it's more caretaker in nature. Dump the ball inside, wait for a guy to come off a route type stuff. He's not breaking down defenses and creating open looks, so now does your SG have to be a playmaker? Do you start entertaining playing Frank off ball with that your of PG. We saw it have some success with Burke but then maybe you SHOULD go and grab a Young/Sexton go to PG as our future.

More questions than answers


I don't think we should make any decisions based on Frank being here. He hasn't shown enough offensively to hold a spot in the starting line up for him. If you think Sexton or Young has a chance to be an all star you draft them. The Hornets had this same situation when it came to drafting Kemba Walker. They had just drafted another guard just like us but couldn't pass up Kemba's talent and that worked out pretty well. At least we know Frank plays well besides another guard so it won't be a total waste. A few other posters have compared Frank to Batum and his career averages are 12 pt 5 rpg and 3.5 apg and he was the 5th starter on a playoff team.
Kinglee
Analyst
Posts: 3,010
And1: 1,176
Joined: Feb 20, 2017

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#174 » by Kinglee » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:06 pm

BowlRips wrote:When you watch Jrue Holiday the other night.. you see that the perfect comp for Frank.. Defensive bulldog, can run the point or play off ball, playmaker and picks spots to score.
With seasoning that makes perfect sense to me


Holiday and Frank are not similar and if I recall these guys didn't want Holiday, so why would y'all want a "similar" player?
BowlRips
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,167
And1: 1,497
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#175 » by BowlRips » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:13 pm

Kinglee wrote:
BowlRips wrote:When you watch Jrue Holiday the other night.. you see that the perfect comp for Frank.. Defensive bulldog, can run the point or play off ball, playmaker and picks spots to score.
With seasoning that makes perfect sense to me


Holiday and Frank are not similar and if I recall these guys didn't want Holiday, so why would y'all want a "similar" player?


Hmmm. Not wanting holiday for 4 years 100 million at this stage of the rebuild is different than not wanting Frank to develop into a 100mil dollar player
GRIZZLIES
C : Zach Collins | Larry Nance
PF: Nik Mirotic | Hamidou Diallo | Parsons |
SF: Lebron James | Jonathan Simmons | McGruber
SG: JJ Redick | Tim Hardaway | Mclemore
PG: Jeff Teague| Jevon Carter
Kinglee
Analyst
Posts: 3,010
And1: 1,176
Joined: Feb 20, 2017

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#176 » by Kinglee » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:22 pm

BowlRips wrote:
Kinglee wrote:
BowlRips wrote:When you watch Jrue Holiday the other night.. you see that the perfect comp for Frank.. Defensive bulldog, can run the point or play off ball, playmaker and picks spots to score.
With seasoning that makes perfect sense to me


Holiday and Frank are not similar and if I recall these guys didn't want Holiday, so why would y'all want a "similar" player?


Hmmm. Not wanting holiday for 4 years 100 million at this stage of the rebuild is different than not wanting Frank to develop into a 100mil dollar player


Holiday was the number 1 PG in his class and was a superior talent. Why do you think these two guys are similar? Honestly, where is the similarities?
BowlRips
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,167
And1: 1,497
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#177 » by BowlRips » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:26 pm

Kinglee wrote:
BowlRips wrote:
Kinglee wrote:
Holiday and Frank are not similar and if I recall these guys didn't want Holiday, so why would y'all want a "similar" player?


Hmmm. Not wanting holiday for 4 years 100 million at this stage of the rebuild is different than not wanting Frank to develop into a 100mil dollar player


Holiday was the number 1 PG in his class and was a superior talent. Why do you think these two guys are similar? Honestly, where is the similarities?


Big defensive guard with playmaking ability?
GRIZZLIES
C : Zach Collins | Larry Nance
PF: Nik Mirotic | Hamidou Diallo | Parsons |
SF: Lebron James | Jonathan Simmons | McGruber
SG: JJ Redick | Tim Hardaway | Mclemore
PG: Jeff Teague| Jevon Carter
Kinglee
Analyst
Posts: 3,010
And1: 1,176
Joined: Feb 20, 2017

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#178 » by Kinglee » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:40 pm

BowlRips wrote:
Kinglee wrote:
BowlRips wrote:
Hmmm. Not wanting holiday for 4 years 100 million at this stage of the rebuild is different than not wanting Frank to develop into a 100mil dollar player


Holiday was the number 1 PG in his class and was a superior talent. Why do you think these two guys are similar? Honestly, where is the similarities?


Big defensive guard with playmaking ability?


Frank hasn't shown playmaking ability and isn't Holiday a scorer as well? Or is it that we are just hoping for a Frank to become that type of Player? I personally think current Livingston is a better comparison
BowlRips
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,167
And1: 1,497
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
     

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#179 » by BowlRips » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:43 pm

Kinglee wrote:
BowlRips wrote:
Kinglee wrote:
Holiday was the number 1 PG in his class and was a superior talent. Why do you think these two guys are similar? Honestly, where is the similarities?


Big defensive guard with playmaking ability?


Frank hasn't shown playmaking ability and isn't Holiday a scorer as well? Or is it that we are just hoping for a Frank to become that type of Player? I personally think current Livingston is a better comparison


optimistically projecting is what I'd call it.
Livingston isn't a terrible comp as well, but I think Frank can develop a better long range shot.
GRIZZLIES
C : Zach Collins | Larry Nance
PF: Nik Mirotic | Hamidou Diallo | Parsons |
SF: Lebron James | Jonathan Simmons | McGruber
SG: JJ Redick | Tim Hardaway | Mclemore
PG: Jeff Teague| Jevon Carter
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 23,464
And1: 15,204
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: WINGSPANDIA

Re: Frank Ntilikina - Rookie Year 

Post#180 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:57 pm

I like this thread. It's like the slow moving version of all the arguments about Frank that happened in every game thread.

Return to New York Knicks