OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

[Sark]

Rodman before he got traded for Will Perdue, was a complete head case, racking up technical fouls at a rate that Draymond would be jealous of. That was when his wife left him and took his daughter, and he turned to the tattoos, piercings, and dyed hair. He was still a good rebounder, but a total liability on offense. Hard to say he was an asset, since there wasn't another team in the league that would even think of taking him.

[blueNorange]

best player is simply a generation thing and it shows in this thread.

[spree8]

if lebron had a pippen, he'd have more than 3 titles on his resume. If he can beat this warriors team, I'll call him the GOAT. if not he'll still be number 2.

he had Wade... 3rd best sg all time.

and if they had played together for more of wades prime they would have won more. they won two titles in 4 years. scottie and michael won 6 in 12.

Uhh, they lost to the old ass Mavs their 1st year. Then they lost to the Spurs before Kawhi was even Kawhi, and Duncan was 137 years old. They would’ve lost twice to them had Pop not outcoached himself with one simple move (taking Duncan out during a FT and giving up the ORB to Miami).

Them beating a young Thunder squad and getting thru a weak broken down East in a lockout year is unimpressive. Pretty sure every star player from all the Eastern teams was hurt too (Dwight, Stat, DRose, etc).

MJ’s competition in the 90’s blows Lebron’s out the water... can’t forget the rules being tougher too.

[Billy Goat]

So much less contact now it's really hard to compare- the game looks like two different sports when you go back and watch the league in the 90's. But if you take that out of it it's hard not to (pardon the pun) crown Lebron as he does more than Michael and is still at his peak at age 33 with no real signs of slowing down. Michael even in his last two championship seasons had significantly slowed down. He was totally washed on the Wizards something that's hard to imagine Lebron ever being.

[spree8]

So much less contact now it's really hard to compare- the game looks like two different sports when you go back and watch the league in the 90's. But if you take that out of it it's hard not to (pardon the pun) crown Lebron has he does more than Michael and is still at his peak at age 33 with no real signs of slowing down.

What more does he do? Average 1 rebound and 1.5 assists more in his career? Yea I’ll take more points, better defense, and getting me more championships against tougher competition and tougher rules.

[Billy Goat]

So much less contact now it's really hard to compare- the game looks like two different sports when you go back and watch the league in the 90's. But if you take that out of it it's hard not to (pardon the pun) crown Lebron has he does more than Michael and is still at his peak at age 33 with no real signs of slowing down.

What more does he do? Average 1 rebound and 1.5 assists more in his career? Yea I’ll take more points, better defense, and getting me more championships against tougher competition and tougher rules.

More efficient shooter and a better rebounder and passer. Like I said initially the rules are totally different so it's hard to compare. But Lebron is still a machine with zero signs of slowing down. MJ's peak wasnt as long as Lebrons will be.

[Marty McFly]

So much less contact now it's really hard to compare- the game looks like two different sports when you go back and watch the league in the 90's. But if you take that out of it it's hard not to (pardon the pun) crown Lebron as he does more than Michael and is still at his peak at age 33 with no real signs of slowing down. Michael even in his last two championship seasons had significantly slowed down. He was totally washed on the Wizards something that's hard to imagine Lebron ever being.

lebron is magic Johnson in karl malone's body. but lebron wouldn't have been able to hang in the 90's.

michael jordan playing in a 3pt driven league would most certainly been a better three point shooter than he was considering his competitiveness. who knows how much better his statistical output would have looked.

it's a different game, but i don't know how anyone can say such and such is better because of it. it's one of the dumber arguments I've ever heard.

[spree8]

So much less contact now it's really hard to compare- the game looks like two different sports when you go back and watch the league in the 90's. But if you take that out of it it's hard not to (pardon the pun) crown Lebron has he does more than Michael and is still at his peak at age 33 with no real signs of slowing down.

What more does he do? Average 1 rebound and 1.5 assists more in his career? Yea I’ll take more points, better defense, and getting me more championships against tougher competition and tougher rules.

More efficient shooter and a better rebounder and passer. Like I said initially the rules are totally different so it's hard to compare. But Lebron is still a machine with zero signs of slowing down. MJ's peak wasnt as long as Lebrons will be.

Marginally more efficient... TS% discrepancy is like 1%. 1 rebound per game difference too. There’s a helluva lot more to the game than that, and Lebron doesn’t compare to MJ all things considered. Idc about peak... we know MJ left for baseball and retired earlier... not because of slowing down.

[Billy Goat]

What more does he do? Average 1 rebound and 1.5 assists more in his career? Yea I’ll take more points, better defense, and getting me more championships against tougher competition and tougher rules.

More efficient shooter and a better rebounder and passer. Like I said initially the rules are totally different so it's hard to compare. But Lebron is still a machine with zero signs of slowing down. MJ's peak wasnt as long as Lebrons will be.

Marginally more efficient... TS% discrepancy is like 1%. 1 rebound per game difference too. There’s a helluva lot more to the game than that, and Lebron doesn’t compare to MJ all things considered. Idc about peak... we know MJ left for baseball and retired earlier... not because of slowing down.

MJ retiring early is on him ( to play baseball of all things). I dont get why we handicap his career because of it. People also seem to easily forget the Magic series where he didnt really play all that well and give him a pass because he came back late in the season. If Lebron had done this and played poorly he would have gotten skewered.

I love Jordan and he was easily the best player I had ever seen but what Lebron is doing is incredible. From a likeability and realness standpoint its MJ all the way too...I just cant deny that impact Lebron is having, it's insane.

[spree8]

More efficient shooter and a better rebounder and passer. Like I said initially the rules are totally different so it's hard to compare. But Lebron is still a machine with zero signs of slowing down. MJ's peak wasnt as long as Lebrons will be.

Marginally more efficient... TS% discrepancy is like 1%. 1 rebound per game difference too. There’s a helluva lot more to the game than that, and Lebron doesn’t compare to MJ all things considered. Idc about peak... we know MJ left for baseball and retired earlier... not because of slowing down.

MJ retiring early is on him ( to play baseball of all things). I dont get why we handicap his career because of it. People also seem to easily forget the Magic series where he didnt really play all that well and give him a pass because he came back late in the season. If Lebron had done this and played poorly he would have gotten skewered.

I love Jordan and he was easily the best player I had ever seen but what Lebron is doing is incredible. From a likeability on realness standpoint its MJ all the way too...I just cant deny that impact Lebron is having, it's insane.

Yea I’m just honestly not impressed because of Lebron’s competition. Imagine what Jordan would’ve done to that baby Celtics team. Lebron was beaten by the Magic too, but with Dwight Howard, Hedo, and Jameer... not Shaq, Penny, and Horace. I do give MJ a pass tho... as every body mostly does and should... no training camp, missing half the year, and clearly not the same, what could you expect going against that level of comp?

Lebron has been defeated by pretty weak teams and has won in unimpressive ways (Draymond suspension, lockout year/major injuries, Spurs/Pop blowing a sure win)... I just can’t get around that compared to MJ running thru a gauntlet in the East and Finals every year.

[Daaaarryyl]

If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm picking Lebron.


Yet, If I had a "must win" game, I'm picking MJ without giving it much thought.

[Sark]

If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm picking Lebron.


Yet, I had a "must win" game, I'm picking MJ without giving it much thought.

You start a team from scratch with Lebron, and he leaves as soon as he can if you don't get multiple top stars as well.

[Daaaarryyl]

people bringing up lebron playing with wade/bosh LOL

jordan played with pippen, rodman, kukoc ... players who were excellent players. lets not make as if it jordan had to carry his team on his back like lebron.

Rodman was 34, and Kukoc was never even an All-Star

Kukoc was a solid player but overrated IMO, so I agree there.


But Rodman was a STUD when he wanted to play (which he did playing with MJ).


A STUD. 34 or whatever, his insane rebounding numbers HURT him IMO because they seemed to overshadow the defense he played.


Pippen was an awesome player and would have been an all time underrated guy had he not won championships with one of the biggest stars in the history of pro sports.

He could play PG, like legit, could start the break, facilitate, defend, and then he could defend a big and score from inside and out.

And when I say "defend" I mean defensive player of the year quality.


MJ had some nice help 2 to 4 on the roster. After that, yeah the roster was either overrated (Kukoc, Kerr) or had decent but unspectacular role players (Harper/BJ/Grant/Cartwright).



Lebron with a Pippen and a Rodman plus the overrated types I mentioned plus role types wins a few championships easily IMO.

[Daaaarryyl]

Rodman before he got traded for Will Perdue, was a complete head case, racking up technical fouls at a rate that Draymond would be jealous of. That was when his wife left him and took his daughter, and he turned to the tattoos, piercings, and dyed hair. He was still a good rebounder, but a total liability on offense. Hard to say he was an asset, since there wasn't another team in the league that would even think of taking him.

Rodman was a headcase before the trade to Chicago.

True, but not relevant in this discussion.


His wife left him and took his daughter. He then dyed his hair and got tattoos.


True, but not relevant in this discussion.



"Hard to say he was an asset"


OK, I'm done with this poster............

[DOT]

i mean, in terms of pure talent, there's not much separating mj, kareem, and lebron

lebron will never be the goat, cause it's been ingrained in us that mj is the goat for the last ~20 years

there's equally good arguments for all 3, and equally dumb arguments for all 3

[Im Coming Home]

best player is simply a generation thing and it shows in this thread.

Nah, I was in my single digits when MJ was playing, and yet I know he's the GOAT.

[Billy Goat]

Rodman before he got traded for Will Perdue, was a complete head case, racking up technical fouls at a rate that Draymond would be jealous of. That was when his wife left him and took his daughter, and he turned to the tattoos, piercings, and dyed hair. He was still a good rebounder, but a total liability on offense. Hard to say he was an asset, since there wasn't another team in the league that would even think of taking him.

Rodman was a headcase before the trade to Chicago.

True, but not relevant in this discussion.


His wife left him and took his daughter. He then dyed his hair and got tattoos.


True, but not relevant in this discussion.



"Hard to say he was an asset"


OK, I'm done with this poster............

Rodman's time on the Spurs was a bit bizarre but he's inarguably the greatest rebounder ever and was obviously an asset.

[3toheadmelo]

[Knicksfan20]

It's a silly debate, but I will throw in my 2c anyway.

Jordan. Easily.

The only thing Bron has over Jordan is stats.

Jordan did his thing in an era of less spacing, way less 3 pt shooting, and significantly more physicality.

Jordan was also entirely capable of putting up the gaudy stats that Lebron does. He's every bit the all-around player.

Even without any of that though, Jordan is better simply because of his competitive fire. It dwarfs Bron's.

Sounds like the 90s would fit Lebrons play style even more. Lebron would have dominated the 80s-90s as well.

[robillionaire]

MJ.

If Lebron loses in the finals for a 6th time I don’t even want to even hear about it anymore. Stop making the comparison. If he wins we can discuss it further