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OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

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Who is the GOAT?

Michael Jordan
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76%
LeBron James
38
24%
 
Total votes: 157

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#681 » by 1999 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:28 pm

spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:

Mo Taylor and Malik Rose dude? 4real? There’s no garbage players like that now??? Oakley and Dale Davis would do very well in today’s league btw... defensive beasts who could crash the boards and hit the mid range J? Come on.


Before or after they foul out in 30 seconds?


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Weak. They couldn’t adjust? They’re not dumbasses.


Maybe you’re right but that’s exactly how I feel when ppl say today’s players (especially Lebron) couldn’t handle the physicality of the 90s like he wouldn’t dunk right on Malik Rose’s head. He’s BIGGER than Malik Rose! The versatile hybrids back then were Penny, Shaq, and Grant Hill off the top of my head mj not included. Now there are so many players that can do it all. James Harden comes to mind, KD, Lebron, AD... Paul George is a 6’9 guard/forward, where is his 90s peer? MJ being MJ is incredible but don’t you think those fadeaways would be a lot harder to pull off with Kawhi guarding him and not Bryon Russel?


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#682 » by Sark » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:31 pm

El Poochio wrote:Just put a random game on from 90s next to a random regular season game today and you will see the diff no need to delve into specific players



Again, you're talking to Knick fans. We watch terrible basketball every night, year after year.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#683 » by El Poochio » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:35 pm

spree8 wrote:
El Poochio wrote:Just put a random game on from 90s next to a random regular season game today and you will see the diff no need to delve into specific players



No defense 3 point shooting contest vs slow/methodical offense and hard nosed defense.


No defense?

Defense is the biggest reason Rockets challenged Ws to 7 games and were on the brink despite inferior talent

Just because some offensively challenged team isnt dominating titles doesnt mean defense is not played, advanced help defense and athleticism increase is why teams cant find space inside with post up play and have to resort to outside shooting, have you even watched Celtics this year and see their defense?

Its just the cliche that defense wins championships is broken and its hard for traditionalists to grasp fully embrace yet
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#684 » by El Poochio » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:39 pm

Sark wrote:
El Poochio wrote:Just put a random game on from 90s next to a random regular season game today and you will see the diff no need to delve into specific players



Again, you're talking to Knick fans. We watch terrible basketball every night, year after year.


Terrible in today's standards cuz its way behind the curve Knicks with Jack Lee Lance Kanter would beast in ancient times
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#685 » by spree8 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:01 am

1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
Before or after they foul out in 30 seconds?


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Weak. They couldn’t adjust? They’re not dumbasses.


Maybe you’re right but that’s exactly how I feel when ppl say today’s players (especially Lebron) couldn’t handle the physicality of the 90s like he wouldn’t dunk right on Malik Rose’s head. He’s BIGGER than Malik Rose! The versatile hybrids back then were Penny, Shaq, and Grant Hill off the top of my head mj not included. Now there are so many players that can do it all. James Harden comes to mind, KD, Lebron, AD... Paul George is a 6’9 guard/forward, where is his 90s peer? MJ being MJ is incredible but don’t you think those fadeaways would be a lot harder to pull off with Kawhi guarding him and not Bryon Russel?


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Lebron is barely physical enough to play in today’s league (look at all his weak flopping)... that’s how we know he couldn’t play in the 90’s... we’re not just making shyt up with nothing backing it.

MJ not versatile? Wow. The guy guarded pg’s, sg’s and sf’s. There were a helluva lot more than just Penny and GHill tho...just because players weren’t tasked with guarding more positions doesn’t mean they couldn’t in today’s league. I’m sure Pippen (one of the most versatile ever) could easily guard 4’s in today’s game.

Just B. Russell guarding Jordan? What about Gary Payton? What about Dumars? Starks? GWilkins? Majerle? Etc. What about the legendary defensive bigs who were protecting the rim while he was attacking it? Can’t forget about them.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#686 » by spree8 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:57 am

El Poochio wrote:
spree8 wrote:
El Poochio wrote:Just put a random game on from 90s next to a random regular season game today and you will see the diff no need to delve into specific players



No defense 3 point shooting contest vs slow/methodical offense and hard nosed defense.


No defense?

Defense is the biggest reason Rockets challenged Ws to 7 games and were on the brink despite inferior talent

Just because some offensively challenged team isnt dominating titles doesnt mean defense is not played, advanced help defense and athleticism increase is why teams cant find space inside with post up play and have to resort to outside shooting, have you even watched Celtics this year and see their defense?

Its just the cliche that defense wins championships is broken and its hard for traditionalists to grasp fully embrace yet



Bro that’s 1 team.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#687 » by Sark » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:49 am

El Poochio wrote:
Sark wrote:
El Poochio wrote:Just put a random game on from 90s next to a random regular season game today and you will see the diff no need to delve into specific players



Again, you're talking to Knick fans. We watch terrible basketball every night, year after year.


Terrible in today's standards cuz its way behind the curve Knicks with Jack Lee Lance Kanter would beast in ancient times



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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#688 » by nykballa2k4 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:27 am

1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
Before or after they foul out in 30 seconds?


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Weak. They couldn’t adjust? They’re not dumbasses.


Maybe you’re right but that’s exactly how I feel when ppl say today’s players (especially Lebron) couldn’t handle the physicality of the 90s like he wouldn’t dunk right on Malik Rose’s head. He’s BIGGER than Malik Rose! The versatile hybrids back then were Penny, Shaq, and Grant Hill off the top of my head mj not included. Now there are so many players that can do it all. James Harden comes to mind, KD, Lebron, AD... Paul George is a 6’9 guard/forward, where is his 90s peer? MJ being MJ is incredible but don’t you think those fadeaways would be a lot harder to pull off with Kawhi guarding him and not Bryon Russel?


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You realize that a) Dennis Rodman might have been the best wing defensive player of all time and b) Jordan got over the hump that included Rodman and a slew of other great defensive guys. There were defenders out there like Derrick McKie (spelling) obviously Charles Smith in his prime, Stacey Augmen etc.

Depending on when you want to look (early vs late 90's) you obviously have different big name guys. Drexler, Penny, Hill, Mullen, Miller, Allen, Rice, Jones, Pippen, Houston, Spree, Starks, Magic, Bird, Wilkins, Richmond - that's all pretty much off the cuff. Reggie Miller is one guy who I think in today's NBA would be an MVP candidate.

The best match up in my mind is LeBron vs Wilt
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#689 » by Greenie » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:32 am

When has Shaq ever been a hybrid...?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#690 » by DievsZingis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am

1999 wrote:Shooting 5-19 in a finals game is chucking though let’s call it what it is. Jordan was elite at all aspects of the game so at the very least he wasn’t a net negative. However my point is people are applying all the intangibles qualities of mj saying he would’ve overcame this juggernaut known as GS. Lebron “quit” but still had an objectively great series. And while KD outplayed Bron the last 2 games from an offensive standpoint, Lebron was the best player in the series. How would MJ have won? I’ve seen people make that argument. That’s what I’m debating against. Nobody can answer me when I ask who is the best player mj had to guard in the finals. Oh yeah, y’all expect Lebron to average a 35 point triple double while stopping KD and somehow making guys like jr play less dumb and make shots. It’s and impossible task. But Jordan could’ve done it... as if guarding Bryon Russel was soooo taxing...


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Sounds like you were born in 1999. You missed a great era, man. You tuned in and got what you expected, the best playing their best, not quitting because the odds were stacked against them.

The most beautiful, exciting thing in sports, UPSETS, wouldn't be possible if athletes had Lebron and this current crop of NBA players' thinking....."we're gonna lose anyway".

Jordan said he played hard in every game because there could be that one kid in the stands watching him for the first time...and this dude Lebron threw his hands up, at home, in a Finals game, and said nahh...I got next year.

Go watch his interview the day before game 4...it's eerie how he is setting up the narrative in it, to get people ready for the reasons he's going to lose.....watching in hindsight is even more amazing because it's clear as day the guy isn't gonna try.

This is the new phase Lebron is heading in...racking up stats, making excuses, and he knows he's young enough and disloyal enough to go to any team and win a couple of more championships...with that done he knows he will get the title of the best ever once he reaches 5, 6 championships, and his Finals losses won't count as a negative, they'll actually reflect positively on his career....he's brilliant.

I'm not gonna bother to reply any further, because your arguments are trash like most typical stat diggers, your arguements show you have no eye for the game....trashing Byron Russel for guarding Jordan but your boy leaves the guy who plays his position, who is trying to take his "throne", and takes a stroll with Stephen Curry in the most pivotal defensive play of the game.....your boy doesn't have the balls to say "I got this guy", that's the difference, not the number of shots he makes.

And he guards the worst offensive player on the opposing team on a nightly basis trying to play a Scottie Pippen style of free safety defense, but he sucks at it. He sticks Draymond against the Warriors and his bigs are constantly left on an island battling with GS wings and guards...pussy.

He had this guy guarding him with the game on the line.....

Image

but passes it to George Hills and Tristan Thompsons during crucial junctures in the game, but people wanna trash MJ for being guarded by these lunatics? :lol:

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#691 » by 1999 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:43 am

DievsZingis wrote:
1999 wrote:Shooting 5-19 in a finals game is chucking though let’s call it what it is. Jordan was elite at all aspects of the game so at the very least he wasn’t a net negative. However my point is people are applying all the intangibles qualities of mj saying he would’ve overcame this juggernaut known as GS. Lebron “quit” but still had an objectively great series. And while KD outplayed Bron the last 2 games from an offensive standpoint, Lebron was the best player in the series. How would MJ have won? I’ve seen people make that argument. That’s what I’m debating against. Nobody can answer me when I ask who is the best player mj had to guard in the finals. Oh yeah, y’all expect Lebron to average a 35 point triple double while stopping KD and somehow making guys like jr play less dumb and make shots. It’s and impossible task. But Jordan could’ve done it... as if guarding Bryon Russel was soooo taxing...


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Sounds like you were born in 1999. You missed a great era, man. You tuned in and got what you expected, the best playing their best, not quitting because the odds were stacked against them.

The most beautiful, exciting thing in sports, UPSETS, wouldn't be possible if athletes had Lebron and this current crop of NBA players' thinking....."we're gonna lose anyway".

Jordan said he played hard in every game because there could be that one kid in the stands watching him for the first time...and this dude Lebron threw his hands up, at home, in a Finals game, and said nahh...I got next year.

Go watch his interview the day before game 4...it's eerie how he is setting up the narrative in it, to get people ready for the reasons he's going to lose.....watching in hindsight is even more amazing because it's clear as day the guy isn't gonna try.

This is the new phase Lebron is heading in...racking up stats, making excuses, and he knows he's young enough and disloyal enough to go to any team and win a couple of more championships...with that done he knows he will get the title of the best ever once he reaches 5, 6 championships, and his Finals losses won't count as a negative, they'll actually reflect positively on his career....he's brilliant.

I'm not gonna bother to reply any further, because your arguments are trash like most typical stat diggers, your arguements show you have no eye for the game....trashing Byron Russel for guarding Jordan but your boy leaves the guy who plays his position, who is trying to take his "throne", and takes a stroll with Stephen Curry in the most pivotal defensive play of the game.....your boy doesn't have the balls to say "I got this guy", that's the difference, not the number of shots he makes.

And he guards the worst offensive player on the opposing team on a nightly basis trying to play a Scottie Pippen style of free safety defense, but he sucks at it. He sticks Draymond against the Warriors and his bigs are constantly left on an island battling with GS wings and guards...pussy.

He had this guy guarding him with the game on the line.....

Image

but passes it to George Hills and Tristan Thompsons during crucial junctures in the game, but you wanna trash MJ for being guarded by these lunatics? :lol:

Image


I watched the era and said what I said. I don’t see what’s hard to understand. Those lunatics (John Starks) were bagging groceries. It’s a different game. Back then players worked out, today they train. Back then you had to play man to man defense exclusively. Today you have zone defenses and more options due to the illegal defense rule being removed. I love the 90s for the competitive balance in the league. But you’re not getting me to admit they were more skilled then when Mark Jackson could literally walk up the court with his ass out, go into the post and back up for 10-15 seconds. After all this he would have the nerve to throw up an ugly hook/floater. I’m 31 years old by the way. “Oldheads is this your era?” - Killmonger.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#692 » by 1999 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:37 am

Greenie wrote:When has Shaq ever been a hybrid...?


Hybrid in the sense that there was no one like him. He could and did play a traditional role but nobody could move like him. There were players that broke the mold in the 90s but today’s players took the torch and ran with it.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#693 » by cooch2584 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:20 pm

DEF MJ
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#694 » by cooch2584 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:23 pm

LeBron could never handle the roughness back in the day. Hed be crying like a baby every time down the floor.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#695 » by cooch2584 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:36 pm

And MJ would average 50 a game, taking at least 25 fouls shots a game in this time in the NBA. I'm not a MJ or LeBron fan, I'm a Knicks fan since 1967. Yea I'm that old. Remember back in the day there was no hand ck foul, zone defense etc........
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#696 » by 1999 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:37 pm

cooch2584 wrote:And MJ would average 50 a game, taking at least 25 fouls shots a game in this time in the NBA. I'm not a MJ or LeBron fan, I'm a Knicks fan since 1967. Yea I'm that old. Remember back in the day there was no hand ck foul, zone defense etc........


Ok so let me ask you this. Is MJ the greatest of all time in your opinion? Forget about Lebron. What makes MJ better than the guys from your era (Jerry West, Wilt, Big Mac, Ice Man, Kareem)?


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#697 » by Lord Commander » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:48 pm

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#698 » by nykfan42 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:01 pm

1999 wrote:
DievsZingis wrote:
1999 wrote:Shooting 5-19 in a finals game is chucking though let’s call it what it is. Jordan was elite at all aspects of the game so at the very least he wasn’t a net negative. However my point is people are applying all the intangibles qualities of mj saying he would’ve overcame this juggernaut known as GS. Lebron “quit” but still had an objectively great series. And while KD outplayed Bron the last 2 games from an offensive standpoint, Lebron was the best player in the series. How would MJ have won? I’ve seen people make that argument. That’s what I’m debating against. Nobody can answer me when I ask who is the best player mj had to guard in the finals. Oh yeah, y’all expect Lebron to average a 35 point triple double while stopping KD and somehow making guys like jr play less dumb and make shots. It’s and impossible task. But Jordan could’ve done it... as if guarding Bryon Russel was soooo taxing...


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Sounds like you were born in 1999. You missed a great era, man. You tuned in and got what you expected, the best playing their best, not quitting because the odds were stacked against them.

The most beautiful, exciting thing in sports, UPSETS, wouldn't be possible if athletes had Lebron and this current crop of NBA players' thinking....."we're gonna lose anyway".

Jordan said he played hard in every game because there could be that one kid in the stands watching him for the first time...and this dude Lebron threw his hands up, at home, in a Finals game, and said nahh...I got next year.

Go watch his interview the day before game 4...it's eerie how he is setting up the narrative in it, to get people ready for the reasons he's going to lose.....watching in hindsight is even more amazing because it's clear as day the guy isn't gonna try.

This is the new phase Lebron is heading in...racking up stats, making excuses, and he knows he's young enough and disloyal enough to go to any team and win a couple of more championships...with that done he knows he will get the title of the best ever once he reaches 5, 6 championships, and his Finals losses won't count as a negative, they'll actually reflect positively on his career....he's brilliant.

I'm not gonna bother to reply any further, because your arguments are trash like most typical stat diggers, your arguements show you have no eye for the game....trashing Byron Russel for guarding Jordan but your boy leaves the guy who plays his position, who is trying to take his "throne", and takes a stroll with Stephen Curry in the most pivotal defensive play of the game.....your boy doesn't have the balls to say "I got this guy", that's the difference, not the number of shots he makes.

And he guards the worst offensive player on the opposing team on a nightly basis trying to play a Scottie Pippen style of free safety defense, but he sucks at it. He sticks Draymond against the Warriors and his bigs are constantly left on an island battling with GS wings and guards...pussy.

He had this guy guarding him with the game on the line.....

Image

but passes it to George Hills and Tristan Thompsons during crucial junctures in the game, but you wanna trash MJ for being guarded by these lunatics? :lol:

Image


I watched the era and said what I said. I don’t see what’s hard to understand. Those lunatics (John Starks) were bagging groceries. It’s a different game. Back then players worked out, today they train. Back then you had to play man to man defense exclusively. Today you have zone defenses and more options due to the illegal defense rule being removed. I love the 90s for the competitive balance in the league. But you’re not getting me to admit they were more skilled then when Mark Jackson could literally walk up the court with his ass out, go into the post and back up for 10-15 seconds. After all this he would have the nerve to throw up an ugly hook/floater. I’m 31 years old by the way. “Oldheads is this your era?” - Killmonger.


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Zone defense is lazy defense. John Starks was a hard nosed player that (despite 1994 Game 7) you loved to have on your team. Guys that play with real passion. I think Russell Westbrook is the only guy that plays hard ALL the time.

The game today puts too much emphasis on 3's. I'm sorry but it's a low percentage shot and only rare players like Steph Curry have unlimited range and can hit 3's from 5-6 ft behind the line consistently. Players in the 90's had better fundamentals. Today we have Centers being scrubs unless they shoot 3's. That position is basically obsolete now bc no one posts up anymore. The game is too fast because of the Warriors. The only way to beat them is by chucking 3's. It's impossible to slow them down bc Curry will literally pull up at almost half court and hit a 3. It's not a smart shot at all. This is a microcosm of why the NBA is just not of high quality anymore. The competition is virtually nothing. I don't enjoy watching games anymore because it's too predictable. Also the Knicks suck every year.

I guess my point is that the 90's was a significantly better product than the current NBA. MJ dominated the era but the battles of the Knicks/Bulls, Bulls/Pacers, Knicks/Heat, Knicks/Pacers, etc were so intense and fun to watch. You don't have that anymore because all the good players want to team up with each other. Back then they wanted to BEAT each other. I miss that.

LeBron is a quitter and he's the face of the NBA right now. THAT is truly pathetic.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#699 » by 1999 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:06 pm

Jordan 5-19 in a finals game. Kobe 6-24 in a game 7 against Boston. Both of those teams still won regardless of their performance. The narrative is that Kobe and MJ were such great leaders they emboldened/enabled their teammates to make plays down the stretch of those games. It’s almost as if personnel and coaching doesn’t factor into these concocted stories. I’ll listen when somebody says MJ was just a better basketball player; even though I have my own thoughts about the competition I will still listen. I stop listening when the narratives get ridiculous. You can’t MAKE guys make shots, you can’t rebound for them. It’s a total team effort including the coaching staff. Tyron Lue is not Phil Jackson. It’s night and day. MJ won because he was great, but he also didn’t win before Phil Jackson. Great players are great under any system. Role players need structure. Cavs don’t have that.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#700 » by nykfan42 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:14 pm

1999 wrote:Jordan 5-19 in a finals game. Kobe 6-24 in a game 7 against Boston. Both of those teams still won regardless of their performance. The narrative is that Kobe and MJ were such great leaders they emboldened/enabled their teammates to make plays down the stretch of those games. It’s almost as if personnel and coaching doesn’t factor into these concocted stories. I’ll listen when somebody says MJ was just a better basketball player; even though I have my own thoughts about the competition I will still listen. I stop listening when the narratives get ridiculous. You can’t MAKE guys make shots, you can’t rebound for them. It’s a total team effort including the coaching staff. Tyron Lue is not Phil Jackson. It’s night and day. MJ won because he was great, but he also didn’t win before Phil Jackson. Great players are great under any system. Role players need structure. Cavs don’t have that.


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I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous? What is ridiculous is bringing up the 5-19 performance repeatedly when LeBron has had several games where he is a non-factor because he quit.
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