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OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

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Who is the GOAT?

Michael Jordan
119
76%
LeBron James
38
24%
 
Total votes: 157

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#721 » by cooch2584 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:10 am

1999 wrote:
cooch2584 wrote:And MJ would average 50 a game, taking at least 25 fouls shots a game in this time in the NBA. I'm not a MJ or LeBron fan, I'm a Knicks fan since 1967. Yea I'm that old. Remember back in the day there was no hand ck foul, zone defense etc........


Ok so let me ask you this. Is MJ the greatest of all time in your opinion? Forget about Lebron. What makes MJ better than the guys from your era (Jerry West, Wilt, Big Mac, Ice Man, Kareem)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quotem saying MJ is better than Lebron ,just by my opinion bron would not be able to play then as MJ would now. There were so many great players back in the day. The league now is watered down offense and defense wise. Please tell me any players from the 80s and 90s that wouldn't thrive on the rules to back in the day compared to today .Theres dozens. But I still think MJ could play today and not Bron back in the day.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#722 » by cooch2584 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:16 am

MJ was from another era than West, Wilt,Kareem Iceman etc..... The NBA went thru so many stages from, lets say say 70s thru 90s and then now and the players evolved. Ya cant compare from the 70 to 80s thru 90s and above,whole different style and rule of the game from then. All I'm saying is Bron couldn't play then and Mj could play now. IMHO
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#723 » by cooch2584 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:18 am

I cant say and never will say whos the GOAT, its too broad of a decision. Too many factors,years, rules etc....
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#724 » by KennySkyWalker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:32 am

From the 80's on I'm going

1.MJ
2.Magic
3.Lebron
4.Hakeem
5.Too many to list
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#725 » by MadGrinch » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:41 am

NYKAL wrote:
Jonathan starks wrote:Regardless of where you stand on this debate, we can all agree the level of scrutiny Jordan faced pales comparison to the level of scrutiny Lebron faces today.


well, when you act as Coach, GM and Franchise player you are going to be more highly scrutinized. The whole narrative that he had a crap is a non argument because those guys are the ones he wanted. JR & Tristan got paid because of LB (another mans trash). Korver is there because of him. Hood and the others were bought in when he started his bitching and moaning. They gave him what he wanted and 4strait loses were the result.



but MJ did want to make decisions ...bulls brass wisely chose not to listen most of the time , he wanted the bulls to draft joe wolf instead of horace grant or scottie pippen , was absolutely against the trading of charles oakley for bill cartwright and when he didn't get his way would complain to the press about how his teammates weren't any good.

if jordan had any sway at all in those early years he wouldn't have much of a legacy because he wouldn't have won anything.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#726 » by spree8 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:26 am

MadGrinch wrote:
NYKAL wrote:
Jonathan starks wrote:Regardless of where you stand on this debate, we can all agree the level of scrutiny Jordan faced pales comparison to the level of scrutiny Lebron faces today.


well, when you act as Coach, GM and Franchise player you are going to be more highly scrutinized. The whole narrative that he had a crap is a non argument because those guys are the ones he wanted. JR & Tristan got paid because of LB (another mans trash). Korver is there because of him. Hood and the others were bought in when he started his bitching and moaning. They gave him what he wanted and 4strait loses were the result.



but MJ did want to make decisions ...bulls brass wisely chose not to listen most of the time , he wanted the bulls to draft joe wolf instead of horace grant or scottie pippen , was absolutely against the trading of charles oakley for bill cartwright and when he didn't get his way would complain to the press about how his teammates weren't any good.

if jordan had any sway at all in those early years he wouldn't have much of a legacy because he wouldn't have won anything.



Cmon man, you know a young Oakley coming off a 12 & 13 year with monster defense is better than a 31 year old Bill Cartwright putting up 11 & 4. I don’t blame MJ there.

And as far as Wolf... that was his guy from college at NC... I don’t blame him for that. Pippen was taken before the Bulls pick tho... they had to trade for him... not sure if Jordan knew if Pippen was out of reach or if he just wanted Wolf over him no matter what.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#727 » by MadGrinch » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:21 am

spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
NYKAL wrote:
well, when you act as Coach, GM and Franchise player you are going to be more highly scrutinized. The whole narrative that he had a crap is a non argument because those guys are the ones he wanted. JR & Tristan got paid because of LB (another mans trash). Korver is there because of him. Hood and the others were bought in when he started his bitching and moaning. They gave him what he wanted and 4strait loses were the result.



but MJ did want to make decisions ...bulls brass wisely chose not to listen most of the time , he wanted the bulls to draft joe wolf instead of horace grant or scottie pippen , was absolutely against the trading of charles oakley for bill cartwright and when he didn't get his way would complain to the press about how his teammates weren't any good.

if jordan had any sway at all in those early years he wouldn't have much of a legacy because he wouldn't have won anything.



Cmon man, you know a young Oakley coming off a 12 & 13 year with monster defense is better than a 31 year old Bill Cartwright putting up 11 & 4. I don’t blame MJ there.

And as far as Wolf... that was his guy from college at NC... I don’t blame him for that. Pippen was taken before the Bulls pick tho... they had to trade for him... not sure if Jordan knew if Pippen was out of reach or if he just wanted Wolf over him no matter what.


by any reasonable criteria Cartwright was still the better player at the time of the trade.

cartwright per 36 was 19 and 8 with a 17.8 PER vs oak's 13 and 13 and a 15.4 PER

joe wolf at center isnt winning any titles and neither oakley nor grant were capable of defending ewing in a 7 game series

and jordan wanted wolf no matter what , he wanted horace grant traded almost immediately after he was drafted .

if jordan got his way he'd the 90's version of dominque wilikins or allen iverson,
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#728 » by spree8 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:58 am

MadGrinch wrote:
spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:

but MJ did want to make decisions ...bulls brass wisely chose not to listen most of the time , he wanted the bulls to draft joe wolf instead of horace grant or scottie pippen , was absolutely against the trading of charles oakley for bill cartwright and when he didn't get his way would complain to the press about how his teammates weren't any good.

if jordan had any sway at all in those early years he wouldn't have much of a legacy because he wouldn't have won anything.



Cmon man, you know a young Oakley coming off a 12 & 13 year with monster defense is better than a 31 year old Bill Cartwright putting up 11 & 4. I don’t blame MJ there.

And as far as Wolf... that was his guy from college at NC... I don’t blame him for that. Pippen was taken before the Bulls pick tho... they had to trade for him... not sure if Jordan knew if Pippen was out of reach or if he just wanted Wolf over him no matter what.


by any reasonable criteria Cartwright was still the better player at the time of the trade.

cartwright per 36 was 19 and 8 with a 17.8 PER vs oak's 13 and 13 and a 15.4 PER

joe wolf at center isnt winning any titles and neither oakley nor grant were capable of defending ewing in a 7 game series

and jordan wanted wolf no matter what , he wanted horace grant traded almost immediately after he was drafted .

if jordan got his way he'd the 90's version of dominque wilikins or allen iverson,



No, Cartwright wasn’t the better player. Why are you using per 36 when Cartwright never played 36 mpg other than his rookie year? He put up 11 & 4 and then 12 & 6 in Chicago. And why are you acting like their PER was that big a difference? Cartwright had a 17.8 in NYK that year and then 11.0 in CHI the next year, while Oakley had 15.4 & 14.8 those years. Look at their rebounding rates... Oakley blows him outta the water. Same on defense. Cartwright was a true center, that’s about it. Talent wise, MJ had a right to be mad... plus that was his bff.

I dunno for sure if he wanted Wolf over Pippen tho since he was drafted earlier...haven’t been able to verify that, but either way, I don’t really blame the guy that much for wanting his NC guys with him. He was even pissed that Krause didn’t trade for his other Tar Heel buddy Walter Davis. That’s just how players are.

But to say he wouldn’t have any rings if he had Lebron’s freedom is kinda ridiculous. Oh and let’s give him a lil credit for stepping up when Krause wanted to trade Pippen for a rookie TMac... they didn’t, and they won another ring as a result.

Lebron was in situations where he had the freedom to join up with 2 other Franchise players/All Stars/Olympic players....twice. If MJ had the freedom to do that, I doubt he’d be focusing on the likes of Wolf and Davis, but more like Barkley and Ewing (even tho I don’t think his competitiveness would’ve allowed him to take the cheap way out despite rumors of him almost coming to NY, which was just leverage for more money).

Also, I never heard of MJ bashing his teammates to the media... Reinsdorf warned him about being like Isiah in that regard. I only remember hearing about him verbally and physically abusing them in practices.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#729 » by BasicBall » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:19 am

cooch2584 wrote:I cant say and never will say whos the GOAT, its too broad of a decision. Too many factors,years, rules etc....


If you can't say MJ is the best ever, you've never seen him play! :nod:
Don't raise your voice, improve your argument :nod:
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#730 » by cooch2584 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:11 am

Yea right
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#731 » by cooch2584 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:11 pm

MadGrinch wrote:
NYKAL wrote:
Jonathan starks wrote:Regardless of where you stand on this debate, we can all agree the level of scrutiny Jordan faced pales comparison to the level of scrutiny Lebron faces today.


But imho LeBron brings all that scrutiny upon himself. He likes to be in the media.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#732 » by MadGrinch » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:41 pm

spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
spree8 wrote:

Cmon man, you know a young Oakley coming off a 12 & 13 year with monster defense is better than a 31 year old Bill Cartwright putting up 11 & 4. I don’t blame MJ there.

And as far as Wolf... that was his guy from college at NC... I don’t blame him for that. Pippen was taken before the Bulls pick tho... they had to trade for him... not sure if Jordan knew if Pippen was out of reach or if he just wanted Wolf over him no matter what.


by any reasonable criteria Cartwright was still the better player at the time of the trade.

cartwright per 36 was 19 and 8 with a 17.8 PER vs oak's 13 and 13 and a 15.4 PER

joe wolf at center isnt winning any titles and neither oakley nor grant were capable of defending ewing in a 7 game series

and jordan wanted wolf no matter what , he wanted horace grant traded almost immediately after he was drafted .

if jordan got his way he'd the 90's version of dominque wilikins or allen iverson,



No, Cartwright wasn’t the better player. Why are you using per 36 when Cartwright never played 36 mpg other than his rookie year? He put up 11 & 4 and then 12 & 6 in Chicago. And why are you acting like their PER was that big a difference? Cartwright had a 17.8 in NYK that year and then 11.0 in CHI the next year, while Oakley had 15.4 & 14.8 those years. Look at their rebounding rates... Oakley blows him outta the water. Same on defense. Cartwright was a true center, that’s about it. Talent wise, MJ had a right to be mad... plus that was his bff.

I dunno for sure if he wanted Wolf over Pippen tho since he was drafted earlier...haven’t been able to verify that, but either way, I don’t really blame the guy that much for wanting his NC guys with him. He was even pissed that Krause didn’t trade for his other Tar Heel buddy Walter Davis. That’s just how players are.

But to say he wouldn’t have any rings if he had Lebron’s freedom is kinda ridiculous. Oh and let’s give him a lil credit for stepping up when Krause wanted to trade Pippen for a rookie TMac... they didn’t, and they won another ring as a result.

Lebron was in situations where he had the freedom to join up with 2 other Franchise players/All Stars/Olympic players....twice. If MJ had the freedom to do that, I doubt he’d be focusing on the likes of Wolf and Davis, but more like Barkley and Ewing (even tho I don’t think his competitiveness would’ve allowed him to take the cheap way out despite rumors of him almost coming to NY, which was just leverage for more money).

Also, I never heard of MJ bashing his teammates to the media... Reinsdorf warned him about being like Isiah in that regard. I only remember hearing about him verbally and physically abusing them in practices.


cartwright played behind ewing the year before the trade , the year before that they started them both and cartwright avg 18 and 8 , he was the 2nd best player on that team but his presence alongside ewing made ewing a lesser player because it put him at power forward.

oakley was still years from being the defensive ace he is known as today , he was basically a rebounder , no mid range jumpshot , no passing skills ...but he creamed dudes that went after jordan.

as for jordan he has gone on record that he wanted to beat those guys not join up with them(ewing and barkley) he absolutely wanted the spotlight for himself

without pippen and grant they not only would never have beaten the pistons , the team would have gotten blown up

and just because you never heard jordan complain about his teammates does not mean it didn't happen. and to be clear about the thomas reference here is a quote from the jordan rules

"Well," Reinsdorf pointed out to Jordan, "you're not helping any. We're working on several deals, but every time you come out criticizing the general manager, it makes it look like Jerry has to do something and that makes it harder on us. People start thinking we're desperate and want to take advantage of us. " Reinsdorf hoped he wasn't being too hard on Jordan. He always felt they had a good relationship, even if he sometimes had to take a hard line. A few years ago Jordan had come in to talk to him, upset about the team's play and demanding trades. He wanted Horace Grant out, among others.

Jordan was going to go public with his complaints. "Do you want people thinking of you like they do Isiah Thomas? " Reinsdorf said.

It stopped Jordan in his tracks. Thomas had recently been blamed for getting Adrian Dantley traded for Mark Aguirre. Thomas was being reviled in the media as a spoiled, meddling player. Reinsdorf knew the effects of his comments immediately. He knew Jordan's feeling about Thomas and knew Jordan could see how Thomas was being condemned. Jordan backed off.

"Imagine how this makes your teammates feel," Reinsdorf continued. "What are they supposed to think when their captain says we're not good enough? How are we supposed to get the most out of them? And then how are we supposed to make a deal when you're knocking the players? Are other teams going to want them when you say they're not good enough? " Jordan was baffled and speechless. He knew Reinsdorf was right, and he didn't know what to say. He believed the Bulls were going about this all wrong, but Reinsdorf made sense. Like he always does.


jordan was complaining about his teammates in the press to pressure them to make the moves he wanted to the point reinsdorf had to basically scold him like a child.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#733 » by Juco24 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:48 pm

I hear/see guys mention LBJ as the GOAT but never saw Jordan. While Bron gets credit for going to 8 finals, Jordan won 3 ships (NEVER GOING TO A GAME 7) retired and played baseball -- think about that for a second... played & practiced baseball. Came back & in his first full time season, ultimately led the Bulls back to a 3 peat. No reason to think that had he stayed... dude wins 8 straight ships. Just think of the HOFs he prevented from winning a title!
Ewing
Barkley
Malone/Stockton
And had he not retired... does the Dream win? Drexler? Payton didn't get his until later.

Take your pick of his greatest hits.... Was it the 55 against the Knicks only to kill them with an assist?!?! Was it finally getting past the bad boys who were flat out malicious! And please no one tell me that LeBron could've withstood that punishment the way he flops and dry cries. Was it beating Magic & the Lakers in a series in which he flat out ruled onto his first championship! Was it the 63 vs the Celtics at the old Garden vs the Celtic legends!! Was it the game winning double pump hang in the air jumper vs Cleveland (fly by Ehlo) in the playoffs? Was it the DPOY & MVP simultaneously while leading the league in scoring? Who can forget some of the blocked shots he had? This mf had good PGs afraid to bring the ball up the court when he was on them! But what stands out for me is Game 6 in Utah. Bulls down 3 with 40 sconds left and Jordan exhausted with the flu! He drives and hits a layup, goes down & steals the ball from Malone and then comes back down and (pushes off) hits the game winning jumper. Dude was made of ice!!

I understand not everyone on this forum remember these moments... but for those who do - it was legendary!!
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#734 » by cooch2584 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:04 pm

Yes it was. I remember and saw it all.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#735 » by 1999 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:16 pm

Juco24 wrote:I hear/see guys mention LBJ as the GOAT but never saw Jordan. While Bron gets credit for going to 8 finals, Jordan won 3 ships (NEVER GOING TO A GAME 7) retired and played baseball -- think about that for a second... played & practiced baseball. Came back & in his first full time season, ultimately led the Bulls back to a 3 peat. No reason to think that had he stayed... dude wins 8 straight ships. Just think of the HOFs he prevented from winning a title!
Ewing
Barkley
Malone/Stockton
And had he not retired... does the Dream win? Drexler? Payton didn't get his until later.

Take your pick of his greatest hits.... Was it the 55 against the Knicks only to kill them with an assist?!?! Was it finally getting past the bad boys who were flat out malicious! And please no one tell me that LeBron could've withstood that punishment the way he flops and dry cries. Was it beating Magic & the Lakers in a series in which he flat out ruled onto his first championship! Was it the 63 vs the Celtics at the old Garden vs the Celtic legends!! Was it the game winning double pump hang in the air jumper vs Cleveland (fly by Ehlo) in the playoffs? Was it the DPOY & MVP simultaneously while leading the league in scoring? Who can forget some of the blocked shots he had? This mf had good PGs afraid to bring the ball up the court when he was on them! But what stands out for me is Game 6 in Utah. Bulls down 3 with 40 sconds left and Jordan exhausted with the flu! He drives and hits a layup, goes down & steals the ball from Malone and then comes back down and (pushes off) hits the game winning jumper. Dude was made of ice!!

I understand not everyone on this forum remember these moments... but for those who do - it was legendary!!


There are no hypotheticals in sports. Let’s celebrate the 6 rings Jordan did achieve without adding a hypothetical 2 more. Jordan returned in 95, yes he played baseball, but you also brought up the 55 points he scored against the Knicks. That occurred the same season. Bulls were good with and without Jordan, there was no rust. THAT PARTICULAR YEAR they lost to the better team, the Orlando Magic. If that’s the case why not give Lebron a hypothetical championship in 2015 when he’s playing GS without Kyrie, and Love? It doesn’t work that way. A loss is a loss.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#736 » by El Poochio » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Just change the title and poll to Cristiano Ronaldo v Messi already
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#737 » by 1999 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:23 pm

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Bulls lost against the Magic because they had no interior presence. Horace Grant was on the Magic and gave them fits. So what does Chicago do the following year to address the lack of an interior presence? They go out and get Dennis Rodman. Now the rematch the following year Horace Grant gets hurt and he’s not able to play most of the series. Fine, no excuses, Bulls win the rematch. But it isn’t just because MJ “dedicated himself again” to basketball as I’ve heard many people say. Those are the facts.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#738 » by Jonathan starks » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:41 pm

cooch2584 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
NYKAL wrote:


But imho LeBron brings all that scrutiny upon himself. He likes to be in the media.


Jordan called himself the best player of all time. Lebron has always been humble and respectful when compared to Jordan. Now that’s not to say Lebron is humble, he’s not, but Jordan also had an inflated ego.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#739 » by nykfan42 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:48 pm

Jonathan starks wrote:
cooch2584 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:


But imho LeBron brings all that scrutiny upon himself. He likes to be in the media.


Jordan called himself the best player of all time. Lebron has always been humble and respectful when compared to Jordan. Now that’s not to say Lebron is humble, he’s not, but Jordan also had an inflated ego.

He also backed up his big ego with his play. You always saw something special with MJ.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#740 » by spree8 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:10 pm

MadGrinch wrote:
spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
by any reasonable criteria Cartwright was still the better player at the time of the trade.

cartwright per 36 was 19 and 8 with a 17.8 PER vs oak's 13 and 13 and a 15.4 PER

joe wolf at center isnt winning any titles and neither oakley nor grant were capable of defending ewing in a 7 game series

and jordan wanted wolf no matter what , he wanted horace grant traded almost immediately after he was drafted .

if jordan got his way he'd the 90's version of dominque wilikins or allen iverson,



No, Cartwright wasn’t the better player. Why are you using per 36 when Cartwright never played 36 mpg other than his rookie year? He put up 11 & 4 and then 12 & 6 in Chicago. And why are you acting like their PER was that big a difference? Cartwright had a 17.8 in NYK that year and then 11.0 in CHI the next year, while Oakley had 15.4 & 14.8 those years. Look at their rebounding rates... Oakley blows him outta the water. Same on defense. Cartwright was a true center, that’s about it. Talent wise, MJ had a right to be mad... plus that was his bff.

I dunno for sure if he wanted Wolf over Pippen tho since he was drafted earlier...haven’t been able to verify that, but either way, I don’t really blame the guy that much for wanting his NC guys with him. He was even pissed that Krause didn’t trade for his other Tar Heel buddy Walter Davis. That’s just how players are.

But to say he wouldn’t have any rings if he had Lebron’s freedom is kinda ridiculous. Oh and let’s give him a lil credit for stepping up when Krause wanted to trade Pippen for a rookie TMac... they didn’t, and they won another ring as a result.

Lebron was in situations where he had the freedom to join up with 2 other Franchise players/All Stars/Olympic players....twice. If MJ had the freedom to do that, I doubt he’d be focusing on the likes of Wolf and Davis, but more like Barkley and Ewing (even tho I don’t think his competitiveness would’ve allowed him to take the cheap way out despite rumors of him almost coming to NY, which was just leverage for more money).

Also, I never heard of MJ bashing his teammates to the media... Reinsdorf warned him about being like Isiah in that regard. I only remember hearing about him verbally and physically abusing them in practices.


cartwright played behind ewing the year before the trade , the year before that they started them both and cartwright avg 18 and 8 , he was the 2nd best player on that team but his presence alongside ewing made ewing a lesser player because it put him at power forward.

oakley was still years from being the defensive ace he is known as today , he was basically a rebounder , no mid range jumpshot , no passing skills ...but he creamed dudes that went after jordan.

as for jordan he has gone on record that he wanted to beat those guys not join up with them(ewing and barkley) he absolutely wanted the spotlight for himself

without pippen and grant they not only would never have beaten the pistons , the team would have gotten blown up

and just because you never heard jordan complain about his teammates does not mean it didn't happen. and to be clear about the thomas reference here is a quote from the jordan rules

"Well," Reinsdorf pointed out to Jordan, "you're not helping any. We're working on several deals, but every time you come out criticizing the general manager, it makes it look like Jerry has to do something and that makes it harder on us. People start thinking we're desperate and want to take advantage of us. " Reinsdorf hoped he wasn't being too hard on Jordan. He always felt they had a good relationship, even if he sometimes had to take a hard line. A few years ago Jordan had come in to talk to him, upset about the team's play and demanding trades. He wanted Horace Grant out, among others.

Jordan was going to go public with his complaints. "Do you want people thinking of you like they do Isiah Thomas? " Reinsdorf said.

It stopped Jordan in his tracks. Thomas had recently been blamed for getting Adrian Dantley traded for Mark Aguirre. Thomas was being reviled in the media as a spoiled, meddling player. Reinsdorf knew the effects of his comments immediately. He knew Jordan's feeling about Thomas and knew Jordan could see how Thomas was being condemned. Jordan backed off.

"Imagine how this makes your teammates feel," Reinsdorf continued. "What are they supposed to think when their captain says we're not good enough? How are we supposed to get the most out of them? And then how are we supposed to make a deal when you're knocking the players? Are other teams going to want them when you say they're not good enough? " Jordan was baffled and speechless. He knew Reinsdorf was right, and he didn't know what to say. He believed the Bulls were going about this all wrong, but Reinsdorf made sense. Like he always does.


jordan was complaining about his teammates in the press to pressure them to make the moves he wanted to the point reinsdorf had to basically scold him like a child.



Cartwright putting up 17 & 7 the year before playing 2/3 of the season and 0 the year before that doesn’t really support the idea he was better than Oakley. Especially when you factor in the 11 & 4, and 12 & 6 his last Knick year/1st year with the Bulls. Just because Oakley wasn’t at his peak defensively doesn’t mean he wasn’t very good at that time... just like Ewing, he got better under Riley.

Regarding Jordan saying he didn’t wanna play with Barkley and Ewing, I already pointed to that lol, but you’re comparing apples to oranges. Lebron took the cheap route with FA and playing Gm, and Michael was just trying to bring in his college buddies. Down the line, if he was ringless like you say, his opinion could’ve changed and he might’ve actually went that route.

That excerpt doesn’t say anything about Jordan trashing his teammates in public... it said “Jordan was going to go public with the complaints”.... and according to that, he only criticized Krause to the media...a guy he couldn’t stand as Gm. The last paragraph you highlight is prefaced with the “was going to go public” and it looks to me like Reinsdorf is speaking about how the players will feel in the event MJ went public with the stuff he was complaining to him about... which he didn’t when Reinsdorf brought up Isiah... he wasn’t “scolding MJ like a child” tho. Again, I didn’t say he never did, but I’ve never heard that.

Anyway, it’s a waste of time to debate about things like Bill friggin Cartwright, but to say Jordan would be ringless if he had Lebron’s flexibility is wrong and again, not apples to apples. MJ wanting Wolf and Davis is equivalent to Lebron wanting JR and Tristan to be re-signed for big money...nothing wrong with wanting their guys on the team. If MJ had the opportunities Lebron had, who knows what he could’ve done with the team if he wasn’t winning, or on another team altogether.
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