spree8 wrote: MadGrinch wrote:
Cmon man, you know a young Oakley coming off a 12 & 13 year with monster defense is better than a 31 year old Bill Cartwright putting up 11 & 4. I don’t blame MJ there.
And as far as Wolf... that was his guy from college at NC... I don’t blame him for that. Pippen was taken before the Bulls pick tho... they had to trade for him... not sure if Jordan knew if Pippen was out of reach or if he just wanted Wolf over him no matter what.
by any reasonable criteria Cartwright was still the better player at the time of the trade.
cartwright per 36 was 19 and 8 with a 17.8 PER vs oak's 13 and 13 and a 15.4 PER
joe wolf at center isnt winning any titles and neither oakley nor grant were capable of defending ewing in a 7 game series
and jordan wanted wolf no matter what , he wanted horace grant traded almost immediately after he was drafted .
if jordan got his way he'd the 90's version of dominque wilikins or allen iverson,
No, Cartwright wasn’t the better player. Why are you using per 36 when Cartwright never played 36 mpg other than his rookie year? He put up 11 & 4 and then 12 & 6 in Chicago. And why are you acting like their PER was that big a difference? Cartwright had a 17.8 in NYK that year and then 11.0 in CHI the next year, while Oakley had 15.4 & 14.8 those years. Look at their rebounding rates... Oakley blows him outta the water. Same on defense. Cartwright was a true center, that’s about it. Talent wise, MJ had a right to be mad... plus that was his bff.
I dunno for sure if he wanted Wolf over Pippen tho since he was drafted earlier...haven’t been able to verify that, but either way, I don’t really blame the guy that much for wanting his NC guys with him. He was even pissed that Krause didn’t trade for his other Tar Heel buddy Walter Davis. That’s just how players are.
But to say he wouldn’t have any rings if he had Lebron’s freedom is kinda ridiculous. Oh and let’s give him a lil credit for stepping up when Krause wanted to trade Pippen for a rookie TMac... they didn’t, and they won another ring as a result.
Lebron was in situations where he had the freedom to join up with 2 other Franchise players/All Stars/Olympic players....twice. If MJ had the freedom to do that, I doubt he’d be focusing on the likes of Wolf and Davis, but more like Barkley and Ewing (even tho I don’t think his competitiveness would’ve allowed him to take the cheap way out despite rumors of him almost coming to NY, which was just leverage for more money).
Also, I never heard of MJ bashing his teammates to the media... Reinsdorf warned him about being like Isiah in that regard. I only remember hearing about him verbally and physically abusing them in practices.
cartwright played behind ewing the year before the trade , the year before that they started them both and cartwright avg 18 and 8 , he was the 2nd best player on that team but his presence alongside ewing made ewing a lesser player because it put him at power forward.
oakley was still years from being the defensive ace he is known as today , he was basically a rebounder , no mid range jumpshot , no passing skills ...but he creamed dudes that went after jordan.
as for jordan he has gone on record that he wanted to beat those guys not join up with them(ewing and barkley) he absolutely wanted the spotlight for himself
without pippen and grant they not only would never have beaten the pistons , the team would have gotten blown up
and just because you never heard jordan complain about his teammates does not mean it didn't happen. and to be clear about the thomas reference here is a quote from the jordan rules
"Well," Reinsdorf pointed out to Jordan, "you're not helping any. We're working on several deals, but every time you come out criticizing the general manager, it makes it look like Jerry has to do something and that makes it harder on us. People start thinking we're desperate and want to take advantage of us. " Reinsdorf hoped he wasn't being too hard on Jordan. He always felt they had a good relationship, even if he sometimes had to take a hard line. A few years ago Jordan had come in to talk to him, upset about the team's play and demanding trades. He wanted Horace Grant out, among others.
Jordan was going to go public with his complaints. "Do you want people thinking of you like they do Isiah Thomas? " Reinsdorf said.
It stopped Jordan in his tracks. Thomas had recently been blamed for getting Adrian Dantley traded for Mark Aguirre. Thomas was being reviled in the media as a spoiled, meddling player. Reinsdorf knew the effects of his comments immediately. He knew Jordan's feeling about Thomas and knew Jordan could see how Thomas was being condemned. Jordan backed off.
"Imagine how this makes your teammates feel," Reinsdorf continued. "What are they supposed to think when their captain says we're not good enough? How are we supposed to get the most out of them? And then how are we supposed to make a deal when you're knocking the players? Are other teams going to want them when you say they're not good enough? " Jordan was baffled and speechless. He knew Reinsdorf was right, and he didn't know what to say. He believed the Bulls were going about this all wrong, but Reinsdorf made sense. Like he always does.
jordan was complaining about his teammates in the press to pressure them to make the moves he wanted to the point reinsdorf had to basically scold him like a child.