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OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

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Who is the GOAT?

Michael Jordan
119
76%
LeBron James
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24%
 
Total votes: 157

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#741 » by KnickFan33 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 pm

Wasn't sure where else to put it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780523-kobe-bryant-nba-greats-get-lathered-about-lebrons-legacy

"Phil used to say this thing to me a lot, when I was doing a lot on the court," said Bryant, whose ESPN+ show Detail explores the technical aspects of the game. "He'd say, 'You have to do less.' And I'd say, 'Well, my teammates got to step up more.' Phil would say, 'Well, it's your responsibility to thrust the game upon them.'"


Wondering what everybody's thoughts on the above quotes might be and how it might fit into the LeBron vs. Jordan debate.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#742 » by nykfan42 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 pm

KnickFan33 wrote:Wasn't sure where else to put it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780523-kobe-bryant-nba-greats-get-lathered-about-lebrons-legacy

"Phil used to say this thing to me a lot, when I was doing a lot on the court," said Bryant, whose ESPN+ show Detail explores the technical aspects of the game. "He'd say, 'You have to do less.' And I'd say, 'Well, my teammates got to step up more.' Phil would say, 'Well, it's your responsibility to thrust the game upon them.'"


Wondering what everybody's thoughts on the above quotes might be and how it might fit into the LeBron vs. Jordan debate.

Michael would get his teammates to step up more. LeBron makes them bail him out in crunch time then blames them and a fake injury for why they lost.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#743 » by Sark » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:22 am

KnickFan33 wrote:Wasn't sure where else to put it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780523-kobe-bryant-nba-greats-get-lathered-about-lebrons-legacy

"Phil used to say this thing to me a lot, when I was doing a lot on the court," said Bryant, whose ESPN+ show Detail explores the technical aspects of the game. "He'd say, 'You have to do less.' And I'd say, 'Well, my teammates got to step up more.' Phil would say, 'Well, it's your responsibility to thrust the game upon them.'"


Wondering what everybody's thoughts on the above quotes might be and how it might fit into the LeBron vs. Jordan debate.



Lebron could never play that way. He plays for his stats. He had Blatt fired for having a team oriented offense.

Here he gets visibly frustrated when his teammates take rebounds from him when he was close to a triple double


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#744 » by MadGrinch » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:16 am

spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
spree8 wrote:

No, Cartwright wasn’t the better player. Why are you using per 36 when Cartwright never played 36 mpg other than his rookie year? He put up 11 & 4 and then 12 & 6 in Chicago. And why are you acting like their PER was that big a difference? Cartwright had a 17.8 in NYK that year and then 11.0 in CHI the next year, while Oakley had 15.4 & 14.8 those years. Look at their rebounding rates... Oakley blows him outta the water. Same on defense. Cartwright was a true center, that’s about it. Talent wise, MJ had a right to be mad... plus that was his bff.

I dunno for sure if he wanted Wolf over Pippen tho since he was drafted earlier...haven’t been able to verify that, but either way, I don’t really blame the guy that much for wanting his NC guys with him. He was even pissed that Krause didn’t trade for his other Tar Heel buddy Walter Davis. That’s just how players are.

But to say he wouldn’t have any rings if he had Lebron’s freedom is kinda ridiculous. Oh and let’s give him a lil credit for stepping up when Krause wanted to trade Pippen for a rookie TMac... they didn’t, and they won another ring as a result.

Lebron was in situations where he had the freedom to join up with 2 other Franchise players/All Stars/Olympic players....twice. If MJ had the freedom to do that, I doubt he’d be focusing on the likes of Wolf and Davis, but more like Barkley and Ewing (even tho I don’t think his competitiveness would’ve allowed him to take the cheap way out despite rumors of him almost coming to NY, which was just leverage for more money).

Also, I never heard of MJ bashing his teammates to the media... Reinsdorf warned him about being like Isiah in that regard. I only remember hearing about him verbally and physically abusing them in practices.


cartwright played behind ewing the year before the trade , the year before that they started them both and cartwright avg 18 and 8 , he was the 2nd best player on that team but his presence alongside ewing made ewing a lesser player because it put him at power forward.

oakley was still years from being the defensive ace he is known as today , he was basically a rebounder , no mid range jumpshot , no passing skills ...but he creamed dudes that went after jordan.

as for jordan he has gone on record that he wanted to beat those guys not join up with them(ewing and barkley) he absolutely wanted the spotlight for himself

without pippen and grant they not only would never have beaten the pistons , the team would have gotten blown up

and just because you never heard jordan complain about his teammates does not mean it didn't happen. and to be clear about the thomas reference here is a quote from the jordan rules

"Well," Reinsdorf pointed out to Jordan, "you're not helping any. We're working on several deals, but every time you come out criticizing the general manager, it makes it look like Jerry has to do something and that makes it harder on us. People start thinking we're desperate and want to take advantage of us. " Reinsdorf hoped he wasn't being too hard on Jordan. He always felt they had a good relationship, even if he sometimes had to take a hard line. A few years ago Jordan had come in to talk to him, upset about the team's play and demanding trades. He wanted Horace Grant out, among others.

Jordan was going to go public with his complaints. "Do you want people thinking of you like they do Isiah Thomas? " Reinsdorf said.

It stopped Jordan in his tracks. Thomas had recently been blamed for getting Adrian Dantley traded for Mark Aguirre. Thomas was being reviled in the media as a spoiled, meddling player. Reinsdorf knew the effects of his comments immediately. He knew Jordan's feeling about Thomas and knew Jordan could see how Thomas was being condemned. Jordan backed off.

"Imagine how this makes your teammates feel," Reinsdorf continued. "What are they supposed to think when their captain says we're not good enough? How are we supposed to get the most out of them? And then how are we supposed to make a deal when you're knocking the players? Are other teams going to want them when you say they're not good enough? " Jordan was baffled and speechless. He knew Reinsdorf was right, and he didn't know what to say. He believed the Bulls were going about this all wrong, but Reinsdorf made sense. Like he always does.


jordan was complaining about his teammates in the press to pressure them to make the moves he wanted to the point reinsdorf had to basically scold him like a child.



Cartwright putting up 17 & 7 the year before playing 2/3 of the season and 0 the year before that doesn’t really support the idea he was better than Oakley. Especially when you factor in the 11 & 4, and 12 & 6 his last Knick year/1st year with the Bulls. Just because Oakley wasn’t at his peak defensively doesn’t mean he wasn’t very good at that time... just like Ewing, he got better under Riley.

Regarding Jordan saying he didn’t wanna play with Barkley and Ewing, I already pointed to that lol, but you’re comparing apples to oranges. Lebron took the cheap route with FA and playing Gm, and Michael was just trying to bring in his college buddies. Down the line, if he was ringless like you say, his opinion could’ve changed and he might’ve actually went that route.

That excerpt doesn’t say anything about Jordan trashing his teammates in public... it said “Jordan was going to go public with the complaints”.... and according to that, he only criticized Krause to the media...a guy he couldn’t stand as Gm. The last paragraph you highlight is prefaced with the “was going to go public” and it looks to me like Reinsdorf is speaking about how the players will feel in the event MJ went public with the stuff he was complaining to him about... which he didn’t when Reinsdorf brought up Isiah... he wasn’t “scolding MJ like a child” tho. Again, I didn’t say he never did, but I’ve never heard that.

Anyway, it’s a waste of time to debate about things like Bill friggin Cartwright, but to say Jordan would be ringless if he had Lebron’s flexibility is wrong and again, not apples to apples. MJ wanting Wolf and Davis is equivalent to Lebron wanting JR and Tristan to be re-signed for big money...nothing wrong with wanting their guys on the team. If MJ had the opportunities Lebron had, who knows what he could’ve done with the team if he wasn’t winning, or on another team altogether.


dude i bolded the part where opposing GM's knew jordan knew he was saying his teammates weren't good enough

how do you think they knew ?

do you think Jordan was directly calling them ?

no he was spouting it to the press , but i shouldn't have to even quote the jordan rules to you , either you weren't around or paying attention this is michael jordan we are talking about anytime he said anything it was widely spread news which makes your viewpoint of events back then inaccurate to say the least .
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#745 » by MadGrinch » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:28 am

KnickFan33 wrote:Wasn't sure where else to put it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780523-kobe-bryant-nba-greats-get-lathered-about-lebrons-legacy

"Phil used to say this thing to me a lot, when I was doing a lot on the court," said Bryant, whose ESPN+ show Detail explores the technical aspects of the game. "He'd say, 'You have to do less.' And I'd say, 'Well, my teammates got to step up more.' Phil would say, 'Well, it's your responsibility to thrust the game upon them.'"


Wondering what everybody's thoughts on the above quotes might be and how it might fit into the LeBron vs. Jordan debate.


team construction has a lot to do with it MJ, had both pippen and another guard to help with ball distribution , whereas Lebron basically has both pippen and MJ's job on the court in the sense of being both the main scorer and its main distributor offensively and in both cases its by team design .

the bulls coaches wanted Jordan to focus himself as a scorer and only looked to rein him in if he became too ball dominant to the point it was a detriment.

lebron's coaches are different they historically put him in a distributor's role and then push him to score more , he left cleveland the 1st time because in part he felt he was carrying too much of the load to win titles.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#746 » by spree8 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 pm

MadGrinch wrote:
spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
cartwright played behind ewing the year before the trade , the year before that they started them both and cartwright avg 18 and 8 , he was the 2nd best player on that team but his presence alongside ewing made ewing a lesser player because it put him at power forward.

oakley was still years from being the defensive ace he is known as today , he was basically a rebounder , no mid range jumpshot , no passing skills ...but he creamed dudes that went after jordan.

as for jordan he has gone on record that he wanted to beat those guys not join up with them(ewing and barkley) he absolutely wanted the spotlight for himself

without pippen and grant they not only would never have beaten the pistons , the team would have gotten blown up

and just because you never heard jordan complain about his teammates does not mean it didn't happen. and to be clear about the thomas reference here is a quote from the jordan rules



jordan was complaining about his teammates in the press to pressure them to make the moves he wanted to the point reinsdorf had to basically scold him like a child.



Cartwright putting up 17 & 7 the year before playing 2/3 of the season and 0 the year before that doesn’t really support the idea he was better than Oakley. Especially when you factor in the 11 & 4, and 12 & 6 his last Knick year/1st year with the Bulls. Just because Oakley wasn’t at his peak defensively doesn’t mean he wasn’t very good at that time... just like Ewing, he got better under Riley.

Regarding Jordan saying he didn’t wanna play with Barkley and Ewing, I already pointed to that lol, but you’re comparing apples to oranges. Lebron took the cheap route with FA and playing Gm, and Michael was just trying to bring in his college buddies. Down the line, if he was ringless like you say, his opinion could’ve changed and he might’ve actually went that route.

That excerpt doesn’t say anything about Jordan trashing his teammates in public... it said “Jordan was going to go public with the complaints”.... and according to that, he only criticized Krause to the media...a guy he couldn’t stand as Gm. The last paragraph you highlight is prefaced with the “was going to go public” and it looks to me like Reinsdorf is speaking about how the players will feel in the event MJ went public with the stuff he was complaining to him about... which he didn’t when Reinsdorf brought up Isiah... he wasn’t “scolding MJ like a child” tho. Again, I didn’t say he never did, but I’ve never heard that.

Anyway, it’s a waste of time to debate about things like Bill friggin Cartwright, but to say Jordan would be ringless if he had Lebron’s flexibility is wrong and again, not apples to apples. MJ wanting Wolf and Davis is equivalent to Lebron wanting JR and Tristan to be re-signed for big money...nothing wrong with wanting their guys on the team. If MJ had the opportunities Lebron had, who knows what he could’ve done with the team if he wasn’t winning, or on another team altogether.


dude i bolded the part where opposing GM's knew jordan knew he was saying his teammates weren't good enough

how do you think they knew ?

do you think Jordan was directly calling them ?

no he was spouting it to the press , but i shouldn't have to even quote the jordan rules to you , either you weren't around or paying attention this is michael jordan we are talking about anytime he said anything it was widely spread news which makes your viewpoint of events back then inaccurate to say the least .




How did the other Gm’s know? You didn’t know MJ played golf with them?


"I play golf with these general managers all summer," Jordan said, "and they all tell me they don't want to deal with Krause because he's always trying to rip them off, get something for nothing. It's why we don't do anything. "



That’s how. “I shouldn’t have to quote the Jordan Rules for you.”

Still waiting for evidence to be produced that Jordan badmouthed his teammates to the press at the time. Again, not saying he didn’t, but I haven’t heard that :D
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#747 » by 1999 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:46 pm

spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
spree8 wrote:

Cartwright putting up 17 & 7 the year before playing 2/3 of the season and 0 the year before that doesn’t really support the idea he was better than Oakley. Especially when you factor in the 11 & 4, and 12 & 6 his last Knick year/1st year with the Bulls. Just because Oakley wasn’t at his peak defensively doesn’t mean he wasn’t very good at that time... just like Ewing, he got better under Riley.

Regarding Jordan saying he didn’t wanna play with Barkley and Ewing, I already pointed to that lol, but you’re comparing apples to oranges. Lebron took the cheap route with FA and playing Gm, and Michael was just trying to bring in his college buddies. Down the line, if he was ringless like you say, his opinion could’ve changed and he might’ve actually went that route.

That excerpt doesn’t say anything about Jordan trashing his teammates in public... it said “Jordan was going to go public with the complaints”.... and according to that, he only criticized Krause to the media...a guy he couldn’t stand as Gm. The last paragraph you highlight is prefaced with the “was going to go public” and it looks to me like Reinsdorf is speaking about how the players will feel in the event MJ went public with the stuff he was complaining to him about... which he didn’t when Reinsdorf brought up Isiah... he wasn’t “scolding MJ like a child” tho. Again, I didn’t say he never did, but I’ve never heard that.

Anyway, it’s a waste of time to debate about things like Bill friggin Cartwright, but to say Jordan would be ringless if he had Lebron’s flexibility is wrong and again, not apples to apples. MJ wanting Wolf and Davis is equivalent to Lebron wanting JR and Tristan to be re-signed for big money...nothing wrong with wanting their guys on the team. If MJ had the opportunities Lebron had, who knows what he could’ve done with the team if he wasn’t winning, or on another team altogether.


dude i bolded the part where opposing GM's knew jordan knew he was saying his teammates weren't good enough

how do you think they knew ?

do you think Jordan was directly calling them ?

no he was spouting it to the press , but i shouldn't have to even quote the jordan rules to you , either you weren't around or paying attention this is michael jordan we are talking about anytime he said anything it was widely spread news which makes your viewpoint of events back then inaccurate to say the least .




How did the other Gm’s know? You didn’t know MJ played golf with them?


"I play golf with these general managers all summer," Jordan said, "and they all tell me they don't want to deal with Krause because he's always trying to rip them off, get something for nothing. It's why we don't do anything. "



That’s how. “I shouldn’t have to quote the Jordan Rules for you.”

Still waiting for evidence to be produced that Jordan badmouthed his teammates to the press at the time. Again, not saying he didn’t, but I haven’t heard that :D


What difference is it if MJ wanted them gone publicly or physically and verbally disparaged them in private? Why is MJ credited for making teammates better? You can easily make the case that if Kerr wasn’t a strong minded individual his career would’ve been ruined. MJ also punched Will Purdue. Bill Cartwright was treated like garbage by MJ because they traded his bff Oakley to get him. All of these things occurred and more would be known if it occurred in this era. Lastly, the season following MJ’s first retirement the bulls played better offensively without him. Why would Pippen’s, Horace Grant’s and others field goal percentage rise while Jordan wasn’t on the court. You would expect their ppg to go up on a worse efficiency but that wasn’t the case...


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#748 » by 1999 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:53 pm

Having a system in which roles are clearly defined is what certainly helps winning. It’s how a bum like Jud Buechler, Bill Wennington etc could touch the floor and not be a net negative. Stars will be stars in any system. Role players need structure. Phil Jackson was an excellent coach.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#749 » by nykfan42 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:28 pm

1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
dude i bolded the part where opposing GM's knew jordan knew he was saying his teammates weren't good enough

how do you think they knew ?

do you think Jordan was directly calling them ?

no he was spouting it to the press , but i shouldn't have to even quote the jordan rules to you , either you weren't around or paying attention this is michael jordan we are talking about anytime he said anything it was widely spread news which makes your viewpoint of events back then inaccurate to say the least .




How did the other Gm’s know? You didn’t know MJ played golf with them?


"I play golf with these general managers all summer," Jordan said, "and they all tell me they don't want to deal with Krause because he's always trying to rip them off, get something for nothing. It's why we don't do anything. "



That’s how. “I shouldn’t have to quote the Jordan Rules for you.”

Still waiting for evidence to be produced that Jordan badmouthed his teammates to the press at the time. Again, not saying he didn’t, but I haven’t heard that :D


What difference is it if MJ wanted them gone publicly or physically and verbally disparaged them in private? Why is MJ credited for making teammates better? You can easily make the case that if Kerr wasn’t a strong minded individual his career would’ve been ruined. MJ also punched Will Purdue. Bill Cartwright was treated like garbage by MJ because they traded his bff Oakley to get him. All of these things occurred and more would be known if it occurred in this era. Lastly, the season following MJ’s first retirement the bulls played better offensively without him. Why would Pippen’s, Horace Grant’s and others field goal percentage rise while Jordan wasn’t on the court. You would expect their ppg to go up on a worse efficiency but that wasn’t the case...


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Team statistics relating to the year before and year after MJ retired. 1992-93 & 1993-94.

1992-93 - 105.2 PPG
1993-94 - 98.0 PPG
Hmmmm, does this look like they played better offensively without MJ?

1992-93 - 26.0 APG
1993-94 - 25.6 APG
MJ was such a ball hog and disrupted the ball movement. Oh wait.....

1992-93 - 13.5 TO's
1993-94 - 15.9 TO's
The Bulls were more efficient offensively..... Oh wait 2.5 more turnovers a game is actually not good?

1992-93 - 47% FG
1993-94 - 46% FG
Not a big difference but nevertheless, still better the year before he retired and they had 230 more Field goals made. You said it improved tho?

1992-93 - 73% FT
1993-94 - 70% FT
They must've improved at something the year after MJ retired right? Oh.. nah....

Nice try but again you have failed to actually do any research. I was just going to stick with the PPG difference but I didn't, sorry. Of course Scottie and Horace's points will go up the year after losing a 33ppg player in MJ. More touches for them. Also Horace Grant's FG% every year with MJ was over 50%. Scottie's shooting wasn't that far off either.
1987-88 - 50%
1988-89 - 52%
1989-90 - 52%
1990-91 - 55%
1991-92 - 58%
1992-93 - 51%
1993-94 - 52%

Scottie Pippen
1987-88 - 46%
1988-89 - 48%
1989-90 - 49%
1990-91 - 52%
1991-92 - 51%
1992-93 - 47%
1993-94 - 49%
So your theory is wrong based on these shooting percentages. To simply say because MJ retired they became better offensively is silly. Especially when you see consistent shooting percentages in all the years prior to him retiring.

Also it's expected for the team's offensive scoring to go down as well when losing a player that significant. The point here is that you're wrong saying the Bulls played better offensively the year after MJ retired. They didn't. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#750 » by 1999 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:50 pm

nykfan42 wrote:
1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:


How did the other Gm’s know? You didn’t know MJ played golf with them?


"I play golf with these general managers all summer," Jordan said, "and they all tell me they don't want to deal with Krause because he's always trying to rip them off, get something for nothing. It's why we don't do anything. "



That’s how. “I shouldn’t have to quote the Jordan Rules for you.”

Still waiting for evidence to be produced that Jordan badmouthed his teammates to the press at the time. Again, not saying he didn’t, but I haven’t heard that :D


What difference is it if MJ wanted them gone publicly or physically and verbally disparaged them in private? Why is MJ credited for making teammates better? You can easily make the case that if Kerr wasn’t a strong minded individual his career would’ve been ruined. MJ also punched Will Purdue. Bill Cartwright was treated like garbage by MJ because they traded his bff Oakley to get him. All of these things occurred and more would be known if it occurred in this era. Lastly, the season following MJ’s first retirement the bulls played better offensively without him. Why would Pippen’s, Horace Grant’s and others field goal percentage rise while Jordan wasn’t on the court. You would expect their ppg to go up on a worse efficiency but that wasn’t the case...


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Team statistics relating to the year before and year after MJ retired. 1992-93 & 1993-94.

1992-93 - 105.2 PPG
1993-94 - 98.0 PPG
Hmmmm, does this look like they played better offensively without MJ?

1992-93 - 26.0 APG
1993-94 - 25.6 APG
MJ was such a ball hog and disrupted the ball movement. Oh wait.....

1992-93 - 13.5 TO's
1993-94 - 15.9 TO's
The Bulls were more efficient offensively..... Oh wait 2.5 more turnovers a game is actually not good?

1992-93 - 47% FG
1993-94 - 46% FG
Not a big difference but nevertheless, still better the year before he retired and they had 230 more Field goals made. You said it improved tho?

1992-93 - 73% FT
1993-94 - 70% FT
They must've improved at something the year after MJ retired right? Oh.. nah....

Nice try but again you have failed to actually do any research. I was just going to stick with the PPG difference but I didn't, sorry. Of course Scottie and Horace's points will go up the year after losing a 33ppg player in MJ. More touches for them. Also Horace Grant's FG% every year with MJ was over 50%. Scottie's shooting wasn't that far off either.
1987-88 - 50%
1988-89 - 52%
1989-90 - 52%
1990-91 - 55%
1991-92 - 58%
1992-93 - 51%
1993-94 - 52%

Scottie Pippen
1987-88 - 46%
1988-89 - 48%
1989-90 - 49%
1990-91 - 52%
1991-92 - 51%
1992-93 - 47%
1993-94 - 49%
So your theory is wrong based on these shooting percentages. To simply say because MJ retired they became better offensively is silly. Especially when you see consistent shooting percentages in all the years prior to him retiring.

Also it's expected for the team's offensive scoring to go down as well when losing a player that significant. The point here is that you're wrong saying the Bulls played better offensively the year after MJ retired. They didn't. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.


How did I not do any research if you proved my point? The year following Jordan’s retirement Pippen and Grant 2 of the higher usage players on the Bulls actually improved their fg percentage from the year prior. Yes they scored more ppg, that’s expected but they also still shot the ball efficiently. Not expected when you remove a 30+ ppg scorer (who attracts the most attention) from the team. My argument is Lebron is maligned for not making his teammates better. How is Jordan making his teammates better when his team by the stats you posted are virtually alike year to year. When Lebron left Cleveland we know what happened. So is this a function of the system which I suggested earlier? Because it’s certainly not as simple as just saying wow MJ made his teammates way better than Lebron. The evidence doesn’t support that. Also since you brought up all of the stats why did you neglect defensive rating without Michael. Ironically, the bulls were better statistically WITHOUT MJ. Now before you say same applies to Cleveland you’re right, but Lebron never won a defensive player of the year award. So really, it comes down to yes it is a convo that can’t be easily dismissed when saying one is clearly better if you’re willing to be objective.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#751 » by spree8 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:26 pm

1999 wrote:
nykfan42 wrote:
1999 wrote:
What difference is it if MJ wanted them gone publicly or physically and verbally disparaged them in private? Why is MJ credited for making teammates better? You can easily make the case that if Kerr wasn’t a strong minded individual his career would’ve been ruined. MJ also punched Will Purdue. Bill Cartwright was treated like garbage by MJ because they traded his bff Oakley to get him. All of these things occurred and more would be known if it occurred in this era. Lastly, the season following MJ’s first retirement the bulls played better offensively without him. Why would Pippen’s, Horace Grant’s and others field goal percentage rise while Jordan wasn’t on the court. You would expect their ppg to go up on a worse efficiency but that wasn’t the case...


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Team statistics relating to the year before and year after MJ retired. 1992-93 & 1993-94.

1992-93 - 105.2 PPG
1993-94 - 98.0 PPG
Hmmmm, does this look like they played better offensively without MJ?

1992-93 - 26.0 APG
1993-94 - 25.6 APG
MJ was such a ball hog and disrupted the ball movement. Oh wait.....

1992-93 - 13.5 TO's
1993-94 - 15.9 TO's
The Bulls were more efficient offensively..... Oh wait 2.5 more turnovers a game is actually not good?

1992-93 - 47% FG
1993-94 - 46% FG
Not a big difference but nevertheless, still better the year before he retired and they had 230 more Field goals made. You said it improved tho?

1992-93 - 73% FT
1993-94 - 70% FT
They must've improved at something the year after MJ retired right? Oh.. nah....

Nice try but again you have failed to actually do any research. I was just going to stick with the PPG difference but I didn't, sorry. Of course Scottie and Horace's points will go up the year after losing a 33ppg player in MJ. More touches for them. Also Horace Grant's FG% every year with MJ was over 50%. Scottie's shooting wasn't that far off either.
1987-88 - 50%
1988-89 - 52%
1989-90 - 52%
1990-91 - 55%
1991-92 - 58%
1992-93 - 51%
1993-94 - 52%

Scottie Pippen
1987-88 - 46%
1988-89 - 48%
1989-90 - 49%
1990-91 - 52%
1991-92 - 51%
1992-93 - 47%
1993-94 - 49%
So your theory is wrong based on these shooting percentages. To simply say because MJ retired they became better offensively is silly. Especially when you see consistent shooting percentages in all the years prior to him retiring.

Also it's expected for the team's offensive scoring to go down as well when losing a player that significant. The point here is that you're wrong saying the Bulls played better offensively the year after MJ retired. They didn't. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.


How did I not do any research if you proved my point? The year following Jordan’s retirement Pippen and Grant 2 of the higher usage players on the Bulls actually improved their fg percentage from the year prior. Yes they scored more ppg, that’s expected but they also still shot the ball efficiently. Not expected when you remove a 30+ ppg scorer (who attracts the most attention) from the team. My argument is Lebron is maligned for not making his teammates better. How is Jordan making his teammates better when his team by the stats you posted are virtually alike year to year. When Lebron left Cleveland we know what happened. So is this a function of the system which I suggested earlier? Because it’s certainly not as simple as just saying wow MJ made his teammates way better than Lebron. The evidence doesn’t support that. Also since you brought up all of the stats why did you neglect defensive rating without Michael. Ironically, the bulls were better statistically WITHOUT MJ. Now before you say same applies to Cleveland you’re right, but Lebron never won a defensive player of the year award. So really, it comes down to yes it is a convo that can’t be easily dismissed when saying one is clearly better if you’re willing to be objective.


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Lol if you seriously believe the Bulls were better without MJ and that he made no difference because it was the system, then we need to just end this convo right here. This topic shouldn’t even have started, and when it did, it got polluted with dumb shyt like this.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#752 » by 1999 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:35 pm

spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
nykfan42 wrote:Team statistics relating to the year before and year after MJ retired. 1992-93 & 1993-94.

1992-93 - 105.2 PPG
1993-94 - 98.0 PPG
Hmmmm, does this look like they played better offensively without MJ?

1992-93 - 26.0 APG
1993-94 - 25.6 APG
MJ was such a ball hog and disrupted the ball movement. Oh wait.....

1992-93 - 13.5 TO's
1993-94 - 15.9 TO's
The Bulls were more efficient offensively..... Oh wait 2.5 more turnovers a game is actually not good?

1992-93 - 47% FG
1993-94 - 46% FG
Not a big difference but nevertheless, still better the year before he retired and they had 230 more Field goals made. You said it improved tho?

1992-93 - 73% FT
1993-94 - 70% FT
They must've improved at something the year after MJ retired right? Oh.. nah....

Nice try but again you have failed to actually do any research. I was just going to stick with the PPG difference but I didn't, sorry. Of course Scottie and Horace's points will go up the year after losing a 33ppg player in MJ. More touches for them. Also Horace Grant's FG% every year with MJ was over 50%. Scottie's shooting wasn't that far off either.
1987-88 - 50%
1988-89 - 52%
1989-90 - 52%
1990-91 - 55%
1991-92 - 58%
1992-93 - 51%
1993-94 - 52%

Scottie Pippen
1987-88 - 46%
1988-89 - 48%
1989-90 - 49%
1990-91 - 52%
1991-92 - 51%
1992-93 - 47%
1993-94 - 49%
So your theory is wrong based on these shooting percentages. To simply say because MJ retired they became better offensively is silly. Especially when you see consistent shooting percentages in all the years prior to him retiring.

Also it's expected for the team's offensive scoring to go down as well when losing a player that significant. The point here is that you're wrong saying the Bulls played better offensively the year after MJ retired. They didn't. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.


How did I not do any research if you proved my point? The year following Jordan’s retirement Pippen and Grant 2 of the higher usage players on the Bulls actually improved their fg percentage from the year prior. Yes they scored more ppg, that’s expected but they also still shot the ball efficiently. Not expected when you remove a 30+ ppg scorer (who attracts the most attention) from the team. My argument is Lebron is maligned for not making his teammates better. How is Jordan making his teammates better when his team by the stats you posted are virtually alike year to year. When Lebron left Cleveland we know what happened. So is this a function of the system which I suggested earlier? Because it’s certainly not as simple as just saying wow MJ made his teammates way better than Lebron. The evidence doesn’t support that. Also since you brought up all of the stats why did you neglect defensive rating without Michael. Ironically, the bulls were better statistically WITHOUT MJ. Now before you say same applies to Cleveland you’re right, but Lebron never won a defensive player of the year award. So really, it comes down to yes it is a convo that can’t be easily dismissed when saying one is clearly better if you’re willing to be objective.


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Lol if you seriously believe the Bulls were better without MJ and that he made no difference because it was the system, then we need to just end this convo right here. This topic shouldn’t even have started, and when it did, it got polluted with dumb shyt like this.


Clearly not what I said but MJ supporters get defensive when you use evidence. But all evidence is on the table when discussing Lebron.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#753 » by spree8 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:38 pm

1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
How did I not do any research if you proved my point? The year following Jordan’s retirement Pippen and Grant 2 of the higher usage players on the Bulls actually improved their fg percentage from the year prior. Yes they scored more ppg, that’s expected but they also still shot the ball efficiently. Not expected when you remove a 30+ ppg scorer (who attracts the most attention) from the team. My argument is Lebron is maligned for not making his teammates better. How is Jordan making his teammates better when his team by the stats you posted are virtually alike year to year. When Lebron left Cleveland we know what happened. So is this a function of the system which I suggested earlier? Because it’s certainly not as simple as just saying wow MJ made his teammates way better than Lebron. The evidence doesn’t support that. Also since you brought up all of the stats why did you neglect defensive rating without Michael. Ironically, the bulls were better statistically WITHOUT MJ. Now before you say same applies to Cleveland you’re right, but Lebron never won a defensive player of the year award. So really, it comes down to yes it is a convo that can’t be easily dismissed when saying one is clearly better if you’re willing to be objective.


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Lol if you seriously believe the Bulls were better without MJ and that he made no difference because it was the system, then we need to just end this convo right here. This topic shouldn’t even have started, and when it did, it got polluted with dumb shyt like this.


Clearly not what I said but MJ supporters get defensive when you use evidence. But all evidence is on the table when discussing Lebron.


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Yea you did. We get defensive when you use evidence? What evidence? There’s 38 pages of evidence from us yet you ignore every ounce of it and keep going with the dumb shyt like you just posted. Cmon man. I’m good on this “debate”... shouldn’t even have fed into it. The poll speaks for itself tho.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#754 » by 1999 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:40 pm

spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:

Lol if you seriously believe the Bulls were better without MJ and that he made no difference because it was the system, then we need to just end this convo right here. This topic shouldn’t even have started, and when it did, it got polluted with dumb shyt like this.


Clearly not what I said but MJ supporters get defensive when you use evidence. But all evidence is on the table when discussing Lebron.


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Yea you did. We get defensive when you use evidence? What evidence? There’s 38 pages of evidence from us yet you ignore every ounce of it and keep going with the dumb shyt like you just posted. Cmon man. I’m good on this “debate”... shouldn’t even have fed into it. The poll speaks for itself tho.


Evidence like “Lebron wouldn’t be able to survive in the 90s”. That’s really the debate y’all wanna have???


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#755 » by spree8 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:42 pm

1999 wrote:
spree8 wrote:
1999 wrote:
Clearly not what I said but MJ supporters get defensive when you use evidence. But all evidence is on the table when discussing Lebron.


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Yea you did. We get defensive when you use evidence? What evidence? There’s 38 pages of evidence from us yet you ignore every ounce of it and keep going with the dumb shyt like you just posted. Cmon man. I’m good on this “debate”... shouldn’t even have fed into it. The poll speaks for itself tho.


Evidence like “Lebron wouldn’t be able to survive in the 90s”. That’s really the debate y’all wanna have???


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If that’s what you got from 38 pages worth of stuff then I dunno what to tell you.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#756 » by nykfan42 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:19 pm

I can't with this guy. I don't have the energy to argue with this brick-wall of a poster. He provides nothing of value to this discussion.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#757 » by robillionaire » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:47 pm

why is this still going on, the discussion ended last week
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#758 » by nykfan42 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:53 pm

robillionaire wrote:why is this still going on, the discussion ended last week

Because we have a troll in our presence.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#759 » by Sprewell4Three » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:20 am

I'm surprised bozos in the media and some fans are still trying to make a case for Lebron. I mean how many times does he have to quit in the playoffs/finals for you guys to understand that he's not better then Michael Jordan? I mean, it's getting ridiculous already. Compare Lebron to Wilt or something. Heck, you can make the argument that he's not even better then Larry Bird.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#760 » by Sprewell4Three » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:21 am

robillionaire wrote:why is this still going on, the discussion ended last week


This discussion ended in the 2011 finals. The chosen one turned into the frozen one. When you have little JJ Barea and Jason Terry giving you fits on defense, there's a problem.

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