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OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

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Who is the GOAT?

Michael Jordan
139
75%
LeBron James
46
25%
 
Total votes: 185

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#761 » by Sprewell4Three » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:22 am

nykfan42 wrote:I can't with this guy. I don't have the energy to argue with this brick-wall of a poster. He provides nothing of value to this discussion.


I haven't read what he's said. Let me guess he's saying that if it wasn't for Scottie Pippen, Jordan wouldn't have any championships ?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#762 » by nykfan42 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:51 am

Sprewell4Three wrote:
nykfan42 wrote:I can't with this guy. I don't have the energy to argue with this brick-wall of a poster. He provides nothing of value to this discussion.


I haven't read what he's said. Let me guess he's saying that if it wasn't for Scottie Pippen, Jordan wouldn't have any championships ?

He "smartly" said that the Bulls, most notably Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, played better offensively the year after MJ retired. Even though the team scored 6 ppg LESS the following season. Also several other foolish posts because he's mad that he has nothing of substance to bring to the discussion.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#763 » by nykfan42 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:56 am

Sprewell4Three wrote:I'm surprised bozos in the media and some fans are still trying to make a case for Lebron. I mean how many times does he have to quit in the playoffs/finals for you guys to understand that he's not better then Michael Jordan? I mean, it's getting ridiculous already. Compare Lebron to Wilt or something. Heck, you can make the argument that he's not even better then Larry Bird.

That's why I don't watch ESPN. That network is so pathetic. Might as well just call it a 24/7 LeBron love fest. All they do is share stats of LeBron passing MJ in another stat forgetting that he plays in more games because he can't close out a series as he collects participation trophies every year.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#764 » by MadGrinch » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:47 pm

GOAT conversations are mostly ridiculous because there is no criteria in which Jordan(and to a lesser extent James) comes out on top unless you are very particular about cherry picking by which standards you settle upon greatness.

if you go by winning , its russell.
if you go by personal dominance its wilt
if you go by stats its kareem
if you go by the burden one must carry to make your team a winner its either wilt or lebron
jordan only comes out on top if you add things that don't matter on the court like sport popularity, money generated , Q ratings and worldwide attention.

and all of these players rate as better defensive players than jordan despite MJ's DPOY(including lebron)

neither player has done enough to rank in the top 2 by any reasonable standard.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#765 » by nykfan42 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:14 pm

LeBron called Durant about joining the Lakers. MJ did that too right? Oh wait no.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#766 » by Greenie » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm

MadGrinch wrote:GOAT conversations are mostly ridiculous because there is no criteria in which Jordan(and to a lesser extent James) comes out on top unless you are very particular about cherry picking by which standards you settle upon greatness.

if you go by winning , its russell.
if you go by personal dominance its wilt
if you go by stats its kareem
if you go by the burden one must carry to make your team a winner its either wilt or lebron
jordan only comes out on top if you add things that don't matter on the court like sport popularity, money generated , Q ratings and worldwide attention.

and all of these players rate as better defensive players than jordan despite MJ's DPOY(including lebron)

neither player has done enough to rank in the top 2 by any reasonable standard.


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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#767 » by Cookies4Life » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:55 pm

I remember starting to watch Michael (and the NBA for that matter) around 1988 so I saw the majority of his career first hand. This was right after he was injured, I think went back to college to finish his degree, and he was coming off one of the highest scoring seasons in the history of the sport- over 37 ppg and he scored over 3000 points in a single season.

His athleticism was otherworldly; I think people forget just how athletic the guy was in his prime. He's arguably the greatest athlete in sports history. His vertical, his hang time ability, his ability to finish around the paint so efficiently even with defenders hanging on to him; he was in his own category in all of those attributes.

Anybody that watched him in his prime would remember at least one jaw dropping play every game. Some crazy 360 layup after being fouled by multiple guys, in game dunks that were probably only rivaled at the time by Dominique Wilkins. The things he was able to do around the paint at a time when the NBA was a very physical league with no hand check rules out in the perimeter was astonishing to watch.

When he got older and his athleticism waned, he was still a freak athlete but learned to master other elements of his offensive game. He was always a good perimeter shooter, but his post up game by around 1993 was on the level of the greatest post players ever. He had this 15-18 foot fadeaway on either elbow that was unguardable because of how far he faded back on his shots. It's remarkable how efficient he was offensively throughout his career given the difficulty level on a good portion of his shots and the type of defense that was played in the 80's and 90's.

He was also a perennial 1st team all NBA defender- including former DPOY- who had such a ridiculously high IQ on that end of the floor and was able to cover 3 positions. Played the passing lanes better than anyone I can remember- and that includes Mo Cheeks and Alvin Robertson.

But what really makes the guy # 1 for me was his competitive streak. He was a very nasty guy by all accounts, didn't really foster good relationships with his teammates. I've never seen a guy with that type of nastiness and will to win. I hated what he did to the bockers for the entire decade of the 90's, there's no doubt in my mind he could've won 8 straight championships had his father not get murdered.

Lebron's longevity can't be denied, but these comparisons to MJ need to stop. I believe Michael was faster, more athletic, more complete offensively, better defensively (maybe not as versatile,) and his mental makeup and competitive nature was on another stratosphere compared to James.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#768 » by 1999 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:58 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:I remember starting to watch Michael (and the NBA for that matter) around 1988 so I saw the majority of his career first hand. This was right after he was injured, I think went back to college to finish his degree, and he was coming off one of the highest scoring seasons in the history of the sport- over 37 ppg and he scored over 3000 points in a single season.

His athleticism was otherworldly; I think people forget just how athletic the guy was in his prime. He's arguably the greatest athlete in sports history. His vertical, his hang time ability, his ability to finish around the paint so efficiently even with defenders hanging on to him; he was in his own category in all of those attributes.

Anybody that watched him in his prime would remember at least one jaw dropping play every game. Some crazy 360 layup after being fouled by multiple guys, in game dunks that were probably only rivaled at the time by Dominique Wilkins. The things he was able to do around the paint at a time when the NBA was a very physical league with no hand check rules out in the perimeter was astonishing to watch.

When he got older and his athleticism waned, he was still a freak athlete but learned to master other elements of his offensive game. He was always a good perimeter shooter, but his post up game by around 1993 was on the level of the greatest post players ever. He had this 15-18 foot fadeaway on either elbow that was unguardable because of how far he faded back on his shots. It's remarkable how efficient he was offensively throughout his career given the difficulty level on a good portion of his shots and the type of defense that was played in the 80's and 90's.

He was also a perennial 1st team all NBA defender- including former DPOY- who had such a ridiculously high IQ on that end of the floor and was able to cover 3 positions. Played the passing lanes better than anyone I can remember- and that includes Mo Cheeks and Alvin Robertson.

But what really makes the guy # 1 for me was his competitive streak. He was a very nasty guy by all accounts, didn't really foster good relationships with his teammates. I've never seen a guy with that type of nastiness and will to win. I hated what he did to the bockers for the entire decade of the 90's, there's no doubt in my mind he could've won 8 straight championships had his father not get murdered.

Lebron's longevity can't be denied, but these comparisons to MJ need to stop. I believe Michael was faster, more athletic, more complete offensively, better defensively (maybe not as versatile,) and his mental makeup and competitive nature was on another stratosphere compared to James.



Jordan was the best from the arguments you stated. Fine. Why the hyperbole in terms of saying he would’ve won 8 straight titles? The fact remains he did not. Jordan was an amazing player by all accounts without adding to his already impressive resume.




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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#769 » by Jalen Bluntson » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:32 pm

1999 wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:I remember starting to watch Michael (and the NBA for that matter) around 1988 so I saw the majority of his career first hand. This was right after he was injured, I think went back to college to finish his degree, and he was coming off one of the highest scoring seasons in the history of the sport- over 37 ppg and he scored over 3000 points in a single season.

His athleticism was otherworldly; I think people forget just how athletic the guy was in his prime. He's arguably the greatest athlete in sports history. His vertical, his hang time ability, his ability to finish around the paint so efficiently even with defenders hanging on to him; he was in his own category in all of those attributes.

Anybody that watched him in his prime would remember at least one jaw dropping play every game. Some crazy 360 layup after being fouled by multiple guys, in game dunks that were probably only rivaled at the time by Dominique Wilkins. The things he was able to do around the paint at a time when the NBA was a very physical league with no hand check rules out in the perimeter was astonishing to watch.

When he got older and his athleticism waned, he was still a freak athlete but learned to master other elements of his offensive game. He was always a good perimeter shooter, but his post up game by around 1993 was on the level of the greatest post players ever. He had this 15-18 foot fadeaway on either elbow that was unguardable because of how far he faded back on his shots. It's remarkable how efficient he was offensively throughout his career given the difficulty level on a good portion of his shots and the type of defense that was played in the 80's and 90's.

He was also a perennial 1st team all NBA defender- including former DPOY- who had such a ridiculously high IQ on that end of the floor and was able to cover 3 positions. Played the passing lanes better than anyone I can remember- and that includes Mo Cheeks and Alvin Robertson.

But what really makes the guy # 1 for me was his competitive streak. He was a very nasty guy by all accounts, didn't really foster good relationships with his teammates. I've never seen a guy with that type of nastiness and will to win. I hated what he did to the bockers for the entire decade of the 90's, there's no doubt in my mind he could've won 8 straight championships had his father not get murdered.

Lebron's longevity can't be denied, but these comparisons to MJ need to stop. I believe Michael was faster, more athletic, more complete offensively, better defensively (maybe not as versatile,) and his mental makeup and competitive nature was on another stratosphere compared to James.



Jordan was the best from the arguments you stated. Fine. Why the hyperbole in terms of saying he would’ve won 8 straight titles? The fact remains he did not. Jordan was an amazing player by all accounts without adding to his already impressive resume.




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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#770 » by Sark » Mon Jul 2, 2018 6:40 pm

Lebron is Going On Another Team.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#771 » by cooch2584 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:44 pm

1999 wrote:
cooch2584 wrote:And MJ would average 50 a game, taking at least 25 fouls shots a game in this time in the NBA. I'm not a MJ or LeBron fan, I'm a Knicks fan since 1967. Yea I'm that old. Remember back in the day there was no hand ck foul, zone defense etc........


Ok so let me ask you this. Is MJ the greatest of all time in your opinion? Forget about Lebron. What makes MJ better than the guys from your era (Jerry West, Wilt, Big Mac, Ice Man, Kareem)?


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I never compared the goat. different times different game altogether. I have seen a LOT of greats but could never call one the goat.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#772 » by CharlesOakley » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#773 » by PeoplesChamp » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:36 pm

blueNorange wrote:lebron james.

i only saw wizards' jordan, but i've seen lebron since day 1 and you can't tell me a shooting guard is better than a point forward.

comparing jordan to kobe makes sense, they play the same position. lebron is positionless. he can play all 5 positions.

the people voting jordan are just tight and salty lebron doesn't want to join this piss run franchise.


I think the people voting MJ actually saw him play. Not just his sneakers. And if you did you'd understand too.

LeBron isn't there yet. But his story is still being written. You'll be able to make his case with longevity & some hefty stats. But with MJ everyone watching just knew. Even opposing fans. It's why he was beloved in the Garden even as he broke us time and time again.

Those arguing for LeBron have to plead his case and dig for points.

MJ's 6-0 in the Finals doesn't make him unreachable. The greatest of all time in anything takes their share of L's. But LeBron is going to need LA to be a helluva final chapter if he's going to win this argument with objective observers.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#774 » by PeoplesChamp » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:40 pm

CharlesOakley wrote:Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT


Solid case to me. I wouldn't argue against Wilt being the GOAT. And he only won 2 rings.

Jordan himself usually names Wilt, Russell, Kareem or Oscar as the GOAT when they ask him.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#775 » by CharlesOakley » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:46 pm

PeoplesChamp wrote:
CharlesOakley wrote:Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT


Solid case to me. I wouldn't argue against Wilt being the GOAT. And he only won 2 rings.

Jordan himself usually names Wilt, Russell, Kareem or Oscar as the GOAT when they ask him.


I heard a story about Wilt arguing with Jordan over who the GOAT was. The argument got more and more heated until Wilt told Jordan, "when you played, they changed the rules to make it easier for you. When I played, they changed the rules to make it harder for me."

When Wilt played they widened the paint, created offensive goaltending and required free throw shooters to release the ball from behind the line (because Wilt could jump from the free throw line and dunk his FTs).
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#776 » by sushibear » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:03 pm

It's gotta be jordan man. He was on another level of success. That name alone could be worth more than the NBA. But I would put lebron 2nd. No one else comes close. Even the older legends I'm sorry
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#777 » by El Poochio » Tue Aug 7, 2018 1:27 am

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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#778 » by spree2kawhi » Tue Aug 7, 2018 8:27 am

LeBron doesn't get past Kobe in my book.
LeBron's defense is vastly overrated while his skill level when compared to Bryant is overrated too. Kobe was a better player of the game, better competitor, much more successful and on worse teams than LeBron for the latter half of his championships.

People like to ride the new school wave when they don't have a clue and while I am just old enough myself to have watched the late Magic Johnson, MJ's championships are still well on my mind.

Maybe Russell or Wilt were greater, but Jordan is definitely out of LeBron's league. Possibly even Shaq and definitely Duncan are to be ranked ahead of LeBron imo.

That would make it Jordan, Russell, Chamberlain, Bryant, Duncan, LeBron/Shaq, then Bird & Magic.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#779 » by spree8 » Tue Aug 7, 2018 11:46 am

CharlesOakley wrote:Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT



My problem with saying Wilt is the Goat, is that he played in an era that’d be equivalent to me playing against a bunch of elementary school kids. Not really fair for a guy his size. I doubt he’d be able to accomplish all he did statistically against the great centers of the 90’s. Bill Russell was smaller than Kevin Durant in height and weight and he gave Wilt problems.

Not taking anything away from them as they both should be ranked at the top in terms of greatness, but when compared to other guys, I can’t just go by what they did in an incredibly weak era.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT? 

Post#780 » by CharlesOakley » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:07 pm

spree8 wrote:
CharlesOakley wrote:Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT



My problem with saying Wilt is the Goat, is that he played in an era that’d be equivalent to me playing against a bunch of elementary school kids. Not really fair for a guy his size. I doubt he’d be able to accomplish all he did statistically against the great centers of the 90’s. Bill Russell was smaller than Kevin Durant in height and weight and he gave Wilt problems.

Not taking anything away from them as they both should be ranked at the top in terms of greatness, but when compared to other guys, I can’t just go by what they did in an incredibly weak era.


You insult an entire generation of NBA players and hall of famers. Shaq played against almost no good centers except for the greats from the 80s who were near retirement (Hakeem destroyed him early in his career). He was also allowed to lower his shoulder and drive into his defender. You don't think a man who was stronger than Shaq, who was more athletic than Shaq, who had a higher vertical than Shaq, who was taller than Shaq and who was much more fit than Shaq couldn't dominate more than Shaq did in his era?

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