OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

[Greenie]

Proud LeBron voter checking in

Check back out.

[spree8]

Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT

My problem with saying Wilt is the Goat, is that he played in an era that’d be equivalent to me playing against a bunch of elementary school kids. Not really fair for a guy his size. I doubt he’d be able to accomplish all he did statistically against the great centers of the 90’s. Bill Russell was smaller than Kevin Durant in height and weight and he gave Wilt problems.

Not taking anything away from them as they both should be ranked at the top in terms of greatness, but when compared to other guys, I can’t just go by what they did in an incredibly weak era.

You insult an entire generation of NBA players and hall of famers. Shaq played against almost no good centers except for the greats from the 80s who were near retirement (Hakeem destroyed him early in his career). He was also allowed to lower his shoulder and drive into his defender. You don't think a man who was stronger than Shaq, who was more athletic than Shaq, who had a higher vertical than Shaq, who was taller than Shaq and who was much more fit than Shaq couldn't dominate more than Shaq did in his era?

How am I insulting an entire generation? Players in the 60’s were much smaller... that’s a fact, not an insult.

Dunno why you're talking about Shaq so much here since I never even mentioned the guy, but I basically said there’s no way Wilt would average fuggin 50 ppg and 25 rpg against the great centers of the 90’s. His biggest test was against a guy the size of Kevin Durant. That’s all I’m sayin.

[CharlesOakley]

How am I insulting an entire generation? Players in the 60’s were much smaller... that’s a fact, not an insult.

Dunno why you're talking about Shaq so much here since I never even mentioned the guy, but I basically said there’s no way Wilt would average fuggin 50 ppg and 25 rpg against the great centers of the 90’s. His biggest test was against a guy the size of Kevin Durant. That’s all I’m sayin.

Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Walt Bellamy
Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed

Wilt played against HoF centers. My reason for bringing up Shaq is that he clearly would have been a dominant force in any era even though he played against mostly weak competition during his career.

WIlt was routinely double and triple teamed before he even caught the ball and star players didn't get special treatment from the refs back then. I see no real argument that a 7 footer who was stronger than Shaq and had a vertical like Mike's wouldn't be totally dominant in any era.

[spree8]

How am I insulting an entire generation? Players in the 60’s were much smaller... that’s a fact, not an insult.

Dunno why you're talking about Shaq so much here since I never even mentioned the guy, but I basically said there’s no way Wilt would average fuggin 50 ppg and 25 rpg against the great centers of the 90’s. His biggest test was against a guy the size of Kevin Durant. That’s all I’m sayin.

Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Walt Bellamy
Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed

Wilt played against HoF centers. My reason for bringing up Shaq is that he clearly would have been a dominant force in any era even though he played against mostly weak competition during his career.

WIlt was routinely double and triple teamed before he even caught the ball and star players didn't get special treatment from the refs back then. I see no real argument that a 7 footer who was stronger than Shaq and had a vertical like Mike's wouldn't be totally dominant in any era.

Wilt played against Kareem when he was in his mid-late 30’s and was averaging like 15ppg those 3 years. He wasn’t dominating at that time.

You’re so fixated on comparing him to Shaq (Shaq was bigger than Wilt btw). Shaq was routinely doubled and tripled too, but by better athletes and better defenses than Wilt was. This isn’t even an argument I’m trying to have (Shaq vs Wilt), and again my point is that Wilt wouldn’t have averaged those crazy stats from the 60’s if he played against guys like Olajuwon, DRob, Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Mutombo, etc on a regular basis.

Dunno why you downplayed Shaq’s competition either cuz he faced some serious low post defenses... Ewing-Oakley-Mason, Twin Towers, Wallace Bros, etc.

But again, Wilt ain’t droppin those crazy numbers against that type of comp... end of story. Would he do really well? Of course he would, but not as good as he did in the 60’s against weak teams.

[magnumt]

Jordan.

Jordan did his **** on a WHOLE ANOTHER LEVEL against HoFers. Legit ones.

The Jazz team alone would've pawned ANY Lebron lead team, and Jordan ripped their hearts out. TWICE!!!

--Mags

[louieOrr]

While Lebron gets his fare share of calls. No one has ever had the refs in their pack pocket as much as MJ and the Bulls. So I think that should be factored in.

As far as the greatest of all time from a ball player standpoint. Im going with Benard King Pre Injury

No but seriously, Don't Magic and Bird belong in the conversation? What about Kobe?

[Greenie]

Jordan.

Jordan did his **** on a WHOLE ANOTHER LEVEL against HoFers. Legit ones.

The Jazz team alone would've pawned ANY Lebron lead team, and Jordan ripped their hearts out. TWICE!!!

--Mags

Stockon and Malon were something SERIOUS.

[magnumt]

Jordan.

Jordan did his **** on a WHOLE ANOTHER LEVEL against HoFers. Legit ones.

The Jazz team alone would've pawned ANY Lebron lead team, and Jordan ripped their hearts out. TWICE!!!

--Mags

Stockon and Malon were something SERIOUS.

Plus they had Hornacek too and some GREAT role players. Jordan still dispatched them twice, and like I said above, those Jazz teams with their efficiency & Defense would've destroyed Lebron's teams.

--Mags

[MadGrinch]

Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT

My problem with saying Wilt is the Goat, is that he played in an era that’d be equivalent to me playing against a bunch of elementary school kids. Not really fair for a guy his size. I doubt he’d be able to accomplish all he did statistically against the great centers of the 90’s. Bill Russell was smaller than Kevin Durant in height and weight and he gave Wilt problems.

Not taking anything away from them as they both should be ranked at the top in terms of greatness, but when compared to other guys, I can’t just go by what they did in an incredibly weak era.

they weren't really shorter at all, at that time the height measurements were done with shoes off ...they now count them with shoes on(they made the change around 1980)

the average height for centers hasn't changed much since the late 50s , most 6'11 centers are under 6'10 with shoes off.

[HarthorneWingo]

Wilt


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[BLACKFEET 2010]

Mike.
It’s amazing to watch Lebron play.
Like video game amazing.
Mike tho....was the baddest man to ever lace em up.
There was literally nothing you could critique about his game and will as a competitor. Lebron has so much we choose to pick apart. Most of it is unfair but he has warts. Mike had none. Sure you could say he wasn’t a three point marksmen but it wasn’t emphasized in those days. He downright dominated within the confines of what the NBA game was and in turn changed not just the NBA or basketball but sports and the world as a whole.
He felt like a cheat code. It never felt like he was half azzing or made a wrong play. By right, HE and not Jerry West should be the logo. I think even Jerry would agree.

Mike. I hate him. He is the best.

[spree8]

Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT and it isn't even close. He retired from the game over 45 years ago and still holds 72 NBA records. Many of these records are considered unbreakable like averaging 23 rebounds for a career, averaging over 50 points for a season, scoring 100 points in a game, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game and scoring more than 50 points 118 times (Jordan had 31).

What the youngsters on here don't understand is, even though Wilt had 78 triple-doubles in his career, he played in an era when they didn't keep stats on blocks or steals. Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker of all-time and would also hold many more unbreakable records if they kept proper stats. As an example, on March 18, 1968, Wilt unofficially had a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks and 11 steals. That one game alone would add the NBA records for blocks and steals to his resume while being the only recorded quintuple-double in NBA history.

Wilt was the most complete player of all-time. He was the most dominant offensive and defensive player of all-time. He could pass, shoot, rebound, block shots, run the floor and score. He had an unstoppable fadeaway jumper. He was the strongest NBA player of all-time and at 7'1" had a 48" vertical. He could run 100 yards in 10 seconds, clear 6'6" in the high jump and throw a shotput over 55 feet.

Wilt == GOAT

My problem with saying Wilt is the Goat, is that he played in an era that’d be equivalent to me playing against a bunch of elementary school kids. Not really fair for a guy his size. I doubt he’d be able to accomplish all he did statistically against the great centers of the 90’s. Bill Russell was smaller than Kevin Durant in height and weight and he gave Wilt problems.

Not taking anything away from them as they both should be ranked at the top in terms of greatness, but when compared to other guys, I can’t just go by what they did in an incredibly weak era.

they weren't really shorter at all, at that time the height measurements were done with shoes off ...they now count them with shoes on(they made the change around 1980)

the average height for centers hasn't changed much since the late 50s , most 6'11 centers are under 6'10 with shoes off.

I obviously wasn’t talking about just centers, hence the “playing against a bunch of elementary school kids” comment... meaning everyone else on the court too. But most if not all centers in the 60’s weren’t the overall size of centers in the 90’s, or nearly as skilled (except Russell).

[MadGrinch]

My problem with saying Wilt is the Goat, is that he played in an era that’d be equivalent to me playing against a bunch of elementary school kids. Not really fair for a guy his size. I doubt he’d be able to accomplish all he did statistically against the great centers of the 90’s. Bill Russell was smaller than Kevin Durant in height and weight and he gave Wilt problems.

Not taking anything away from them as they both should be ranked at the top in terms of greatness, but when compared to other guys, I can’t just go by what they did in an incredibly weak era.

they weren't really shorter at all, at that time the height measurements were done with shoes off ...they now count them with shoes on(they made the change around 1980)

the average height for centers hasn't changed much since the late 50s , most 6'11 centers are under 6'10 with shoes off.

I obviously wasn’t talking about just centers, hence the “playing against a bunch of elementary school kids” comment... meaning everyone else on the court too. But most if not all centers in the 60’s weren’t the overall size of centers in the 90’s, or nearly as skilled (except Russell).

50 years ago there were only 8 teams...so the opposite is true

the average center then was better than now....or the 90s

also almost every year the mvp was a center then

the size difference at other positions wasn't much

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

[spree8]

they weren't really shorter at all, at that time the height measurements were done with shoes off ...they now count them with shoes on(they made the change around 1980)

the average height for centers hasn't changed much since the late 50s , most 6'11 centers are under 6'10 with shoes off.

I obviously wasn’t talking about just centers, hence the “playing against a bunch of elementary school kids” comment... meaning everyone else on the court too. But most if not all centers in the 60’s weren’t the overall size of centers in the 90’s, or nearly as skilled (except Russell).

50 years ago there were only 8 teams...so the opposite is true

the average center then was better than now....or the 90s

also almost every year the mvp was a center then

the size difference at other positions wasn't much

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

is this guy serious???

[MadGrinch]

I obviously wasn’t talking about just centers, hence the “playing against a bunch of elementary school kids” comment... meaning everyone else on the court too. But most if not all centers in the 60’s weren’t the overall size of centers in the 90’s, or nearly as skilled (except Russell).

50 years ago there were only 8 teams...so the opposite is true

the average center then was better than now....or the 90s

also almost every year the mvp was a center then

the size difference at other positions wasn't much

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

is this guy serious???

ok look at it this way .

50 years ago there was nate thurmond , willis reed , walt bellamy ,bill russell wilt chaimberlain
thats 5 hall of fame centers out of 12 teams .

bill russell told a story about john paxson's shot that won jordan a title in 93

in which he said in his time it would never have happened because john paxson wasn't good enough to play in his league because there was only 8 teams so he couldn't have made the shot because he would have been in the stands.

12 man rosters, 8 teams =96 players, no shuttling back and forth to g-league...96 that is it .

not 17 players out of 30 teams =484 , not counting the guys dropped and cut through the season

so yeah , scouting , training methods , coaching are all better

but people haven't grown , they are the same size and once mikan showed how dominant centers could be there was no turning back.

they actually changed the rules since wilts time to make it easier for smaller players to dominate which completely ruins your theory that the big men then weren't any good.

[spree8]

50 years ago there were only 8 teams...so the opposite is true

the average center then was better than now....or the 90s

also almost every year the mvp was a center then

the size difference at other positions wasn't much

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

is this guy serious???

ok look at it this way .

50 years ago there was nate thurmond , willis reed , walt bellamy ,bill russell wilt chaimberlain
thats 5 hall of fame centers out of 12 teams .

bill russell told a story about john paxson's shot that won jordan a title in 93

in which he said in his time it would never have happened because john paxson wasn't good enough to play in his league because there was only 8 teams so he couldn't have made the shot because he would have been in the stands.

12 man rosters, 8 teams =96 players, no shuttling back and forth to g-league...96 that is it .

not 17 players out of 30 teams =484 , not counting the guys dropped and cut through the season

so yeah , scouting , training methods , coaching are all better

but people haven't grown , they are the same size and once mikan showed how dominant centers could be there was no turning back.

they actually changed the rules since wilts time to make it easier for smaller players to dominate which completely ruins your theory that the big men then weren't any good.

Your logic is flawed. And I never said the bigs weren’t any good in the 60’s, but that they weren’t as good as the 90’s. Plus the majority of players were bigger, a better caliber of athletes, and they had a higher overall skill level in the 90’s.

Idc what Bill Russell said about Paxson... anyone can watch a game from the 60’s and a game from the 90’s and see the difference. This isn’t rocket science... the evolution is common knowledge.

[Sark]

is this guy serious???

ok look at it this way .

50 years ago there was nate thurmond , willis reed , walt bellamy ,bill russell wilt chaimberlain
thats 5 hall of fame centers out of 12 teams .

bill russell told a story about john paxson's shot that won jordan a title in 93

in which he said in his time it would never have happened because john paxson wasn't good enough to play in his league because there was only 8 teams so he couldn't have made the shot because he would have been in the stands.

12 man rosters, 8 teams =96 players, no shuttling back and forth to g-league...96 that is it .

not 17 players out of 30 teams =484 , not counting the guys dropped and cut through the season

so yeah , scouting , training methods , coaching are all better

but people haven't grown , they are the same size and once mikan showed how dominant centers could be there was no turning back.

they actually changed the rules since wilts time to make it easier for smaller players to dominate which completely ruins your theory that the big men then weren't any good.

Your logic is flawed. And I never said the bigs weren’t any good in the 60’s, but that they weren’t as good as the 90’s. Plus the majority of players were bigger, a better caliber of athletes, and they had a higher overall skill level in the 90’s.

Idc what Bill Russell said about Paxson... anyone can watch a game from the 60’s and a game from the 90’s and see the difference. This isn’t rocket science... the evolution is common knowledge.

Watch on YouTube

[CharlesOakley]

I obviously wasn’t talking about just centers, hence the “playing against a bunch of elementary school kids” comment... meaning everyone else on the court too. But most if not all centers in the 60’s weren’t the overall size of centers in the 90’s, or nearly as skilled (except Russell).

50 years ago there were only 8 teams...so the opposite is true

the average center then was better than now....or the 90s

also almost every year the mvp was a center then

the size difference at other positions wasn't much

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

is this guy serious???

He provided statistical evidence that players are about an inch taller today than they were in the mid 60s. In the 60s the best teams had 3 or 4 all-stars on them, many of whom went to the hall of fame.

Wilt would lead the league in rebounding and blocks in any era and be the best defensive player in the league. The only real question is how many points would he score against modern defenses.

[spree8]

50 years ago there were only 8 teams...so the opposite is true

the average center then was better than now....or the 90s

also almost every year the mvp was a center then

the size difference at other positions wasn't much

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

is this guy serious???

He provided statistical evidence that players are about an inch taller today than they were in the mid 60s. In the 60s the best teams had 3 or 4 all-stars on them, many of whom went to the hall of fame.

Wilt would lead the league in rebounding and blocks in any era and be the best defensive player in the league. The only real question is how many points would he score against modern defenses.

No he didn’t.. just stop.

[CharlesOakley]

is this guy serious???

He provided statistical evidence that players are about an inch taller today than they were in the mid 60s. In the 60s the best teams had 3 or 4 all-stars on them, many of whom went to the hall of fame.

Wilt would lead the league in rebounding and blocks in any era and be the best defensive player in the league. The only real question is how many points would he score against modern defenses.

No he didn’t.. just stop.

You need to actually make a point and stop thinking you have an airtight argument. A 40-something year old Wilt could still dominate the best the NBA had to offer. [url]

Watch on YouTube

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