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Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks"

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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#201 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:29 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
NYKnicksTAPE wrote:I only want Butler if he’s coming in addition to another star

just Jimmy by himself is meh...not that exciting


jimmy butler alone is not worth it to me.

kd, kawhi, and kyrie are the only players i'd consider using this cap space on solo. in that order. only because of kyrie's extensive injury history despite his relative youth.


i'm of the same feeling. butler on his own is pointless. with kyrie, kp, the young kids we have and a likely top 5 pick. you're basically built to probably be the best team in the east next year. how we accomplish getting him and kyrie i have no idea. not unless you use a bunch of protected future firsts.


trade? sign-and-trade?
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#202 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:31 pm

No more Melo-type trades. They can come via free agency.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#203 » by god shammgod » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:34 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
jimmy butler alone is not worth it to me.

kd, kawhi, and kyrie are the only players i'd consider using this cap space on solo. in that order. only because of kyrie's extensive injury history despite his relative youth.


i'm of the same feeling. butler on his own is pointless. with kyrie, kp, the young kids we have and a likely top 5 pick. you're basically built to probably be the best team in the east next year. how we accomplish getting him and kyrie i have no idea. not unless you use a bunch of protected future firsts.


trade? sign-and-trade?


they lose their best player and they take timmy's contract ? hard to see. seems more likely we trade timmy/lee to a team like houston for ryan anderson. we pay to dump ryan anderson for an expiring. probably cost us two protected future firsts though. because if it was one houston would have done it already i think.

edit - maybe we can get one of those firsts from houston
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#204 » by MaseInYourFace » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:40 pm

FemaleDogPlease wrote:I'm fine with Butler but how are his knees. Guy has tore his meniscus twice now I think.


To boot his playing style is brutal on the knees.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#205 » by TheGreenArrow » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:43 pm

Jimmy butler?? Hard passsss.

Don't be stupid knicks.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#206 » by MaseInYourFace » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:46 pm

2010 wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:I still say what's gonna happen is we'll strike out on all the big names and settle on Kemba


Kemba is still really fuqqin good. Only problem I'd have with signing him is that we realistically are only going to get 2 years of his prime.


So he's not worth signing.

And that is my issue with Butler/Kyrie. They are major injury risks. You cannot reasonably expect them to perform relative to their salary over the life of the contract. I'd rather play it conservatively. KP is already injury-prone and Frank seems to be going through some growing pains with his knees/groin issues as well.


Tend to agree. These two make a lot of sense as that last piece if you feel your team is at that stage. Knicks ain't nor do they look like they'll be anytime soon.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#207 » by DLTGWH » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:46 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
NYKnicksTAPE wrote:I only want Butler if he’s coming in addition to another star

just Jimmy by himself is meh...not that exciting


jimmy butler alone is not worth it to me.

kd, kawhi, and kyrie are the only players i'd consider using this cap space on solo. in that order. only because of kyrie's extensive injury history despite his relative youth.


i'm of the same feeling. butler on his own is pointless. with kyrie, kp, the young kids we have and a likely top 5 pick. you're basically built to probably be the best team in the east next year. how we accomplish getting him and kyrie i have no idea. not unless you use a bunch of protected future firsts.


Signing Jimmy Butler's with others or by himself is hardly pointless. A 28 (soon to be 29) year old all nba defensive stopper who averages an efficient 22+ppg is a great player. And if you've watched the knicks over the last 20 years they've had very few great players.

At the end of the day, either KP, Knox, Mitchell Robinson or this years #1 are going to need to be that alpha #1/#2 along with Jimmy Butler (if they are so fortunate to be in the position to sign him) to become a good team in the East.

And isnt having a "good team" with good, home grown nucleus, the goal? Not sure why its the Golden State Warriors or bust? If none of KP, Knox, Mitchell or this years #1 pan out, then Knicks are DOA anyways
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#208 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:48 pm

DLTGWH wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
jimmy butler alone is not worth it to me.

kd, kawhi, and kyrie are the only players i'd consider using this cap space on solo. in that order. only because of kyrie's extensive injury history despite his relative youth.


i'm of the same feeling. butler on his own is pointless. with kyrie, kp, the young kids we have and a likely top 5 pick. you're basically built to probably be the best team in the east next year. how we accomplish getting him and kyrie i have no idea. not unless you use a bunch of protected future firsts.


Signing Jimmy Butler's with others or by himself is hardly pointless. A 28 (soon to be 29) year old all nba defensive stopper who averages an efficient 22+ppg is a great player. And if you've watched the knicks over the last 20 years they've had very few great players.

At the end of the day, either KP, Knox, Mitchell Robinson or this years #1 are going to need to be that alpha #1/#2 along with Jimmy Butler (if they are so fortunate to be in the position to sign him) to become a good team in the East.

And isnt having a "good team" with good, home grown nucleus, the goal? Not sure why its the Golden State Warriors or bust? If none of KP, Knox, Mitchell or this years #1 pan out, then Knicks are DOA anyways


he's a legit all-star. but he's also aging at a perimeter position (increasingly tough to retain defensive value especially) where we have a team very early in their window of communal development.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#209 » by god shammgod » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:54 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
DLTGWH wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
i'm of the same feeling. butler on his own is pointless. with kyrie, kp, the young kids we have and a likely top 5 pick. you're basically built to probably be the best team in the east next year. how we accomplish getting him and kyrie i have no idea. not unless you use a bunch of protected future firsts.


Signing Jimmy Butler's with others or by himself is hardly pointless. A 28 (soon to be 29) year old all nba defensive stopper who averages an efficient 22+ppg is a great player. And if you've watched the knicks over the last 20 years they've had very few great players.

At the end of the day, either KP, Knox, Mitchell Robinson or this years #1 are going to need to be that alpha #1/#2 along with Jimmy Butler (if they are so fortunate to be in the position to sign him) to become a good team in the East.

And isnt having a "good team" with good, home grown nucleus, the goal? Not sure why its the Golden State Warriors or bust? If none of KP, Knox, Mitchell or this years #1 pan out, then Knicks are DOA anyways


he's a legit all-star. but he's also aging at a perimeter position (increasingly tough to retain defensive value especially) where we have a team very early in their window of communal development.


yeah. it's just the age. were he two years younger i'd look at it different.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#210 » by Capn'O » Thu Aug 9, 2018 4:56 pm

Have I mentioned that 2019 is a pipe dream, we're getting Grant Hill'ed, and we should still have the youth build as our first commitment?
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#211 » by god shammgod » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:02 pm

Capn'O wrote:Have I mentioned that 2019 is a pipe dream, we're getting Grant Hill'ed, and we should still have the youth build as our first commitment?


it is but we've been on the pipe for so long, it's probably too late to get clean.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#212 » by Knicksfan1992 » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:04 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:No more Melo-type trades. They can come via free agency.


Butler AND Kyrie can't come via FA. Well they could but you'd have to purge pretty much the whole roster which defeats your purpose of not giving up anyone in the first place... If you want both you need to trade for one.

Knicks shouldn't give up a Melo type haul for Butler considering the trade that got him to Minnesota wasn't that big of a haul in the first place. Following the template of that offer, the offer that seems the most realistic is:

Frank
Lottery Protected 2019 1st (turns to unprotected in 2020)
Timmy/Enes (whether they prefer getting money off the books with Enes or trying to get the most out of a younger Hardaway)
Charlotte 2nd rounder

for

Butler

we would still have a core of KP, Knox, Lottery pick this year, one of Timmy or Enes and then hopefully Kyrie.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#213 » by Knicksfan1992 » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:08 pm

Capn'O wrote:Have I mentioned that 2019 is a pipe dream, we're getting Grant Hill'ed, and we should still have the youth build as our first commitment?


You have to at least try and get someone before you max out KP that's why 2019 is what they've targeted.

If it doesn't work out, then you better sure as chit hope you nail the pick this year and KP improves or else we're destined for mediocrity if it doesn't.

Mistakes the Knicks made in the past don't apply here. Those past Knicks teams had no foundation to build on when chasing FA's. This one at least has something resembling a foundation. We will see how strong it is this year. Obviously record -wise they'll be weak but your looking for player development and being able to project future roles.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#214 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:18 pm

Capn'O wrote:Have I mentioned that 2019 is a pipe dream, we're getting Grant Hill'ed, and we should still have the youth build as our first commitment?


most likely. so, as a result you think it's better to just waive noah and eat 2019-20? doesn't look like keeping him is a viable option.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#215 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:34 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:No more Melo-type trades. They can come via free agency.


Butler AND Kyrie can't come via FA. Well they could but you'd have to purge pretty much the whole roster which defeats your purpose of not giving up anyone in the first place... If you want both you need to trade for one.

Knicks shouldn't give up a Melo type haul for Butler considering the trade that got him to Minnesota wasn't that big of a haul in the first place. Following the template of that offer, the offer that seems the most realistic is:

Frank
Lottery Protected 2019 1st (turns to unprotected in 2020)
Timmy/Enes (whether they prefer getting money off the books with Enes or trying to get the most out of a younger Hardaway)
Charlotte 2nd rounder

for

Butler

we would still have a core of KP, Knox, Lottery pick this year, one of Timmy or Enes and then hopefully Kyrie.


I'm not giving up Frank. I dunno, man. I think I'd still rather stay the course. I feel like we're pushing it too fast by making 2019 the summer to make our move. I want that one last lottery pick and then see what this group looks like. I'd like to put this off until at least 2020.

Yeah, I know, I got to see both championships and you youngins didn't. But this is where patience is most important. Now if KD wants to come here? Great. Sign him up. But I'm not gutting the roster for any of these cats.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#216 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:46 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
i'm of the same feeling. butler on his own is pointless. with kyrie, kp, the young kids we have and a likely top 5 pick. you're basically built to probably be the best team in the east next year. how we accomplish getting him and kyrie i have no idea. not unless you use a bunch of protected future firsts.


trade? sign-and-trade?


they lose their best player and they take timmy's contract ? hard to see. seems more likely we trade timmy/lee to a team like houston for ryan anderson. we pay to dump ryan anderson for an expiring. probably cost us two protected future firsts though. because if it was one houston would have done it already i think.

edit - maybe we can get one of those firsts from houston


Exactly. It's not worth going through all these machinations at this point.

Just stay the course. Thousand points of light. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.

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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#217 » by Knicksfan1992 » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:49 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:No more Melo-type trades. They can come via free agency.


Butler AND Kyrie can't come via FA. Well they could but you'd have to purge pretty much the whole roster which defeats your purpose of not giving up anyone in the first place... If you want both you need to trade for one.

Knicks shouldn't give up a Melo type haul for Butler considering the trade that got him to Minnesota wasn't that big of a haul in the first place. Following the template of that offer, the offer that seems the most realistic is:

Frank
Lottery Protected 2019 1st (turns to unprotected in 2020)
Timmy/Enes (whether they prefer getting money off the books with Enes or trying to get the most out of a younger Hardaway)
Charlotte 2nd rounder

for

Butler

we would still have a core of KP, Knox, Lottery pick this year, one of Timmy or Enes and then hopefully Kyrie.


I'm not giving up Frank. I dunno, man. I think I'd still rather stay the course. I feel like we're pushing it too fast by making 2019 the summer to make our move. I want that one last lottery pick and then see what this group looks like. I'd like to put this off until at least 2020.

Yeah, I know, I got to see both championships and you youngins didn't. But this is where patience is most important. Now if KD wants to come here? Great. Sign him up. But I'm not gutting the roster for any of these cats.


I get it. Totally valid opinion. Not one I agree with but you wouldn't be wrong building a roster that way...
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#218 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Aug 9, 2018 6:09 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
Butler AND Kyrie can't come via FA. Well they could but you'd have to purge pretty much the whole roster which defeats your purpose of not giving up anyone in the first place... If you want both you need to trade for one.

Knicks shouldn't give up a Melo type haul for Butler considering the trade that got him to Minnesota wasn't that big of a haul in the first place. Following the template of that offer, the offer that seems the most realistic is:

Frank
Lottery Protected 2019 1st (turns to unprotected in 2020)
Timmy/Enes (whether they prefer getting money off the books with Enes or trying to get the most out of a younger Hardaway)
Charlotte 2nd rounder

for

Butler

we would still have a core of KP, Knox, Lottery pick this year, one of Timmy or Enes and then hopefully Kyrie.


I'm not giving up Frank. I dunno, man. I think I'd still rather stay the course. I feel like we're pushing it too fast by making 2019 the summer to make our move. I want that one last lottery pick and then see what this group looks like. I'd like to put this off until at least 2020.

Yeah, I know, I got to see both championships and you youngins didn't. But this is where patience is most important. Now if KD wants to come here? Great. Sign him up. But I'm not gutting the roster for any of these cats.


I get it. Totally valid opinion. Not one I agree with but you wouldn't be wrong building a roster that way...


well, if you don't go 2019 then next stop 2021.
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#219 » by Context » Thu Aug 9, 2018 6:23 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:
Context wrote:this deadline and then next summer will be the true test if our front office has evolved from mediocrity! "Butler- 2018 -missing -meniscus" at 30 million per? "Kyrie- Amare-Stat waiting to happen 2019" at 30 million per? whats wrong with some of you ? stop settling and dig deep and connect with your ability to be patient- PLEASE....

forgive me for the delay- its been a long week for me...
i dont fully get your point
my point is butler and irving are way to risky and even if those guys reamin productive and healthy they dont put us in a position to beat GS.


honestly

be patient meaning what?
meaning, stop deluding ourselves by taking risks that dont put us in a position to genuinely challenge for a chip....

This same summer KP is getting maxed out
so - that means we should gamble so we dont miss a window of maxing out our cap ability- you dont compound a
current problem by adding more- that will ultimately set you back.


are you suggesting if we simply sit by and let Frank, KP and Knox develop without adding max free agents along side were actually going to get somewhere? dont forget money mitch...yes I am and regardless of what our young guys become by 2021 we will have cap room available assuming that we manage our cap properly going forward...

I dont see Frank becoming his best unless he's playing with a Kyrie
If frank needs Kyrie to become his best then I want him traded...I believe he doesnt need anythng but an opportunity and belief in his ability to become his best...
I dont see KP becoming his best unless he's playing with other all star caliber players-
great players dont need other great players to realize their greatness - they need other great player to become a great team and become champions- thers a difference...
I dont know what to expect for Knox and Robinson until they actually play but they are far from sure bet franchise players
agreed but they have the most potential that Ive seen from knick rookie outside of KP in decades...


I think a lot of people look at Phily and see only the bright side
I always saw hinkies vision from day one. what philly has become today - i saw from the very beginning...

that is a franchise who missed more than they hit. they tanked for ages and basically got three players of value out of several top 3 picks. Embed and Smimmons and Saric and perhaps covington. thats not a high % of return for all those picks

"tanked for ages"? come on nolayup...they played the process they way any rebuilding franchise should-and they were successful at it- ...

meanwhile we have 3 lottery picks on this team - not including all the cast aways we've picked up - and Patience to me sounds like expectation of stardom from them- no -not at all...its essentially taking a page out of phillies book...


personally I see KP as a star, Frank as a supporting player and Knox as a great 3rd option with the potential for some all star level play- I disagree...KP can be a franchise level player-frank has all star potential and so does knox- not to mention, knox also has
the clutch gene BUT they all have to put the work in....


IMO you need to swing with guys like Kyrie and Butler - or preferably Kawhi and Kyrie - because that gets you from potentially good to actually good
after all of this suffering I just cant understand any knick kfan who is ok with "actually good". I have no interest mediocrity- if you have get me KD next year then Im all for it- anyone else is treadmill and a waste of cap space and financial resources....
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Re: Joe Budden: "Jimmy Butler wants to join the Knicks" 

Post#220 » by NoLayupRule » Thu Aug 9, 2018 6:50 pm

Context wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:
Context wrote:this deadline and then next summer will be the true test if our front office has evolved from mediocrity! "Butler- 2018 -missing -meniscus" at 30 million per? "Kyrie- Amare-Stat waiting to happen 2019" at 30 million per? whats wrong with some of you ? stop settling and dig deep and connect with your ability to be patient- PLEASE....

forgive me for the delay- its been a long week for me...
i dont fully get your point
my point is butler and irving are way to risky and even if those guys reamin productive and healthy they dont put us in a position to beat GS.


honestly

be patient meaning what?
meaning, stop deluding ourselves by taking risks that dont put us in a position to genuinely challenge for a chip....

This same summer KP is getting maxed out
so - that means we should gamble so we dont miss a window of maxing out our cap ability- you dont compound a
current problem by adding more- that will ultimately set you back.


are you suggesting if we simply sit by and let Frank, KP and Knox develop without adding max free agents along side were actually going to get somewhere? dont forget money mitch...yes I am and regardless of what our young guys become by 2021 we will have cap room available assuming that we manage our cap properly going forward...

I dont see Frank becoming his best unless he's playing with a Kyrie
If frank needs Kyrie to become his best then I want him traded...I believe he doesnt need anythng but an opportunity and belief in his ability to become his best...
I dont see KP becoming his best unless he's playing with other all star caliber players-
great players dont need other great players to realize their greatness - they need other great player to become a great team and become champions- thers a difference...
I dont know what to expect for Knox and Robinson until they actually play but they are far from sure bet franchise players
agreed but they have the most potential that Ive seen from knick rookie outside of KP in decades...


I think a lot of people look at Phily and see only the bright side
I always saw hinkies vision from day one. what philly has become today - i saw from the very beginning...

that is a franchise who missed more than they hit. they tanked for ages and basically got three players of value out of several top 3 picks. Embed and Smimmons and Saric and perhaps covington. thats not a high % of return for all those picks

"tanked for ages"? come on nolayup...they played the process they way any rebuilding franchise should-and they were successful at it- ...

meanwhile we have 3 lottery picks on this team - not including all the cast aways we've picked up - and Patience to me sounds like expectation of stardom from them- no -not at all...its essentially taking a page out of phillies book...


personally I see KP as a star, Frank as a supporting player and Knox as a great 3rd option with the potential for some all star level play- I disagree...KP can be a franchise level player-frank has all star potential and so does knox- not to mention, knox also has
the clutch gene BUT they all have to put the work in....


IMO you need to swing with guys like Kyrie and Butler - or preferably Kawhi and Kyrie - because that gets you from potentially good to actually good
after all of this suffering I just cant understand any knick kfan who is ok with "actually good". I have no interest mediocrity- if you have get me KD next year then Im all for it- anyone else is treadmill and a waste of cap space and financial resources....

I get your points but I dont fully agree

I totally understand the issue with giving max money to kyrie - a player with major injury history and limited defense or passing - but he is the best player available to us unless Kawhi or Durant show some interest.

Butler I dont accept the injury or Thib-years scare. He's always been healthy and productive on both ends. we would be lucky to have such a player.

I personally dont see our best chance of reaching the finals and a title as sitting on young talent and hoping they develop

KP is gonna need to be kept and if we are maxing him we should be looking at spending the remaining cap that same summer to max his potential, IMO

but assume we dont and KP stays and Frank develops and Knox and Robinson look like studs.
best possible case.

Were still not getting anywhere until we develop a winning culture

the east is wide open
Boston, Phily and Toronto are the only good teams. We have the chance to become one and overtake those guys before Chi or whoever else does.

Id prefer to land Durant and Butler but if we can get Kyrie as a free agent I think we have to take the risk

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