Woj Knicks plan to cut Noah - Update Pg 52: Noah Will Be Cut Next Wk

[DOT]

noah's career averages are bad but he also has had shoulder trouble for which he has had surgery(on both shoulders actually )

he has shot as high as .467 from <16 feet before so its not like he doesn't have the ability

if he's healed and regained his shooting touch , he may be able to make them.

i see no harm in letting him try

I don't think you understand how this works

His averages were bad, and then he got shoulder surgery. You're trying to frame his shoulder surgeries as why he shoots bad, but he was never good to begin with, and then he has shoulder issues (which you kinda need to shoot), so he's not gonna magically get better.

And you're cherry picking stats with that .467 number. That year (2012), Noah took 490 field goals over the year, 12% of which were from that range, which is approximately 59 shots. 46.7% of that is 28, so you're saying he can shoot 3s cause over the course of a year he made 28 long 2s. It's further disingenuous when you take into account that that's the outlier year, as he only shot over 40% one other time in his entire career

You can't "regain" something you never had in the first place

ok lets use a bigger shot sample

the 3 years before the season cut short by his 1st shoulder surgery.(2011-2, 2012-13 and 2013-14)

he shot a combined .401, in a total of 319 shots in which time he made 128 long 2's

how many bulls games did you actually watch during that time ?

i watch quite a bit and putting it simply he could make them with regularity

also centers making about 40% of long 2's frequently make the step to making 3 pointers in today's game

marc gasol for example did this under fizdale before he transitioned to a 3 point shooter in 2016-17 he shot a combined .402 on long 2's in the 3 seasons combined previously 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16

am i cherry picking him too?
brook lopez
demarcus cousins
anthony davis
marrisse speights

all players who shot about 40% on long 2's (some above, some below)

maybe its you who doesn't understand

why are you arguing against giving him a chance when there is nothing to lose from it ?

No, it's you who doesn't understand. Volume matters, and all of those players shot a vast amount more long 2s than Noah did. You also don't seem to understand "make them with regularity." In those 3 years, Noah played 210 games. He made 128 of those shots in that time. That means he'd make 3 in every 5 games. Marc Gasol made 110 long 2s in one season in 2015, so nearly 3 times the volume that Noah was making them.

Your argument is like saying that Pau Gasol is a better 3pt shooter than Steph Curry cause Pau's averaged a higher 3pt% over the last 2 years, while ignoring the fact that Curry makes more 3s than Pau takes

And then you finish with a beautiful strawman argument, saying I'm against giving him a chance. I'm not saying don't give him a chance, I'm just explaining to you that he's not gonna magically become a 3pt shooter

[cgf]

noah's career averages are bad but he also has had shoulder trouble for which he has had surgery(on both shoulders actually )

he has shot as high as .467 from <16 feet before so its not like he doesn't have the ability

if he's healed and regained his shooting touch , he may be able to make them.

i see no harm in letting him try

I don't think you understand how this works

His averages were bad, and then he got shoulder surgery. You're trying to frame his shoulder surgeries as why he shoots bad, but he was never good to begin with, and then he has shoulder issues (which you kinda need to shoot), so he's not gonna magically get better.

And you're cherry picking stats with that .467 number. That year (2012), Noah took 490 field goals over the year, 12% of which were from that range, which is approximately 59 shots. 46.7% of that is 28, so you're saying he can shoot 3s cause over the course of a year he made 28 long 2s. It's further disingenuous when you take into account that that's the outlier year, as he only shot over 40% one other time in his entire career

You can't "regain" something you never had in the first place

ok lets use a bigger shot sample

the 3 years before the season cut short by his 1st shoulder surgery.(2011-2, 2012-13 and 2013-14)

he shot a combined .401, in a total of 319 shots in which time he made 128 long 2's

how many bulls games did you actually watch during that time ?

i watch quite a bit and putting it simply he could make them with regularity

also centers making about 40% of long 2's frequently make the step to making 3 pointers in today's game

marc gasol for example did this under fizdale before he transitioned to a 3 point shooter in 2016-17 he shot a combined .402 on long 2's in the 3 seasons combined previously 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16

am i cherry picking him too?
brook lopez
demarcus cousins
anthony davis
marrisse speights

all players who shot about 40% on long 2's (some above, some below)

maybe its you who doesn't understand

why are you arguing against giving him a chance when there is nothing to lose from it ?

Can those of us who live in Chicago and who’s best friend, that we watch Basketball with, is a huge Bulls fan comment?

Cause nah, Jo was never a reliable shooter. That’s just never been the case in his career.

[Clyde_Style]

That's fair.
But you should then also give Phil credit for giving us KP, Frank, Dotson and Kornet too. Will you do that?

We've all done that before to a greater or lesser degree. Phil was a horrible GM and when you give a guy like Noah that kind of contract it is also perfectly fair to assume his talent evaluation skills were shoddy and unprofessional and that those picks were largely due to the scouting staff under Phil. In theory, Phil is responsible for picking KP, but I don't believe he deserves much in the way of credit for it. I will gladly give our European scouting team and perhaps Clarence Gaines more credit than Phil. So that probably is more Kevin Wilson's input than anything.

steve mills was the GM.

and i don't see how we can pick and choose good moves for phil's staff and bad moves for phil. he was the head of basketball operations, so it all reflects on him.

Nah. Like CGF said, Phil was going all emo on KP and threatening to trade him. Phil's put his own ego before talent evaluation time and again.

[cgf]

What's the point in stretching him in September? Why not wait till next summer?

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

[BKlutch]

We've all done that before to a greater or lesser degree. Phil was a horrible GM and when you give a guy like Noah that kind of contract it is also perfectly fair to assume his talent evaluation skills were shoddy and unprofessional and that those picks were largely due to the scouting staff under Phil. In theory, Phil is responsible for picking KP, but I don't believe he deserves much in the way of credit for it. I will gladly give our European scouting team and perhaps Clarence Gaines more credit than Phil. So that probably is more Kevin Wilson's input than anything.

steve mills was the GM.

and i don't see how we can pick and choose good moves for phil's staff and bad moves for phil. he was the head of basketball operations, so it all reflects on him.

Nah. Like CGF said, Phil was going all emo on KP and threatening to trade him. Phil's put his own ego before talent evaluation time and again.

Sad to see when a guy reaches his mature years and becomes less, not more, capable in his judgment and analytic abilities.

[whocares1]

What's the point in stretching him in September? Why not wait till next summer?

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

I think the Knicks are showing us that the guy(s) they want is coming out in 2019.

[BKlutch]

What's the point in stretching him in September? Why not wait till next summer?

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

[Deeeez Knicks]

What's the point in stretching him in September? Why not wait till next summer?

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

Management has mentioned 2019 a number of times. If the plan is to wait or have flexibility then it's def best to wait on Noah because without a doubt that would give us much more flexibility.

Also, I said in but didn't say all in. Stretching Noah wouldn't close the door on '20 or '21 but does move the door a little further in that direction.

[cgf]

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

I think the Knicks are showing us that the guy(s) they want is coming out in 2019.

That's fair, but if the guy(s) they want pass on us in 2019, it's not like we're screwed. The room for a max cat will still be there to chase AD & Giannis in the following summers.

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

They opened the door to make a splash in 2019, but that 6M doesn't prevent us from making a splash in 2020 or 2021. So what's the harm of opening that window a year earlier & taking away other teams' leverage in a Lee or THJr for expiring trade. We no longer need to make a trade to afford Kyrie, so teams won't be able to Morey us this time around.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

without the stretch you are 100% unable to capitalize on 2019 opportunity. that alone might make the stretch worth it. factor in they can't keep noah around the youth and it's a must-do.

the money isn't must-spend, and it's better for 2020 to have that cap space, but i'd rather have a shot at folding in some help next offseason alongside the current youth and incoming picks.

[Clyde_Style]

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

without the stretch you are 100% unable to capitalize on 2019 opportunity. that alone might make the stretch worth it. factor in they can't keep noah around the youth and it's a must-do.

the money isn't must-spend, and it's better for 2020 to have that cap space, but i'd rather have a shot at folding in some help next offseason alongside the current youth and incoming picks.

I'm so hoping they don't go all in in 2019

[cgf]

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

Management has mentioned 2019 a number of times. If the plan is to wait or have flexibility then it's def best to wait on Noah because without a doubt that would give us much more flexibility.

Also, I said in but didn't say all in. Stretching Noah wouldn't close the door on '20 or '21 but does move the door a little further in that direction.

I was jumping off your post since I've seen a number of knicks fans post various iterations of that sentiment.

As for Noah's stretch, it doesn't actually move the door in future years. If we strike out in 2019 we'd still have a max slot in the next two summers & before KP signings his extension is our only chance to add 2 max FAs. So the #s just don't support that assumption; stretching Noah only increases our flexibility & gets him away from our kids ASAFP.

[Jeff Van Gully]

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

without the stretch you are 100% unable to capitalize on 2019 opportunity. that alone might make the stretch worth it. factor in they can't keep noah around the youth and it's a must-do.

the money isn't must-spend, and it's better for 2020 to have that cap space, but i'd rather have a shot at folding in some help next offseason alongside the current youth and incoming picks.

I'm so hoping they don't go all in in 2019

for me it just depends on who. KD? no question. kyrie? kind of have to. same for kawhi. i'm good on pretty much everyone else.

also, see if you can use cap space to take on assets. a la the denver situation this offseason. there tends to be a scenario like that floating around here or there. why not be ready? add to the warchest to increase sustainability.

[BKlutch]

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

without the stretch you are 100% unable to capitalize on 2019 opportunity. that alone might make the stretch worth it. factor in they can't keep noah around the youth and it's a must-do.

the money isn't must-spend, and it's better for 2020 to have that cap space, but I'd rather have a shot at folding in some help next offseason alongside the current youth and incoming picks.

That looks like what Perry is thinking. It limits us in 20 and 21 because we won't be able to sign one of the biggest max free agents, but maybe we're not going to try to do that anyway. This is the kind of decision what will be wrong to half of us and right to the other half, until we see how it turns out. Even though I personally would want the extra $6M in 20 and 21, I have to believe enough in Perry to give him the benefit of the doubt. He may have some plans (yes, haha, actual plans, unlike Phil) that he can't tell everybody about just yet.

[Clyde_Style]

without the stretch you are 100% unable to capitalize on 2019 opportunity. that alone might make the stretch worth it. factor in they can't keep noah around the youth and it's a must-do.

the money isn't must-spend, and it's better for 2020 to have that cap space, but i'd rather have a shot at folding in some help next offseason alongside the current youth and incoming picks.

I'm so hoping they don't go all in in 2019

for me it just depends on who. KD? no question. kyrie? kind of have to. same for kawhi. i'm good on pretty much everyone else.

also, see if you can use cap space to take on assets. a la the denver situation this offseason. there tends to be a scenario like that floating around here or there. why not be ready? add to the warchest to increase sustainability.

I'm not against everything, but have a bad feeling we'll gut the team again to do these kinds of signings. I want these kinds of agents to come without requiring assets to sign them. Otherwise, I'm not down with that. KD signed with GS free and clear. We should only consider truly "free" agents IMO.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

Management has mentioned 2019 a number of times. If the plan is to wait or have flexibility then it's def best to wait on Noah because without a doubt that would give us much more flexibility.

Also, I said in but didn't say all in. Stretching Noah wouldn't close the door on '20 or '21 but does move the door a little further in that direction.

I was jumping off your post since I've seen a number of knicks fans post various iterations of that sentiment.

As for Noah's stretch, it doesn't actually move the door in future years. If we strike out in 2019 we'd still have a max slot in the next two summers & before KP signings his extension is our only chance to add 2 max FAs. So the #s just don't support that assumption; stretching Noah only increases our flexibility & gets him away from our kids ASAFP.

$6.4mil still moves the door and hurts for signing secondary players. It's less money to sign another guy or bring back Burke or Mario if they play well. Even if we sign Kyrie we are still not a contender most likely so really need every dollar.

Plus I think the odds are against signing a legit max in 19. The money could very well be more useful in 20 or 21. I really don't know. But that's why I like keeping the option of letting Noah expire. Or if we need the money can stretch him in the summer

[BKlutch]

Yea, next summer still makes the most sense to me.

But i think the knicks are eager to move on and go in on the 2019 plan.

I’ve read this a few times, and I just don’t understand where this assumption comes from. Yes stretching Noah in September opens the door to make a play in 2019, but it won’t shut the door to make our move in 2020 or 2021 instead. So we’re not committed to, or “all in on”, the 2019 plan.

I think the Knicks are showing us that the guy(s) they want is coming out in 2019.

If you have any trust in Perry and Fizdale (whose opinion is certainly important to Perry and Mills), then you have to believe this and think there's a plan and a reasonable expectation of signing a FA who can help us.

[cgf]

It takes about $6 M off of our cap room in those two latter years. While that isn't devastating, unless we're going to make a splash in 2019, why would we reduce cap space in 20 and 21?

without the stretch you are 100% unable to capitalize on 2019 opportunity. that alone might make the stretch worth it. factor in they can't keep noah around the youth and it's a must-do.

the money isn't must-spend, and it's better for 2020 to have that cap space, but I'd rather have a shot at folding in some help next offseason alongside the current youth and incoming picks.

That looks like what Perry is thinking. It limits us in 20 and 21 because we won't be able to sign one of the biggest max free agents, but maybe we're not going to try to do that anyway. This is the kind of decision what will be wrong to half of us and right to the other half, until we see how it turns out. Even though I personally would want the extra $6M in 20 and 21, I have to believe enough in Perry to give him the benefit of the doubt. He may have some plans (yes, haha, actual plans, unlike Phil) that he can't tell everybody about just yet.

That's not correct, if we don't use the cap space next summer we'll still have a full max slot in 2020 or 2021.

[Thugger HBC]

I still feel they just don't want Noah around this rebuild, as he likely wouldn't accept a role conducive to younger guys learning while they play.

[cgf]

I still feel they just don't want Noah around this rebuild, as he likely wouldn't accept a role conducive to younger guys learning while they play.

That and you don't want any of the kids picking up his love of the night life. I'm actually a Noah fan, loved him for the Gators & he was my favorite Bull, but the man really enjoys himself and we don't need Mitch picking up any of his bad habits.