Knicks - Nets PG

[3toheadmelo]

I can care less about wins. I want to see them to look like they know what they're doing, and look like they're improving. Right now they look the opposite. Knox looks completely lost. Burke and Mudiay can't run an offense, nor play defense. Timmy still can't play D, and has awful shot selection. Mario looks terrible. Frank looks improved, but doesn't have a position. Right now our best players are Kanter and LFT. That's a problem.

Kanter is our best player by far tho.
Part of the reason it looks so bad is Fizdale is playing everyone on the roster to see what he has. It should (hopefully) look better once the rotation is cut down and he starts coaching to win when the season begins.

I don’t think he will be coaching to win early though based on what he has been saying. He wants them to compete regardless of who is out there but it sounds like he will be evaluating for a while line ups for a while.

i said this after when KP went down with his injury, this is the perfect time for us to experiment with a lot of lineups, see what works and what doesn't. it's going to be like that for a while like you said.

and to those complaining about our offense/defense.... it was always going to look not so good because our roster blows. this was already expected too so idk why people acting like this a big surprise.

lastly, it's preseason so people need to calm down.... but knicks realgm will never change lol

[MaseInYourFace]

So the preseason finale came and went with the feel good first two games wiped away by a downward trend. Frank Ntilikina and Mitch Robinson really salvaged things for me as a fan though. We knew this would be potentially ugly and that the focus was on preparing youth for the future when KP comes back, another lottery pick arrives and cap space gives us options to address leftover needs. The thing is...I've been in this place before with Fisher and Hornacek where they say the right things but their actions as coaches don't quite gel. Frank's been the best all around guard for the team and finished preseason guarding Forwards. Mitch and Trier may be seeing more minutes in the G-League than rotation. Meanwhile Knox struggled more than any of those three but has a guaranteed starting spot. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE that concept with Knox. Let the kid take his lumps and learn; but apply that to the rest of the youth too. I think the entire fanbase will be happier that way.

Player Breakdowns in order of rotation based on "you keep what you kill" as a philosophy (aka my opinion on best preseason performers which means Lee doesn't get in):

PG - Frank Ntilikina - Frank is the best defender of the guards and it's not really close (sorry Ron). His defensive versatility has seen him guarding 4 positions and outside of some miscommunications that have happened to every single Knick; Frank's been really good. Last night we saw the continuation of "hey the kid's figuring it out" as Frank drove with confidence and pulled a jumper or two off the dribble as well. While none of the PG's truly separated from the pack; that really plays to Frank's advantage anyway. He's got the most upside, the best contract and the least years on planet Earth compared to his competition. For a tank team this feels like a no brainer. Yes, he's gonna make mistakes, but there's palpable growth in mindset and confidence out there. Plus developing him into a PG gives him more versatility than having him guard small ball PF's imho. 9 pts, 5 asts, 4 boards in 30 minutes of quality play

SG - Tim Hardaway - The fact that I bounced back and forth between Trier and Hardaway on this pick is an indictment of Timmy. But he's turned up his shooting in the last two games for a team that desperately needs some 3 pointers. 7/14 for 18 points last night. What else did he contribute you ask? Some trash talk in Levert's ear after letting the guy shoot back to back open three's and one rebound. This is consistently my complaint about THJ, he's paid too much to just score. His defense was subpar, he didn't create for anybody, didn't spark much in transition and didn't get boards. Still...he's stretching the floor and we need that.

SF - Knox - Luckily for Kevin Knox, his competition at starting SF has been Mario Hezonja. If Fiz was trotting a healthy Courtney Lee out then "keep what you kill" would mean Knox having a seat. That's not to say I'm down on him though. The tools are all there, the range is gonna take time to adjust to and I feel like it's pretty clear that the game is moving fast for him. He's hesitating and thinking on some plays, out of control on others. But as the reps build, the game will slow down and his athleticism will become more apparent. The more worrisome thing about him so far has been defense. Fiz can't let him off the hook on defense just for being young and a prize pick. I expect the mistakes but I hope to see improvement and better engagement going forward.

PF - Lance Thomas - That's right, hell hath frozen over. I've spent the better part of Lance's second contract complaining about him trying to do too much and ruining the intangibles that he brings. But in the preseason, Lance has been fairly under control. His game is still as ugly as ever but it's been effective. This team needs a defensive captain, especially if Hardaway and Knox are gonna be guarding the wings. One thing I'd say though, I'm not so sure that Frank/THJ/Lee/Knox/Kanter isn't a better set up for Knox to succeed early. Especially since Lance isn't a rim protector or defensive rebounder anyway and Courtney Lee knows defense but brings more offensively.

C - Kanter - He had a strong start and then sat out two games to let it really sink in. Kanter is functionally the difference between competitive rebound battles and losing the battle outright. He's our only consistent post presence as well. Then add to that, he's an energy guy whose offensive boards and putbacks can spark or hang on to momentum. He's earned it even when he's been out.

6th Man - Allonzo Trier - Trey Burke's return to Earth this preseason has been compounded by Trier playing a similar style more effectively and with more size. While Burke has been the better defender, his height still makes him a liability. Trier meanwhile has been better at getting to the line and with the exception of last night the rookie has been pretty damned efficient via trips to the line offsetting some of his shot selection. The shot selection is shoddy though. He's got the Crawford effect, looking of an open man to take a contested jumper but making it. His defense is also pretty disappointing but it seems more awareness than effort. Like Knox, Fiz needs to be on him about that defense.

First Big - Mitch Robinson - With his preseason cut in half by an ankle injury, Mitch left the door open for Noah Vonleh to make this a debate. But the difference Mitch brings is in shotblocking presence and pace. Mitch is looking tired after half a quarter because he's always going at high speed and jumping hard. For a guy who needs the weight room, he also plays physical ball when it's time to compete for boards. His screen setting game needs a gang of work and his defensive positioning leaves plenty to be desired, but again...more reps ought to improve that. He tallied 7 pts, 4 boards and 3 assists with just one foul in 17 minutes last night which is all really promising. He also blocked another three point shooter at distance, dunked multiple times and added an emphatic rejection on a driving player. Give this kid all the rope he needs.

Next Guard - Damyean Dotson - Sure this is a controversial pick. But I've already established that I'm not a fan of pairing Trier and Burke in the backcourt. One guy Isos a couple of times and then the other feels compelled to match it. If the first isolation doesn't work the kick out leads to another isolation and everything feels stagnant. So Dotson gets the nod here as a better defender than Burke, a better floor spacer and a guy who has made his touches count every game. 7 points, 3 boards and an assist in 13 minutes on 3/4 shooting...he's been doing this all preseason and could become the replacement for all that Courtney Lee provides.

9th Man - Mario Hezonja - He did not have a good preseason but flashed all the tools that make people want to try and make him work. Then in the second half of last night's game, he had a "put everything together" moment that showed his upside. 14 points, 3 boards and an assist in 19 minutes where he actually picked the right times to shoot, slash or pass consistently! Defensively he's even further away than Knox but not by much. Either way though, his jack of all trades master of none skillset is useful off the bench in a way others won't be.

Third Big - Vonleh - Big men get in foul trouble and Mitch is liable to foul out in some first halves if we let him. So the fact that Noah Vonleh has shown a lot of legitimate promise is a good thing. He's gonna give you a frustrating offensive foul TO or two when he gets minutes, but he also brings the physicality that Knicks fans like. Vonleh had 13 pts, 5 boards and 3 assists in 19 minutes on 5/7 last night. I feel some similarities to KOQ as he can shoot it when left alone and he makes up for the passing difference with better ball handling than Kyle had. Honestly, there's plenty of case for him to pass up Mitch but youth, upside and contract status wins out for me.

Waiting for his chance - Trey Burke - Guaranteed some readers didn't make it this far because they feel like I disrespected Burke. All I'll say is, what has this season done to his ceiling in your eyes? He's a limited player who needs touches to be effective and his attack zone is midrange. In an offense that shares the ballhandling and without being a particularly creative playmaker; I don't see the value of playing this dude over Frank or Trier. He's an expiring contract too. The real value of Burke though is in keeping everyone honest. If Trier gets really bad on shot selection or Frank is looking down on himself, then Burke isn't just a viable option to take over and spell them but he could become a spark. I have a feeling Fiz pegged him as the starter and will disappointed if he's rewarded for what I truly felt was a disappointing preseason. 9 pts, 3 asts on 3/7 in 21 minutes last night and his lightest defensive effort of the preseason as well.

Emotional Support Sub - Ron Baker - People love effort and he gives it. The Knicks lack plus defenders and he offers that. The guards mostly need the rock and he doesn't. But Ron Baker is a limited player. 4 pts, 3 boards and 2 assists in 19 minutes as the starting PG doesn't give me much hype. He could be a glue piece, I fully admit that, but there is so much more upside to developing a guy like Dotson for that role.

The Gimmick - Luke Kornet - There is one circumstance where Luke Kornet is useful...you need to space the floor 1-5. He can hit three's from well behind the line. That's his one skill and it's useful in the modern NBA. But everything else is somewhere between subpar and average. Case in point? 3/4 from three last night in 8 minutes and he contributed absolutely NOTHING else. 9 points in 8 minutes is amazing but it's garbage time buckets and he has to offer more than that to be my kinda big.

See You in April - Hicks - Barely played last night and did nothing; but let's not let that erase his preseason. He showed improvements pretty much everywhere. Was it enough to make a roster? No. Is he still trying to become an end of bench value player? Yes. But he went from "wtf" to "hey he's more athletic than I thought" and I expect him to do well in the G-League this year.

Last Thoughts - Just like I don't want Fiz to let players off the hook; I really hope the fans don't let Fiz off the hook. He pushed a merit based rotation and I'd like to see him at least put together one that is rational and fits with what he promised us. That's not to say, "he didn't start my guy and I'm mad" but to say "you said we'd focus on defense...where is that?" If his starting line-up has four subpar defenders (Burke/THJ/Knox/Kanter).

Per your notes, after Frank, I'd also be prioritizing Dotson more highly. While Dot may not be a great player, he is a two-way player.

I'm pretty sick of offense only players in general, so in my mind the agenda of the club should be development of any worthwhile players who bring it on both ends.

On that basis, I'd even emphasize Baker over Burke and Trier in terms of minute allocation.

To me, Trier should be explored to see if he can adapt to become a more well-rounded player since he has more size than Burke.

TBH, I don't see any long-term future with Burke so I don't really care if he plays or not. Clyde was wrong.

Mudiay can sit.

I'd hesitate to call Baker a two way player. He's been pretty terrible offensively as a pro.

[Jonathan starks]

So the preseason finale came and went with the feel good first two games wiped away by a downward trend. Frank Ntilikina and Mitch Robinson really salvaged things for me as a fan though. We knew this would be potentially ugly and that the focus was on preparing youth for the future when KP comes back, another lottery pick arrives and cap space gives us options to address leftover needs. The thing is...I've been in this place before with Fisher and Hornacek where they say the right things but their actions as coaches don't quite gel. Frank's been the best all around guard for the team and finished preseason guarding Forwards. Mitch and Trier may be seeing more minutes in the G-League than rotation. Meanwhile Knox struggled more than any of those three but has a guaranteed starting spot. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE that concept with Knox. Let the kid take his lumps and learn; but apply that to the rest of the youth too. I think the entire fanbase will be happier that way.

Player Breakdowns in order of rotation based on "you keep what you kill" as a philosophy (aka my opinion on best preseason performers which means Lee doesn't get in):

PG - Frank Ntilikina - Frank is the best defender of the guards and it's not really close (sorry Ron). His defensive versatility has seen him guarding 4 positions and outside of some miscommunications that have happened to every single Knick; Frank's been really good. Last night we saw the continuation of "hey the kid's figuring it out" as Frank drove with confidence and pulled a jumper or two off the dribble as well. While none of the PG's truly separated from the pack; that really plays to Frank's advantage anyway. He's got the most upside, the best contract and the least years on planet Earth compared to his competition. For a tank team this feels like a no brainer. Yes, he's gonna make mistakes, but there's palpable growth in mindset and confidence out there. Plus developing him into a PG gives him more versatility than having him guard small ball PF's imho. 9 pts, 5 asts, 4 boards in 30 minutes of quality play

SG - Tim Hardaway - The fact that I bounced back and forth between Trier and Hardaway on this pick is an indictment of Timmy. But he's turned up his shooting in the last two games for a team that desperately needs some 3 pointers. 7/14 for 18 points last night. What else did he contribute you ask? Some trash talk in Levert's ear after letting the guy shoot back to back open three's and one rebound. This is consistently my complaint about THJ, he's paid too much to just score. His defense was subpar, he didn't create for anybody, didn't spark much in transition and didn't get boards. Still...he's stretching the floor and we need that.

SF - Knox - Luckily for Kevin Knox, his competition at starting SF has been Mario Hezonja. If Fiz was trotting a healthy Courtney Lee out then "keep what you kill" would mean Knox having a seat. That's not to say I'm down on him though. The tools are all there, the range is gonna take time to adjust to and I feel like it's pretty clear that the game is moving fast for him. He's hesitating and thinking on some plays, out of control on others. But as the reps build, the game will slow down and his athleticism will become more apparent. The more worrisome thing about him so far has been defense. Fiz can't let him off the hook on defense just for being young and a prize pick. I expect the mistakes but I hope to see improvement and better engagement going forward.

PF - Lance Thomas - That's right, hell hath frozen over. I've spent the better part of Lance's second contract complaining about him trying to do too much and ruining the intangibles that he brings. But in the preseason, Lance has been fairly under control. His game is still as ugly as ever but it's been effective. This team needs a defensive captain, especially if Hardaway and Knox are gonna be guarding the wings. One thing I'd say though, I'm not so sure that Frank/THJ/Lee/Knox/Kanter isn't a better set up for Knox to succeed early. Especially since Lance isn't a rim protector or defensive rebounder anyway and Courtney Lee knows defense but brings more offensively.

C - Kanter - He had a strong start and then sat out two games to let it really sink in. Kanter is functionally the difference between competitive rebound battles and losing the battle outright. He's our only consistent post presence as well. Then add to that, he's an energy guy whose offensive boards and putbacks can spark or hang on to momentum. He's earned it even when he's been out.

6th Man - Allonzo Trier - Trey Burke's return to Earth this preseason has been compounded by Trier playing a similar style more effectively and with more size. While Burke has been the better defender, his height still makes him a liability. Trier meanwhile has been better at getting to the line and with the exception of last night the rookie has been pretty damned efficient via trips to the line offsetting some of his shot selection. The shot selection is shoddy though. He's got the Crawford effect, looking of an open man to take a contested jumper but making it. His defense is also pretty disappointing but it seems more awareness than effort. Like Knox, Fiz needs to be on him about that defense.

First Big - Mitch Robinson - With his preseason cut in half by an ankle injury, Mitch left the door open for Noah Vonleh to make this a debate. But the difference Mitch brings is in shotblocking presence and pace. Mitch is looking tired after half a quarter because he's always going at high speed and jumping hard. For a guy who needs the weight room, he also plays physical ball when it's time to compete for boards. His screen setting game needs a gang of work and his defensive positioning leaves plenty to be desired, but again...more reps ought to improve that. He tallied 7 pts, 4 boards and 3 assists with just one foul in 17 minutes last night which is all really promising. He also blocked another three point shooter at distance, dunked multiple times and added an emphatic rejection on a driving player. Give this kid all the rope he needs.

Next Guard - Damyean Dotson - Sure this is a controversial pick. But I've already established that I'm not a fan of pairing Trier and Burke in the backcourt. One guy Isos a couple of times and then the other feels compelled to match it. If the first isolation doesn't work the kick out leads to another isolation and everything feels stagnant. So Dotson gets the nod here as a better defender than Burke, a better floor spacer and a guy who has made his touches count every game. 7 points, 3 boards and an assist in 13 minutes on 3/4 shooting...he's been doing this all preseason and could become the replacement for all that Courtney Lee provides.

9th Man - Mario Hezonja - He did not have a good preseason but flashed all the tools that make people want to try and make him work. Then in the second half of last night's game, he had a "put everything together" moment that showed his upside. 14 points, 3 boards and an assist in 19 minutes where he actually picked the right times to shoot, slash or pass consistently! Defensively he's even further away than Knox but not by much. Either way though, his jack of all trades master of none skillset is useful off the bench in a way others won't be.

Third Big - Vonleh - Big men get in foul trouble and Mitch is liable to foul out in some first halves if we let him. So the fact that Noah Vonleh has shown a lot of legitimate promise is a good thing. He's gonna give you a frustrating offensive foul TO or two when he gets minutes, but he also brings the physicality that Knicks fans like. Vonleh had 13 pts, 5 boards and 3 assists in 19 minutes on 5/7 last night. I feel some similarities to KOQ as he can shoot it when left alone and he makes up for the passing difference with better ball handling than Kyle had. Honestly, there's plenty of case for him to pass up Mitch but youth, upside and contract status wins out for me.

Waiting for his chance - Trey Burke - Guaranteed some readers didn't make it this far because they feel like I disrespected Burke. All I'll say is, what has this season done to his ceiling in your eyes? He's a limited player who needs touches to be effective and his attack zone is midrange. In an offense that shares the ballhandling and without being a particularly creative playmaker; I don't see the value of playing this dude over Frank or Trier. He's an expiring contract too. The real value of Burke though is in keeping everyone honest. If Trier gets really bad on shot selection or Frank is looking down on himself, then Burke isn't just a viable option to take over and spell them but he could become a spark. I have a feeling Fiz pegged him as the starter and will disappointed if he's rewarded for what I truly felt was a disappointing preseason. 9 pts, 3 asts on 3/7 in 21 minutes last night and his lightest defensive effort of the preseason as well.

Emotional Support Sub - Ron Baker - People love effort and he gives it. The Knicks lack plus defenders and he offers that. The guards mostly need the rock and he doesn't. But Ron Baker is a limited player. 4 pts, 3 boards and 2 assists in 19 minutes as the starting PG doesn't give me much hype. He could be a glue piece, I fully admit that, but there is so much more upside to developing a guy like Dotson for that role.

The Gimmick - Luke Kornet - There is one circumstance where Luke Kornet is useful...you need to space the floor 1-5. He can hit three's from well behind the line. That's his one skill and it's useful in the modern NBA. But everything else is somewhere between subpar and average. Case in point? 3/4 from three last night in 8 minutes and he contributed absolutely NOTHING else. 9 points in 8 minutes is amazing but it's garbage time buckets and he has to offer more than that to be my kinda big.

See You in April - Hicks - Barely played last night and did nothing; but let's not let that erase his preseason. He showed improvements pretty much everywhere. Was it enough to make a roster? No. Is he still trying to become an end of bench value player? Yes. But he went from "wtf" to "hey he's more athletic than I thought" and I expect him to do well in the G-League this year.

Last Thoughts - Just like I don't want Fiz to let players off the hook; I really hope the fans don't let Fiz off the hook. He pushed a merit based rotation and I'd like to see him at least put together one that is rational and fits with what he promised us. That's not to say, "he didn't start my guy and I'm mad" but to say "you said we'd focus on defense...where is that?" If his starting line-up has four subpar defenders (Burke/THJ/Knox/Kanter).

Per your notes, after Frank, I'd also be prioritizing Dotson more highly. While Dot may not be a great player, he is a two-way player.

I'm pretty sick of offense only players in general, so in my mind the agenda of the club should be development of any worthwhile players who bring it on both ends.

On that basis, I'd even emphasize Baker over Burke and Trier in terms of minute allocation.

To me, Trier should be explored to see if he can adapt to become a more well-rounded player since he has more size than Burke.

TBH, I don't see any long-term future with Burke so I don't really care if he plays or not. Clyde was wrong.

Mudiay can sit.

I'd hesitate to call Baker a two way player. He's been pretty terrible offensively as a pro.

Dotson also isn’t a two way player, and neither is lance

[Clyde_Style]

I'd hesitate to call Baker a two way player. He's been pretty terrible offensively as a pro.

My point was he is not a liability on offense as long as the team is doing well offensively when he is on the floor because he can floor general. We've seen the team play well under his guidance and that is an important attribute on the offensive end.

That more than offsets his lack of personal offensive production. Yet he can still end up being a mid-forties three point shooter as there is nothing wrong with his stroke. But since he has no lift he is always going to struggle to finish in traffic.

Over time I do think he can be a guy who can hold down the fort at PG when needed while having the presence of mind to produce potentially key winning plays down the stretch.

Baker's smart and rugged, has a very good wingspan at his size, is sometimes quite disruptive on defense, is a stable influence on offense and is a good teammate. Guys like that do matter.

[j4remi]

Since Burke was NEVER a PG, I do think Trier came in and basically made Burke obsolete for THIS team. That does not mean Burke cannot bring value elsewhere, but Trier will be better than him with some small potential to expand his game (not banking on that though).

I don't necessarily see Baker here after his deal expires, but in terms of offense there's more to it than whether he can make his own shot. Many times that Baker has run the point this team has gone on runs in the past because he actually knows what he's doing even if he is not a plus creator. I think Baker's +/- on the floor could easily exceed a guy like Burke when you add in his defensive effort. So I know it is a long shot, but I would not discount the possibility that Baker does mature into a solid long-term bench player who is a legit back-up PG. People always sell him short and I don't even if his ceiling is not high.

I don't think you can trade Mudiay. You cut him. Burke you can trade for a 2nd rounder.

So I basically agree that Trier can be emphasized over Baker, but only that Baker is wrongfully overlooked as a potentially stable part of the bench in ways I simply do not see Burke or Mudiay becoming. He may always be the 4th or 5th guard on a squad, but that can still be valuable sometimes and people do go down.

Right now, I'd put development priorities in this order:

Frank
Trier
Dotson
Baker

Trade Burke
Cut Mudiay

I see what you mean on Baker for sure. I definitely think he can be a complimentary player in a way that a guy like Burke/THJ/Trier could thrive next too since he doesn't need the ball but knows how to be useful without it. Plus, like you said, he can actually cover for their defense somewhat and that's something that'll always help keep up even if he's not scoring. I'm definitely down for cut Mudiay and trade Burke, but I can understand Fiz wanting to experiment with him in different combinations before committing to that plan.

[j4remi]

I'd hesitate to call Baker a two way player. He's been pretty terrible offensively as a pro.

Dotson also isn’t a two way player, and neither is lance

I'm similar on Baker, but I get what Clyde means. Even on offense, he does the dirty work that keeps him from doing damage as long as you limit his role.

On Dotson, I'm not sure that he's ready for a 3 and D role, but I think this is a good time to find out or see if he can grow into that. Lance, I've always joked about because of his offense but honestly this preseason in a vacuum...he wasn't bad.

[Clyde_Style]

Since Burke was NEVER a PG, I do think Trier came in and basically made Burke obsolete for THIS team. That does not mean Burke cannot bring value elsewhere, but Trier will be better than him with some small potential to expand his game (not banking on that though).

I don't necessarily see Baker here after his deal expires, but in terms of offense there's more to it than whether he can make his own shot. Many times that Baker has run the point this team has gone on runs in the past because he actually knows what he's doing even if he is not a plus creator. I think Baker's +/- on the floor could easily exceed a guy like Burke when you add in his defensive effort. So I know it is a long shot, but I would not discount the possibility that Baker does mature into a solid long-term bench player who is a legit back-up PG. People always sell him short and I don't even if his ceiling is not high.

I don't think you can trade Mudiay. You cut him. Burke you can trade for a 2nd rounder.

So I basically agree that Trier can be emphasized over Baker, but only that Baker is wrongfully overlooked as a potentially stable part of the bench in ways I simply do not see Burke or Mudiay becoming. He may always be the 4th or 5th guard on a squad, but that can still be valuable sometimes and people do go down.

Right now, I'd put development priorities in this order:

Frank
Trier
Dotson
Baker

Trade Burke
Cut Mudiay

I see what you mean on Baker for sure. I definitely think he can be a complimentary player in a way that a guy like Burke/THJ/Trier could thrive next too since he doesn't need the ball but knows how to be useful without it. Plus, like you said, he can actually cover for their defense somewhat and that's something that'll always help keep up even if he's not scoring. I'm definitely down for cut Mudiay and trade Burke, but I can understand Fiz wanting to experiment with him in different combinations before committing to that plan.

Right, Baker is a guy who offsets players like Burke or Trier, whomever of which stays. I could see a Baker/Burke 2nd unit backcourt working for example.

As far as Mudiay is concerned, it is still early. It is reasonable to expect management and coaches to give that experiment some regular season games to play out. And that is why we can expect instability and flux in the roster in terms of rotation and minutes until they make up their minds about who to develop or shop and who to cut.

Though I'm not sure who gets the axe to bring the roster to 15 after waiving Noah. Perhaps Mudiay does get let go then, but from the sounds of it they are going to give him some more rope.

I expect this mess to clear itself out mostly by game 20. Then you should see players like Frank being less affected by the spillover effect of sorting out the roster. If Fiz can't make up his mind by then and Frank is still being toyed with, then I'll be concerned.

For now, I can roll with anything in the name of evaluation. Fiz just has to stop boxing himself in with stupid memes.

[GONYK]

Per your notes, after Frank, I'd also be prioritizing Dotson more highly. While Dot may not be a great player, he is a two-way player.

I'm pretty sick of offense only players in general, so in my mind the agenda of the club should be development of any worthwhile players who bring it on both ends.

On that basis, I'd even emphasize Baker over Burke and Trier in terms of minute allocation.

To me, Trier should be explored to see if he can adapt to become a more well-rounded player since he has more size than Burke.

TBH, I don't see any long-term future with Burke so I don't really care if he plays or not. Clyde was wrong.

Mudiay can sit.

The way Fiz talked before preseason I️ thought this would be the case, but actions speak louder than words and I️ haven’t seen that so far . Wishful thinking has me believing it may be to showcase players for trades, but I️ ‘m doubting that now. We won’t be able to outoffense teams at the top, so the way to go is with defense. If they don’t play D, get rid of them. Find as many two way players as you can.

This is why slick talk can become a problem.

You NEVER say "Eat what you kill" unless you really mean it. It sounded cool so he said it. His mouth gets ahead of his logic.

The core reason it was a bad thing to say so early is (a) coaching requires flexibility and the ability to make ad hoc changes on the fly and (b) he had too many question marks to sort out early so putting that constraint on himself now as a coach was a mistake. It infects the minds of the players and instantly seeds doubt about how the coach determines merit.

He needs to tone it down and stick to a few simple memes and leave the complexities to installing concepts during practices and in-game coaching.

As you're saying, he should MEME the crap out of "Play defense or you sit". That's enough and it is way more viable than Eat what you kill which sets himself up for failure as a coach.

The reason it sets him up is this:

I can see many reasons why a coach would start someone with less merit for a stretch of games if the coach feels starting that player is a test or audition to stick with the club and/or earn their spot in the rotation.

You can't do that AND say eat what you kill.

So, basically, Fiz is simultaneously saying he's sorting out the roster while jiving the merit angle and that doesn't work. He should free himself up as a coach to basically do WTF he feels he needs to do without creating justifications that box him in.

Fiz boxed himself in. He still has some growing up to do as a coach.

Bingo.

Fiz claimed he was operating a meritocracy where defense was the operative metric.

If he rewards the exact opposite, then he has a credibility issue.

[Jonathan starks]

I'd hesitate to call Baker a two way player. He's been pretty terrible offensively as a pro.

Dotson also isn’t a two way player, and neither is lance

I'm similar on Baker, but I get what Clyde means. Even on offense, he does the dirty work that keeps him from doing damage as long as you limit his role.

On Dotson, I'm not sure that he's ready for a 3 and D role, but I think this is a good time to find out or see if he can grow into that. Lance, I've always joked about because of his offense but honestly this preseason in a vacuum...he wasn't bad.

You have to take preseason with a grain of salt. The good players aren’t playing heavy minutes and the coaches are running vanilla offenses. Lance has looked good, but I’m highly skeptical he can keep it up. His whole career, besides his Knick career, he’s never even gotten playing time. The only reason why he gets playing time here is that we’re an awful team and he’s the consummate professional

[amsterdamknicks]

After all the dust settles we’ll have a starting line up of:
Frank
Reddish
Knox
Porzingis
Mitchell

And you WILL like it


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met RealGM Forums

[IllmaticHandler]

Kanter is our best player by far tho.
Part of the reason it looks so bad is Fizdale is playing everyone on the roster to see what he has. It should (hopefully) look better once the rotation is cut down and he starts coaching to win when the season begins.

I don’t think he will be coaching to win early though based on what he has been saying. He wants them to compete regardless of who is out there but it sounds like he will be evaluating for a while line ups for a while.

i said this after when KP went down with his injury, this is the perfect time for us to experiment with a lot of lineups, see what works and what doesn't. it's going to be like that for a while like you said.

and to those complaining about our offense/defense.... it was always going to look not so good because our roster blows. this was already expected too so idk why people acting like this a big surprise.

lastly, it's preseason so people need to calm down.... but knicks realgm will never change lol

so why you always complain about THJ. its to be expected as well....why you acting like its a big surprise...

sit your ass down. you just want to have something to say

[AllanHoustonFan]

I don’t think he will be coaching to win early though based on what he has been saying. He wants them to compete regardless of who is out there but it sounds like he will be evaluating for a while line ups for a while.

i said this after when KP went down with his injury, this is the perfect time for us to experiment with a lot of lineups, see what works and what doesn't. it's going to be like that for a while like you said.

and to those complaining about our offense/defense.... it was always going to look not so good because our roster blows. this was already expected too so idk why people acting like this a big surprise.

lastly, it's preseason so people need to calm down.... but knicks realgm will never change lol

so why you always complain about THJ. its to be expected as well....why you acting like its a big surprise...

sit your ass down. you just want to have something to say

You stay sonning 3toheadmelo man

[IllmaticHandler]

i said this after when KP went down with his injury, this is the perfect time for us to experiment with a lot of lineups, see what works and what doesn't. it's going to be like that for a while like you said.

and to those complaining about our offense/defense.... it was always going to look not so good because our roster blows. this was already expected too so idk why people acting like this a big surprise.

lastly, it's preseason so people need to calm down.... but knicks realgm will never change lol

so why you always complain about THJ. its to be expected as well....why you acting like its a big surprise...

sit your ass down. you just want to have something to say

You stay sonning 3toheadmelo man

Im not sonning Melo. This all Love. Dont read to deep into this. Me and Melo cool

[nedleeds]

I'd hesitate to call Baker a two way player. He's been pretty terrible offensively as a pro.

Dotson also isn’t a two way player, and neither is lance

I'm similar on Baker, but I get what Clyde means. Even on offense, he does the dirty work that keeps him from doing damage as long as you limit his role.

On Dotson, I'm not sure that he's ready for a 3 and D role, but I think this is a good time to find out or see if he can grow into that. Lance, I've always joked about because of his offense but honestly this preseason in a vacuum...he wasn't bad.

I also would like to see if Dotson can be a rotation NBA player. Take the first half of the year to make him the first wing off the bench. He can push the ball a little also. His off the catch jumper visually looks pretty good, he's just never had the chance to shoot 5-6 catch and shoots a game.

PG - Frank
SG - Tim Chuckaway Jr
SF - Knox
PF - LFT
C - Robinson

Would be my preference. I see zero value in starting Kanter other than thin optics. But if they want to start him for 8 minutes because he tweets alot then I guess fine. I guess playing him a bit means a team suffering an injury might be idiotic enough to take him for matching expiring and a second. Same with Lee, keep him healthy and hope a competitive team needs a rotation plus defender wing who can shoot.

First Guards - Baker / Burke
First Wings - Mario / Dotson
First Bigs - Noah Vonleh / Kanter

Scrubs - Kornet, Lee (not an actual scrub but keep him healthy), Noah McYachtparty (great contract for trade matching can just go hang out in the gulf all year).

Plus KP that's 15 players. I'd also keep THJr on a short leash, he is so bad for the other players around him when he starts chucking 38 foot cinder blocks and sucks on defense.

Cut Mudiay, Hicks immediately. Get the tank on the road to 0-82.

[3toheadmelo]

I don’t think he will be coaching to win early though based on what he has been saying. He wants them to compete regardless of who is out there but it sounds like he will be evaluating for a while line ups for a while.

i said this after when KP went down with his injury, this is the perfect time for us to experiment with a lot of lineups, see what works and what doesn't. it's going to be like that for a while like you said.

and to those complaining about our offense/defense.... it was always going to look not so good because our roster blows. this was already expected too so idk why people acting like this a big surprise.

lastly, it's preseason so people need to calm down.... but knicks realgm will never change lol

so why you always complain about THJ. its to be expected as well....why you acting like its a big surprise...

sit your ass down. you just want to have something to say

[Wolfgang630]

After all the dust settles we’ll have a starting line up of:
Frank
Reddish
Knox
Porzingis
Mitchell

And you WILL like it


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met RealGM Forums

I don’t watch college to know who’s good, but as of now those 4 and whoever college player we draft should be the 5th starter, if all goes well.

This is what our long term future should be built. We need to get the starting lineup decided. Not sure if any free agent will come here unless KP comes back and plays great and Knox shows free agents how high his potential is.

[IllmaticHandler]

i said this after when KP went down with his injury, this is the perfect time for us to experiment with a lot of lineups, see what works and what doesn't. it's going to be like that for a while like you said.

and to those complaining about our offense/defense.... it was always going to look not so good because our roster blows. this was already expected too so idk why people acting like this a big surprise.

lastly, it's preseason so people need to calm down.... but knicks realgm will never change lol

so why you always complain about THJ. its to be expected as well....why you acting like its a big surprise...

sit your ass down. you just want to have something to say

[j4remi]

I'm similar on Baker, but I get what Clyde means. Even on offense, he does the dirty work that keeps him from doing damage as long as you limit his role.

On Dotson, I'm not sure that he's ready for a 3 and D role, but I think this is a good time to find out or see if he can grow into that. Lance, I've always joked about because of his offense but honestly this preseason in a vacuum...he wasn't bad.

You have to take preseason with a grain of salt. The good players aren’t playing heavy minutes and the coaches are running vanilla offenses. Lance has looked good, but I’m highly skeptical he can keep it up. His whole career, besides his Knick career, he’s never even gotten playing time. The only reason why he gets playing time here is that we’re an awful team and he’s the consummate professional

Absolutely, I'm not saying Lance is suddenly a transformed player but he has shown some new wrinkles that I'm thinking he can keep regardless of the level of competition. Namely a bit of improvement in his ball handling that means he can keep his head up. I think that'll keep the crazy baseline charges and chucks down as long as he's not given too many minutes...15 mpg is the sweetspot and once you get past 20 mpg I feel like you can feel his value fading (barring spot minutes to specifically defend somebody).

[thebuzzardman]

Just watched the highlights. Yeah, it's the NBA, but Burke gets beat off the dribble a LOT. Quite a few plays where someone other than his man scored because help had to come over to get Burkes man near the hoop.

Also, THJr and Trier lead the team in just leaving 3 point shooters open.

that can't be true. fiz said all ou guards are doing a good job on d and that thj was really getting after it and was pushing the whole team to play better on that end

Show me one play where Tim left someone open on a three. He got clipped on a couple plays where there should have been a switch. He had a solid game defensively

If you can't see that THJr is lazy closing out on 3's, not sure what to tell you.

Not every 3. But he's good for giving up 3-4 wide open looks a game. That's like 6-9 points THJr has to score over the guy he's defending to just be a wash on the court. Trouble is, he may or may not match his matchup in scoring, or need 17-20 shots to do it.

Sorry. He was a sh*tty investment at 17 million per, for 4 years, and a trade kicker.

Players who just leap out at me watching games for defensive badness:
Knox - slow closing out on 3 point shooters, routinely beat off the dribble, takes bad angles on defenders
THJr - slow closing out on 3 point shooters often.
Burke - beat off the dribble regularly
Mario - all of the above
Trier - takes plays off defensively, slow to close out on 3 point shooters, also takes bad angles at times

Special mention: Vonleh - good man to man, quickly gets lost if the ball is passed even once. Like, Kanter bad.

[Jonathan starks]

that can't be true. fiz said all ou guards are doing a good job on d and that thj was really getting after it and was pushing the whole team to play better on that end

Show me one play where Tim left someone open on a three. He got clipped on a couple plays where there should have been a switch. He had a solid game defensively

If you can't see that THJr is lazy closing out on 3's, not sure what to tell you.

Not every 3. But he's good for giving up 3-4 wide open looks a game. That's like 6-9 points THJr has to score over the guy he's defending to just be a wash on the court. Trouble is, he may or may not match his matchup in scoring, or need 17-20 shots to do it.

Sorry. He was a sh*tty investment at 17 million per, for 4 years, and a trade kicker.

Well I agree that so far he’s looking like a bad investment, but I think you’re kind of exaggerating his defensive deficiencies. Wide open threes happen for many different reasons. It’s usually has nothing to do with players not staying with their man. Tim is decent in guarding in space and he’s good at staying in front of his man. Now KP isn’t good at close outs. He sucks at guarding in space.