CELTICS/KNICKS PG THREAD

[god shammgod]

fiz seems mostly interested in players that can create shots for themselves. because he runs an offense that really only allows them to score. everything is self generated. you call for a screen, you either take the shot or look to attack. if neither are available you pass to someone else who does the same thing or back to the screener so you can get the ball back. if you don't take it upon yourself to create for yourself you won't have many opportunities to score. it actually encourages selfishness. and if you're built that way, you'll get more opportunities. and if you're not, you won't.

[whocares1]

It’s probably not the only plan but it’s a likely reality. Also regardless of whether they are here next year, they are here now. Almost everyone here agrees the minutes should go to the guys with the future but that’s not realistic. This is real life not 2k, where you can just make cold, calculated decisions like that this early. Egos and emotions have to managed. The players should develop better if everyone feels involved and valued. If they just toss the short term guys to the side why would they bother working hard during practice or worry about helping their young teammates adjust to the league?

then our front office should be fired. We aren't a good team now and paying the same guys more money to come back would be an ultimate failure.

Let me ask you this question. If the kings called up the knicks today and offered Zach Randolph and Iman Shumpert for THjr and Trey Burke...do you think our front office would accept?

No, unfortunately I don’t think they would. Mills sees some value in THJ. The window for the Knicks to be competitive in the east is way smaller than people want to admit. It’s clear to me what direction they want to go in but even though I might not fully agree there is nothing the fans can do about it. Y’all can complain but at a certain point its just endless screaming into the void.

Frank at PG
KP at Center
Reduced minutes/shots for Burke and THJ

Sure all those things would be ideal but so would winning that 1.6 billion dollar powerball.

KP at center is definitely doable. Everything else probably not unless Tim and Burke truly struggle.

[Wolfgang630]

I don't know what people want. Frank is not showing Fizzle the PG skills he's looking for. He sees Burke good enough for PG. It's not like we got a plethora of great options at PG. If Frank ain't showing it and if Fiz doesn't think Frank is PG material then we're stuck. Nothing will change. If Burke disappears into thin air, then maybe that'd for Fizzes hand to move Frank to PG or he might move Trier there.

[3toheadmelo]

another 36 pages of frank

[mpharris36]

I don't know what people want. Frank is not showing Fizzle the PG skills he's looking for. He sees Burke good enough for PG. It's not like we got a plethora of great options at PG. If Frank ain't showing it and if Fiz doesn't think Frank is PG material then we're stuck. Nothing will change. If Burke disappears into thin air, then maybe that'd for Fizzes hand to move Frank to PG or he might move Trier there.

oh I don't know...for the knicks not to be stupid...

[mpharris36]

another 36 pages of frank

actually it started about Tim's horrible shot selection and the offense or lack there of that we are running...it came back to Frank well because he's the easy target...

[fatalogic]

then our front office should be fired. We aren't a good team now and paying the same guys more money to come back would be an ultimate failure.

Let me ask you this question. If the kings called up the knicks today and offered Zach Randolph and Iman Shumpert for THjr and Trey Burke...do you think our front office would accept?

No, unfortunately I don’t think they would. Mills sees some value in THJ. The window for the Knicks to be competitive in the east is way smaller than people want to admit. It’s clear to me what direction they want to go in but even though I might not fully agree there is nothing the fans can do about it. Y’all can complain but at a certain point its just endless screaming into the void.

Frank at PG
KP at Center
Reduced minutes/shots for Burke and THJ

Sure all those things would be ideal but so would winning that 1.6 billion dollar powerball.

I think you are an intelligent poster who is pretty grounded.

That has to be a depressing conclusion to reach.

I think my expectations are in line with what they have shown. They clearly don’t believe in the 76ers approach but at least they have done some things that show growth in terms of team development. Once they can sustain basic team competence then I will start expecting more from them. They seem to think they can develop their way out of the talent deficit so I’m willing to give them a little time to see it through even though I think the odds of it working out are slim.

[GONYK]

fiz seems mostly interested in players that can create shots for themselves. because he runs an offense that really only allows them to score. everything is self generated. you call for a screen, you either take the shot or look to attack. if neither are available you pass to someone else who does the same thing or back to the screener so you can get the ball back. if you don't take it upon yourself to create for yourself you won't have many opportunities to score. it actually encourages selfishness. and if you're built that way, you'll get more opportunities. and if you're not, you won't.

So it's Hornacek's offense?

[thebuzzardman]

you can't be fully invested in giving your young players every opportunity to work and develop and also fully invested in trying to win every game. you just can't. the knicks as a franchise have often had competing purposes at play.

In fairness, in trying to elevate the play of the young guys, they have to earn at least some of their time and under those circumstances, you have to give the young vets a chance, which is what THJr or Burke are. Even Kanter. Though I think he plays based on effort and the fact he's really the only viable C on the roster. Well, Vonleh has shown some flashes. Not enough to start.

I'm all for going all in on the youngest guys, but I think as long as they see time and also - this is important - do their minutes increase as their effectiveness does? I mean, Trier has played himself from the bubble making the team to rotation minutes.

So a subplot to watch is does he cut into THJr's minutes more - within reason, as most rookies can't handle more than 24-28 mpg anyway.
Does Frank cut into some of Burke's minutes at PG, if he stays aggressive and his shot is falling enough
Does MRob and Knox cut into LFT and Kanter minutes?

And so on.

Also, a little off topic, but I'm coming around to the semi conspiratorial idea that Mills just doesn't like Frank as a PG, plus maybe combined with some back channel noise from Kemba or Kyrie and the move to stick him at wing is based both on the first inclination (remember, Mills shows an eagerness to put his 'stamp' on the team by IMMEDIATELY undoing the Phil move of THJr and throwing the bank at him) but also based on strong feeling they'll be signing a scoring PG in FA.

Feels like a Knicks/Mills move to say "We wanted to pair a strong veteran PG with KP to make the playoffs". Fits several Knick tendencies:

Taking a shortcut, even if it's only by a year - but a crucial year or two.
Taking a quick stab at playoff contention in a weak east when longer contention could be had by waiting another year or two
The win now/soon as possible mindset that's been around the Knicks when Mills is in charge.

Hey, I'm not even sure about what I'm writing here. Just throwing it out there. Feels like it could be true.

Time will tell.

[Wolfgang630]

I don't know what people want. Frank is not showing Fizzle the PG skills he's looking for. He sees Burke good enough for PG. It's not like we got a plethora of great options at PG. If Frank ain't showing it and if Fiz doesn't think Frank is PG material then we're stuck. Nothing will change. If Burke disappears into thin air, then maybe that'd for Fizzes hand to move Frank to PG or he might move Trier there.

oh I don't know...for the knicks not to be stupid...

Of course that’s what I want that too, but how many times have we had that in the past almost 2 decades?

[fatalogic]

then our front office should be fired. We aren't a good team now and paying the same guys more money to come back would be an ultimate failure.

Let me ask you this question. If the kings called up the knicks today and offered Zach Randolph and Iman Shumpert for THjr and Trey Burke...do you think our front office would accept?

No, unfortunately I don’t think they would. Mills sees some value in THJ. The window for the Knicks to be competitive in the east is way smaller than people want to admit. It’s clear to me what direction they want to go in but even though I might not fully agree there is nothing the fans can do about it. Y’all can complain but at a certain point its just endless screaming into the void.

Frank at PG
KP at Center
Reduced minutes/shots for Burke and THJ

Sure all those things would be ideal but so would winning that 1.6 billion dollar powerball.

KP at center is definitely doable. Everything else probably not unless Tim and Burke truly struggle.

For me it’s not about doable or not it’s has the organization shown any indication they are thinking about those things. I think long term KP will become a Center but I’m not holding my breath at it happening any time soon. It really depends on how he comes back from the ACL and who is on the team.

[thebuzzardman]

fiz seems mostly interested in players that can create shots for themselves. because he runs an offense that really only allows them to score. everything is self generated. you call for a screen, you either take the shot or look to attack. if neither are available you pass to someone else who does the same thing or back to the screener so you can get the ball back. if you don't take it upon yourself to create for yourself you won't have many opportunities to score. it actually encourages selfishness. and if you're built that way, you'll get more opportunities. and if you're not, you won't.

So it's Hornacek's offense?

Even Hornacek's offense had more ball movement, even though it wasn't that great an offense.

[mpharris36]

I don't know what people want. Frank is not showing Fizzle the PG skills he's looking for. He sees Burke good enough for PG. It's not like we got a plethora of great options at PG. If Frank ain't showing it and if Fiz doesn't think Frank is PG material then we're stuck. Nothing will change. If Burke disappears into thin air, then maybe that'd for Fizzes hand to move Frank to PG or he might move Trier there.

oh I don't know...for the knicks not to be stupid...

Of course that’s what I want that too, but how many times have we had that in the past almost 2 decades?

my point, but I will never be content with incompetence

[god shammgod]

fiz seems mostly interested in players that can create shots for themselves. because he runs an offense that really only allows them to score. everything is self generated. you call for a screen, you either take the shot or look to attack. if neither are available you pass to someone else who does the same thing or back to the screener so you can get the ball back. if you don't take it upon yourself to create for yourself you won't have many opportunities to score. it actually encourages selfishness. and if you're built that way, you'll get more opportunities. and if you're not, you won't.

So it's Hornacek's offense?

basically. but at a faster pace.

[thebuzzardman]

you don't like that idea....

if they play well - we lose because our draft pick is worse
if they play well - we might resign them for more money and they eat into our cap space.

then the only people that truly lose is us because we will be watching crap for the next 10-15 years.

This is true, but this wouldn’t be the first colossal failure of a season. Last year was bad and the year before that was worse.

we agree on all accounts here...but I thought we were told we wouldn't be "skipping" any steps.

I'd say the Knicks are going to skip at least one step.

I'd like to be wrong.

History says I'll probably be right.

[thebuzzardman]

fiz seems mostly interested in players that can create shots for themselves. because he runs an offense that really only allows them to score. everything is self generated. you call for a screen, you either take the shot or look to attack. if neither are available you pass to someone else who does the same thing or back to the screener so you can get the ball back. if you don't take it upon yourself to create for yourself you won't have many opportunities to score. it actually encourages selfishness. and if you're built that way, you'll get more opportunities. and if you're not, you won't.

So it's Hornacek's offense?

basically. but at a faster pace.

They need to show Frank the McDermott highlight reel so he can cut instead of staying glued in the corner.

Unless, of course, that's been asked by the coach.

[whocares1]

fiz seems mostly interested in players that can create shots for themselves. because he runs an offense that really only allows them to score. everything is self generated. you call for a screen, you either take the shot or look to attack. if neither are available you pass to someone else who does the same thing or back to the screener so you can get the ball back. if you don't take it upon yourself to create for yourself you won't have many opportunities to score. it actually encourages selfishness. and if you're built that way, you'll get more opportunities. and if you're not, you won't.

So it's Hornacek's offense?

No Hornacek turned into a half court mid range strategist. He was so focused on how bad the defense was that he slowed down the pace to stop as much transition baskets as he could. Fiz offense is quick thinking and fast moving. More screens and threes than Jeff. Better defense because of effort and because of their off-season fitness. Most offenses in this league run better with players that can create their own shot. It’s not crazy.

[Deeeez Knicks]

The priority of the offense is definitely pace which explains Burke at PG and why Fiz likes the idea of Frank as a secondary ball handler.

The problem is we will never have great ball movement with Burke/Timmy/Lance/Kanter on the floor, no matter what system or who the coach is.

[Wolfgang630]

oh I don't know...for the knicks not to be stupid...

Of course that’s what I want that too, but how many times have we had that in the past almost 2 decades?

my point, but I will never be content with incompetence

That’s why it’s up to Frank now to tell Fiz “look **** I’m a PG and you need to play me there”. He’s got to stand up and tell. Stop playing good soldier and speak up man.

Look at KP. KP comes out and says “no I’m not the 5. I’m playing the 4 because I like it there”. Hell even Melo did it. Speak up and show it. Someone has to correct the incompetence. Unless Mills or someone has some vendetta against Frank because he was Phil’s pick idk.

[Knicksfan1992]

I don't really understand what the majority of you are watching... This offense looks nothing like Hornacek's offense. Like not one bit... Trey Burke's shot share should automatically be a clue that this is just a totally different offense. A lot more read and react off-ball scenarios. A lot more DHO's. Way more pindown screens than Horny ever ran. The only really iso plays we're seeing are Enes post ups and honestly he's been pretty damn efficient at them so I don't have any complaints there.