KNICKS/DEER PG THREAD

[HarthorneWingo]

Carmelo Anthony apologizing to the coaching staff after accidentally taking a long 2 "my bad". I want to see Fiz make guys account for their own mistakes just like that!

Maybe our players apologize for their bad shots privately?

That could be the case...but repeating the same bad habits next game? Its like going to the church to pray for forgiveness then do something devious afterwards. That is insincerity.

No, that's called having fun.

[thebuzzardman]

I feel like this is at the heart of the negativity surrounding him right now. It's a lot easier to improve his decision making than the holes in his defense. I can forgive him struggling against Levert or Middleton on defense much more easily than I can look past a leaning double-clutch jumper that he has to release on the way down to squeeze under Giannis but over Bledsoe. He can't be giving away possessions AND going under every screen though.

There has to be accountability for him to improve though.

Bud provided it and got results. We'll have to see if Fiz is interested in doing the same.

Bud had Milsap and Schroder to take more shots around him.

It's not about the amount of shots. It's about the quality of them. Some of them are just giving away possessions. Bad shots that are wasted possessions and also a wasted opportunity for another teammate to be involved. Again, THJr has been good, has been asked to carry the scoring load on a team that doesn't really have "that guy". But we aren't talking about a questionable shot here and there. It's like 5 a game. It would do a lot for him and the team if he reigned it in a bit. Maybe once the team is more comfortable in the half court and there are more obvious passes to be made, he'll make some more. We shall see.

Again, it's another topic sort of being discussed to death because Fiz is doing a pretty solid job of going with youth etc, so there's focus on this. Also, probably a subtext is people wanted coach Bud, or at least a contingent were interested, who's a good coach who PROVED he could reign in and unlock THJr. I'm way past any disappointment there and I like Fiz, but any coach who is hired is going to have people looking at like 5 things? Playing the youth, their development, how are offensive sets, defense and effort and accountability - and particularly around THJr, as people know he's a guy who needs that.

[thebuzzardman]

That’s not what Tim thinks. That’s what matters because he feels comfortable taking more than 20 shots a game.

Part of a coach's responsibility is to clarify that for him

Getting a star on the court next to him again will put him back in his place as well. So it doesn't really matter how we get his usage down to where it should be. What matters is that as long as he's the 2nd or (preferably) 3rd option, he's a perfectly fine starter...especially if he really has improved his 3pt shooting.

I'm just going to point out that that while KP may not be a "star", JR was putting up a few bad shots a game with KP on the floor too.

Obviously less, as he shot less. I mean, I guess #2 option THJr is not as bad as #1 option THJr, so if the Knicks add another player of KP stature, maybe #3 option THJr solves the issues.

I'd still like him to play a little more under control.

It's only 4 games, Fiz may solve it yet, and some of it is usage rate. Something to talk about. He's been good, otherwise.

[BKlutch]

I don't dislike Fiz. I certainly dislike how he's handling certain things though.

I just think that at some point, there needs to be actual structure and discipline put in place offensively.

I don't see how that is unreasonable. If "winning is a habit", then the process should be implemented and results should be the byproduct.

Right now, letting players chuck is chasing results over winning habits.

I hope at some point he turns his focus to the offense.

In other words, I expect the coach to coach.

There's a lot for Fiz to teach. Some were not in college. Some are rookies. Some have failed so far in the NBA. Nobody was a star in the NBA. Some have bad habits.

There's a shyt ton to teach.

What is Fiz doing?

#1 he's trying to teach defensive intensity.

it takes a long time.

#2 he's trying to teach offensive effort

It takes time

#3 he's teaching how to run plays to guys who don't really do that yet

It takes time

#4 he will teach advanced offensive techniques.

It takes time

Our guys can't learn all of this as fast as we'd like. They need to fall down and get up a hundred times before they get better. This is the essence of the rebuild. We were happy after the draft because we knew we'd have a long learning curve and probably earn a good draft pick while our guys are being molded into a real team.

You know what?

It takes time.

It takes time

I openly acknowledge all that. I'm not asking for advanced offensive schemes.

I'm asking to sit Tommy for a few minutes when he chucks.

That's a pretty instant feedback loop.

If he's given a kick in the but as he's being pulled, I'd like that.

[GONYK]

There's a lot for Fiz to teach. Some were not in college. Some are rookies. Some have failed so far in the NBA. Nobody was a star in the NBA. Some have bad habits.

There's a shyt ton to teach.

What is Fiz doing?

#1 he's trying to teach defensive intensity.

it takes a long time.

#2 he's trying to teach offensive effort

It takes time

#3 he's teaching how to run plays to guys who don't really do that yet

It takes time

#4 he will teach advanced offensive techniques.

It takes time

Our guys can't learn all of this as fast as we'd like. They need to fall down and get up a hundred times before they get better. This is the essence of the rebuild. We were happy after the draft because we knew we'd have a long learning curve and probably earn a good draft pick while our guys are being molded into a real team.

You know what?

It takes time.

It takes time

I openly acknowledge all that. I'm not asking for advanced offensive schemes.

I'm asking to sit Tommy for a few minutes when he chucks.

That's a pretty instant feedback loop.

If he's given a kick in the but as he's being pulled, I'd like that.

We're on the same page

[whocares1]

There has to be accountability for him to improve though.

Bud provided it and got results. We'll have to see if Fiz is interested in doing the same.

Bud had Milsap and Schroder to take more shots around him.

It's not about the amount of shots. It's about the quality of them. Some of them are just giving away possessions. Bad shots that are wasted possessions and also a wasted opportunity for another teammate to be involved. Again, THJr has been good, has been asked to carry the scoring load on a team that doesn't really have "that guy". But we aren't talking about a questionable shot here and there. It's like 5 a game. It would do a lot for him and the team if he reigned it in a bit. Maybe once the team is more comfortable in the half court and there are more obvious passes to be made, he'll make some more. We shall see.

Again, it's another topic sort of being discussed to death because Fiz is doing a pretty solid job of going with youth etc, so there's focus on this. Also, probably a subtext is people wanted coach Bud, or at least a contingent were interested, who's a good coach who PROVED he could reign in and unlock THJr. I'm way past any disappointment there and I like Fiz, but any coach who is hired is going to have people looking at like 5 things? Playing the youth, their development, how are offensive sets, defense and effort and accountability - and particularly around THJr, as people know he's a guy who needs that.

He wasn’t an 18 million dollar player on the Hawks. Bud helped Tim get that contract(in actuality Mills is just an idiot), but he’s asked to do more here than over there. Bud did a good job, but Tim wanted to be more than just a role player and that’s something Bud would’ve never allowed. The only person that should reign him in is himself. He needs to realize those weird shots he takes is a bad look. He’s vastly more talented than many imagined but he needs to play smarter.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

[Capn'O]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

[GONYK]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

That's understandable, but I would argue that that is putting results over process though.

[cuyankees]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

OMG, the light...

Shine it bright!

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

I think that is somewhat true, but the biggest problem I have with the narrative that Timmy should shoot more because we don't have a better option is that it assumes the shots he's taking are better than other shots we could get from a lesser player. And I take issue with that. Tim may be better than anyone else on the team at making bad shots, but that doesn't mean a bad shot from him is a better option than a worse player taking a better shot.

[Clyde_Style]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

I think that is somewhat true, but the biggest problem I have with the narrative that Timmy should shoot more because we don't have a better option is that it assumes the shots he's taking are better than other shots we could get from a lesser player. And I take issue with that. Tim may be better than anyone else on the team at making bad shots, but that doesn't mean a bad shot from him is a better option than a worse player taking a better shot.

That's right. While he may be the alpha scorer by default right now, when he repeatedly veers into heatcheck territory he takes away shots from other players who may then have a better shot opportunity. And that has nothing to do with whether the other teammate who gets the ball being a less proficient scorer, but about playing the game of basketball as a team. He gets away from team ball too often to not get called out for it.

[Capn'O]

The fact that many are arguing that Tim would be more efficient if he had better scorers in front of him (so he won't feel like he has to shoot so much) just supports the idea that he's best suited as a 6th man.

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

That's understandable, but I would argue that that is putting results over process though.

In one respect, I would argue the opposite. The results are going to be worse with him taking those shots. The process is that there's supposed to be somebody in the offense creating in that role that isn't Timmy but he's the best facsimile we have. In that regard, it puts the players into defined roles knowing that this iteration will be a failure.

In another - this does inhibit other players from stepping into that role. Knox is the guy I would have taking on the primary option role, but he's currently hurt. Maybe Mario/Wario?

[Capn'O]

Also, don't get it twisted. Timmy is not at all suited to being a primary option in the NBA, both in terms of his abilities and decision making.

[GONYK]

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

That's understandable, but I would argue that that is putting results over process though.

In one respect, I would argue the opposite. The results are going to be worse with him taking those shots. The process is that there's supposed to be somebody in the offense creating in that role that isn't Timmy but he's the best facsimile we have. In that regard, it puts the players into defined roles knowing that this iteration will be a failure.

In another - this does inhibit other players from stepping into that role. Knox is the guy I would have taking on the primary option role, but he's currently hurt. Maybe Mario/Wario?

I would think, in an ideal world, there is nobody consistently in that role. The offense should flow without anyone feeling the need to relentlessly force things.

I think if we are in a position where somebody is forcing too many shots, whether it be KP, Tommy, Knox, etc..., that is a sign that somebody else on the floor should be shooting more.

[Clyde_Style]

Also, don't get it twisted. Timmy is not at all suited to being a primary option in the NBA, both in terms of his abilities and decision making.

He got a big contract off of roughly 30 games after being called back up from G League. It was hardly a good enough sample size to pay someone what he got. We've beaten Mills to death over it sure, but the reality is he was never the player he was signed to be. And the only way he'll become that is if he has a strong coach who keeps him fully on track while he learns to defend and pass better. Is that possible? Maybe. Will that happen? Not fully is my guess, thus he'll never be what Mills signed him to be.

[Capn'O]

That's understandable, but I would argue that that is putting results over process though.

In one respect, I would argue the opposite. The results are going to be worse with him taking those shots. The process is that there's supposed to be somebody in the offense creating in that role that isn't Timmy but he's the best facsimile we have. In that regard, it puts the players into defined roles knowing that this iteration will be a failure.

In another - this does inhibit other players from stepping into that role. Knox is the guy I would have taking on the primary option role, but he's currently hurt. Maybe Mario/Wario?

I would think, in an ideal world, there is nobody consistently in that role. The offense should flow without anyone feeling the need to relentlessly force things.

I think if we are in a position where somebody is forcing too many shots, whether it be KP, Tommy, Knox, etc..., that is a sign that somebody else on the floor should be shooting more.

Sometimes you do need a release valve but what you are saying gets to my point (next post) that Timmy just isn't suited for that role. A better player would make better decisions.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

Absolutely. But I think the point at hand is that at least some of his chucking is by design. Since we simply don't a first option in place he is being asked to do a little more than he would otherwise.

That's understandable, but I would argue that that is putting results over process though.

In one respect, I would argue the opposite. The results are going to be worse with him taking those shots. The process is that there's supposed to be somebody in the offense creating in that role that isn't Timmy but he's the best facsimile we have. In that regard, it puts the players into defined roles knowing that this iteration will be a failure.

Right, but Timmy isn't creating, he's mostly just shooting. So the other players aren't playing their roles either -- they are standing and watching Tim. Yes, we know this iteration will be a failure, but what happens when a true #1 option who can create his own shot and create open looks for others steps in, and none of the other players are used to moving without the ball or expect to receive a pass?

I don't think that establishing and preserving the role of the alpha should be prioritized over developing other roles.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

Perhaps things will look better once Fiz actually installs an offense?

[Clyde_Style]

That's understandable, but I would argue that that is putting results over process though.

In one respect, I would argue the opposite. The results are going to be worse with him taking those shots. The process is that there's supposed to be somebody in the offense creating in that role that isn't Timmy but he's the best facsimile we have. In that regard, it puts the players into defined roles knowing that this iteration will be a failure.

Right, but Timmy isn't creating, he's mostly just shooting. So the other players aren't playing their roles either -- they are standing and watching Tim. Yes, we know this iteration will be a failure, but what happens when a true #1 option who can create his own shot and create open looks for others steps in, and none of the other players are used to moving without the ball or expect to receive a pass?

I don't think that establishing and preserving the role of the alpha should be prioritized over developing other roles.

Yeah, if he showed any desire to dish off then Tim could exploit offenses more on drives and dumps/kicks. But he has tunnel vision PLUS little ability to change his decisions in mid-stream which would spare him from forcing some contested shots and allow him to reset the play.

So while we are all saying he needs to drive more, it will not necessarily open the floor as defenses collapse on him. He will rarely use that opportunity to find a teammate. He will go all the way even if the defense is draped all over him and leaving men open.

Tim's best skill is finishing in transition. He's quite good at it. But his approach to the game will suffer greatly with age like Melo's did.