Moderators: dakomish23, Capn'O, j4remi, Deeeez Knicks, NoLayupRule, GONYK, mpharris36, HerSports85, Jeff Van Gully
cgmw wrote:Whatever happens, keep showcasing Timmy. I could see a Playoff team giving up smaller contracts and/or assets at the deadline.
cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
Capn'O wrote:We're not the kid cousin. We're the recovering meth addict older brother. And we've been clean for a few years now, thank you very much. Very uncouth to bring it up.
cuyankees wrote:What’s with this “Frank looks uncomfortable playing PG” stuff? He’s a fundamentally sound EU PG, where you keep the ball moving bc the ball moves faster with a pass than a dribble. That’s sound PG play, but most armchair analysts have become accustomed to ball dominant PGs that score. Frank will never be that, he’ll be a guy who gets everyone involved and do the PnR flawlessly.
Thank you. 
cuyankees wrote:What’s with this “Frank looks uncomfortable playing PG” stuff? He’s a fundamentally sound EU PG, where you keep the ball moving bc the ball moves faster with a pass than a dribble. That’s sound PG play, but most armchair analysts have become accustomed to ball dominant PGs that score. Frank will never be that, he’ll be a guy who gets everyone involved and do the PnR flawlessly.
Handledatruth wrote:cuyankees wrote:What’s with this “Frank looks uncomfortable playing PG” stuff? He’s a fundamentally sound EU PG, where you keep the ball moving bc the ball moves faster with a pass than a dribble. That’s sound PG play, but most armchair analysts have become accustomed to ball dominant PGs that score. Frank will never be that, he’ll be a guy who gets everyone involved and do the PnR flawlessly.
You gotta admit that him talking the ball past half court and then stopping his dribble to pass to a Center beyond the 3 point line is a little concerning for a point guard. I understand ball movement, but Kanter is not going to do anything great with the basketball besides pass to another guard that cuts to the 3 point line. This equals about 5 - 10 seconds of wasted ball movement with no progress toward the basket. The other concern is when Frank catches the ball off the rebound he doesn't consistently start a transition possession. Basically he acts like someone uncomfortable with dribbling the ball and sometimes you need your point guard to control the flow WHILE dribbling. Especially when he is one of the best passers on the team.
thebuzzardman wrote:For all my THJr bashing, he's the guy capable of go to scoring. At least until Trier matures.
LFT and Frank were in the starting lineup to provide some semblance of defense, as THJr, Burke and Kanter aren't providing much.
Plus, neither demand the ball.
That means that Fiz knows he set up the offense to run around those 3 players.
It'll be interesting to see what he makes the tweak for. More shooting? More defense (not likely)? More rebounding?
GONYK wrote:Handledatruth wrote:cuyankees wrote:What’s with this “Frank looks uncomfortable playing PG” stuff? He’s a fundamentally sound EU PG, where you keep the ball moving bc the ball moves faster with a pass than a dribble. That’s sound PG play, but most armchair analysts have become accustomed to ball dominant PGs that score. Frank will never be that, he’ll be a guy who gets everyone involved and do the PnR flawlessly.
You gotta admit that him talking the ball past half court and then stopping his dribble to pass to a Center beyond the 3 point line is a little concerning for a point guard. I understand ball movement, but Kanter is not going to do anything great with the basketball besides pass to another guard that cuts to the 3 point line. This equals about 5 - 10 seconds of wasted ball movement with no progress toward the basket. The other concern is when Frank catches the ball off the rebound he doesn't consistently start a transition possession. Basically he acts like someone uncomfortable with dribbling the ball and sometimes you need your point guard to control the flow WHILE dribbling. Especially when he is one of the best passers on the team.
What if the set starts with the C getting the ball in the pinch post? There are a bunch of actions that we start from there. How are you sure that's not Frank running the offense?
If the criticism is that Frank should be calling more PnR's that's one thing, but I'm not sure every time Frank passes the ball when crossing halfcourt is him being timid.
Handledatruth wrote:cuyankees wrote:What’s with this “Frank looks uncomfortable playing PG” stuff? He’s a fundamentally sound EU PG, where you keep the ball moving bc the ball moves faster with a pass than a dribble. That’s sound PG play, but most armchair analysts have become accustomed to ball dominant PGs that score. Frank will never be that, he’ll be a guy who gets everyone involved and do the PnR flawlessly.
You gotta admit that him talking the ball past half court and then stopping his dribble to pass to a Center beyond the 3 point line is a little concerning for a point guard. I understand ball movement, but Kanter is not going to do anything great with the basketball besides pass to another guard that cuts to the 3 point line. This equals about 5 - 10 seconds of wasted ball movement with no progress toward the basket. The other concern is when Frank catches the ball off the rebound he doesn't consistently start a transition possession. Basically he acts like someone uncomfortable with dribbling the ball and sometimes you need your point guard to control the flow WHILE dribbling. Especially when he is one of the best passers on the team.
P.S. I love Frank as a player, but he is real tentative when he doesn't have to be. I blame Jeff for making him shell shocked, but he needs to snap out of it.
GONYK wrote:Handledatruth wrote:cuyankees wrote:What’s with this “Frank looks uncomfortable playing PG” stuff? He’s a fundamentally sound EU PG, where you keep the ball moving bc the ball moves faster with a pass than a dribble. That’s sound PG play, but most armchair analysts have become accustomed to ball dominant PGs that score. Frank will never be that, he’ll be a guy who gets everyone involved and do the PnR flawlessly.
You gotta admit that him talking the ball past half court and then stopping his dribble to pass to a Center beyond the 3 point line is a little concerning for a point guard. I understand ball movement, but Kanter is not going to do anything great with the basketball besides pass to another guard that cuts to the 3 point line. This equals about 5 - 10 seconds of wasted ball movement with no progress toward the basket. The other concern is when Frank catches the ball off the rebound he doesn't consistently start a transition possession. Basically he acts like someone uncomfortable with dribbling the ball and sometimes you need your point guard to control the flow WHILE dribbling. Especially when he is one of the best passers on the team.
What if the set starts with the C getting the ball in the pinch post? There are a bunch of actions that we start from there. How are you sure that's not Frank running the offense?
If the criticism is that Frank should be calling more PnR's that's one thing, but I'm not sure every time Frank passes the ball when crossing halfcourt is him being timid.
Handledatruth wrote:GONYK wrote:Handledatruth wrote:
You gotta admit that him talking the ball past half court and then stopping his dribble to pass to a Center beyond the 3 point line is a little concerning for a point guard. I understand ball movement, but Kanter is not going to do anything great with the basketball besides pass to another guard that cuts to the 3 point line. This equals about 5 - 10 seconds of wasted ball movement with no progress toward the basket. The other concern is when Frank catches the ball off the rebound he doesn't consistently start a transition possession. Basically he acts like someone uncomfortable with dribbling the ball and sometimes you need your point guard to control the flow WHILE dribbling. Especially when he is one of the best passers on the team.
What if the set starts with the C getting the ball in the pinch post? There are a bunch of actions that we start from there. How are you sure that's not Frank running the offense?
If the criticism is that Frank should be calling more PnR's that's one thing, but I'm not sure every time Frank passes the ball when crossing halfcourt is him being timid.
If that is the offense why don't other ball handlers do it? Mario gets the ball at the top and he's looking to attack the paint, THJ is looking to shoot or attack the paint, Burke is looking to shoot or attack the paint, Trier for sure, even Dotson came in either shooting or attacking the paint. Enter Frank who gives up the ball to the first person he sees when he crosses half court and then proceeds to cut to the weak side or hang on corner three spot and not be seen for the rest of the possession. He's the only one following the sets? I'm glad he likes to space the floor, but I'd rather him pass to floor spacers. He doesn't have to dominate the ball, but he's such a good passer and he should at least be getting it more than once every possession. I don't think Fiz is stopping him from doing that.
K-DOT wrote:People always say that only Frank passes the ball into a set coming across halfcourt, and it's great because they get to just say it and not back it up because there's no real stat to show how many times people do it
Everybody on the team does it. Granted, Frank does it more often and I'd like to see him not do it as much, but y'all make it sound like nobody else passes into a set ever
Because that's not what I see when I watch the games, and it's why I use stats in arguments cause people see things differently, so this argument is essentially pointlessHandledatruth wrote:K-DOT wrote:People always say that only Frank passes the ball into a set coming across halfcourt, and it's great because they get to just say it and not back it up because there's no real stat to show how many times people do it
Everybody on the team does it. Granted, Frank does it more often and I'd like to see him not do it as much, but y'all make it sound like nobody else passes into a set ever
You really don't see Frank shying away from dribbling the ball? Who needs a stat when you can watch him do it in a game? Let's be honest here. Having Middleton guard Frank last night was like giving the man a break. Frank wasn't going to attack him. We pretty much let Middleton get away with taking his normal nights off on defense. Why put effort in defending someone that rarely has the ball?
I really like Frank as a player and I am not trying to sound like a hater, but please don't excuse his reluctance to attack. We got a 19/20 year old guard that is only comfortable with being Pablo Prigioni on offense. Fiz is not putting the shackles on him. He needs to be more aggressive plain and simple. And that does not only mean shoot more. It means attacking defenders off the dribble to collapse the defense, score, or draw fouls. That is what a point guard does. Even unselfish ones.
cuyankees wrote:Handledatruth wrote:GONYK wrote:
What if the set starts with the C getting the ball in the pinch post? There are a bunch of actions that we start from there. How are you sure that's not Frank running the offense?
If the criticism is that Frank should be calling more PnR's that's one thing, but I'm not sure every time Frank passes the ball when crossing halfcourt is him being timid.
If that is the offense why don't other ball handlers do it? Mario gets the ball at the top and he's looking to attack the paint, THJ is looking to shoot or attack the paint, Burke is looking to shoot or attack the paint, Trier for sure, even Dotson came in either shooting or attacking the paint. Enter Frank who gives up the ball to the first person he sees when he crosses half court and then proceeds to cut to the weak side or hang on corner three spot and not be seen for the rest of the possession. He's the only one following the sets? I'm glad he likes to space the floor, but I'd rather him pass to floor spacers. He doesn't have to dominate the ball, but he's such a good passer and he should at least be getting it more than once every possession. I don't think Fiz is stopping him from doing that.
You’re confusing scorers with Frank and he naturally is not that. Hence my earlier pt about ball dominant PGs, they would attack just like you listed Mario, THJ, Burke, Trier, Dotson, etc do. You see most PGs do it and Frank doesn’t so it must be wrong when in actuality, Frank is fundmanetally sound and they don’t “teach” that on the AAU circuit. Guarantee you there are clips on youtube w JKidd, Magic, and other taller PGs doing the same thing to initiate the offense. Why? They give it up to start the basic “motion” offense and it means they eventually get it back in movement, that scheme relies on someone not being a ballstopper like the aforementioed list that you’re applauding for attacking.
K-DOT wrote:Because that's not what I see when I watch the games, and it's why I use stats in arguments cause people see things differently, so this argument is essentially pointlessHandledatruth wrote:K-DOT wrote:People always say that only Frank passes the ball into a set coming across halfcourt, and it's great because they get to just say it and not back it up because there's no real stat to show how many times people do it
Everybody on the team does it. Granted, Frank does it more often and I'd like to see him not do it as much, but y'all make it sound like nobody else passes into a set ever
You really don't see Frank shying away from dribbling the ball? Who needs a stat when you can watch him do it in a game? Let's be honest here. Having Middleton guard Frank last night was like giving the man a break. Frank wasn't going to attack him. We pretty much let Middleton get away with taking his normal nights off on defense. Why put effort in defending someone that rarely has the ball?
I really like Frank as a player and I am not trying to sound like a hater, but please don't excuse his reluctance to attack. We got a 19/20 year old guard that is only comfortable with being Pablo Prigioni on offense. Fiz is not putting the shackles on him. He needs to be more aggressive plain and simple. And that does not only mean shoot more. It means attacking defenders off the dribble to collapse the defense, score, or draw fouls. That is what a point guard does. Even unselfish ones.
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Do it, and get a counter for all the times the other guards do itHandledatruth wrote:K-DOT wrote:Because that's not what I see when I watch the games, and it's why I use stats in arguments cause people see things differently, so this argument is essentially pointlessHandledatruth wrote:
You really don't see Frank shying away from dribbling the ball? Who needs a stat when you can watch him do it in a game? Let's be honest here. Having Middleton guard Frank last night was like giving the man a break. Frank wasn't going to attack him. We pretty much let Middleton get away with taking his normal nights off on defense. Why put effort in defending someone that rarely has the ball?
I really like Frank as a player and I am not trying to sound like a hater, but please don't excuse his reluctance to attack. We got a 19/20 year old guard that is only comfortable with being Pablo Prigioni on offense. Fiz is not putting the shackles on him. He needs to be more aggressive plain and simple. And that does not only mean shoot more. It means attacking defenders off the dribble to collapse the defense, score, or draw fouls. That is what a point guard does. Even unselfish ones.
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I might have to set a counter for every time he brings the ball up the court without getting past the 3 point line with the ball. I don't think the results would be shocking.
cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
Capn'O wrote:We're not the kid cousin. We're the recovering meth addict older brother. And we've been clean for a few years now, thank you very much. Very uncouth to bring it up.
Handledatruth wrote:cuyankees wrote:Handledatruth wrote:
If that is the offense why don't other ball handlers do it? Mario gets the ball at the top and he's looking to attack the paint, THJ is looking to shoot or attack the paint, Burke is looking to shoot or attack the paint, Trier for sure, even Dotson came in either shooting or attacking the paint. Enter Frank who gives up the ball to the first person he sees when he crosses half court and then proceeds to cut to the weak side or hang on corner three spot and not be seen for the rest of the possession. He's the only one following the sets? I'm glad he likes to space the floor, but I'd rather him pass to floor spacers. He doesn't have to dominate the ball, but he's such a good passer and he should at least be getting it more than once every possession. I don't think Fiz is stopping him from doing that.
You’re confusing scorers with Frank and he naturally is not that. Hence my earlier pt about ball dominant PGs, they would attack just like you listed Mario, THJ, Burke, Trier, Dotson, etc do. You see most PGs do it and Frank doesn’t so it must be wrong when in actuality, Frank is fundmanetally sound and they don’t “teach” that on the AAU circuit. Guarantee you there are clips on youtube w JKidd, Magic, and other taller PGs doing the same thing to initiate the offense. Why? They give it up to start the basic “motion” offense and it means they eventually get it back in movement, that scheme relies on someone not being a ballstopper like the aforementioed list that you’re applauding for attacking.
You think when I say attack I mean "go score". That is not what I am talking about. All a good point guard has to do to attack is dribble the ball somewhere near the key which causes the defense to collapse on the guard. It can be through a pick and roll or dribble hand off from a Center, or pump fake from the three point line. Whatever...just attack and force someone to slide their feet. He's such a crafty passer when he does attack. I'd rather see him make good passes (notice i said passes and not assists) than see Burke do the same thing for a step back mid-range shot.
I really do believe the choice is up to him. Which was my point about the other players. Fiz runs a flexible offense that looks pretty similar to Spols (if not the same?). Anyone can initiate.
