PG Thread: I didn't watch, but looks like some of y'all did

[awy]

that's just a dumb thing to say.

[prophet_of_rage]

You always have to look at the algorithm behind the stat

For DPA, I believe they put a lot of emphasis on rebounding, so a player like Kanter who grabs a lot of boards looks better on their chart than he actually is

It's why defensive stats based exclusively on box scores are pretty dodgy

OPA is derived by adjusting offensive box plus/minus (OBPM) to account for the number of possessions the player in question is present for. Similarly, DPS is derived from a similar adjustment of defensive box plus/minus (DBPM) with that same number of possessions. OBPM and DBPM, both calculated by Basketball-Reference.com, estimate the per-100-possessions value of a player on either end of the court.

very flawed to say the least. It basically just looks at box scores.

Here's the actual equation

Raw BPM = a*ReMPG + b*ORB% + c*DRB% + d*STL% + e*BLK% + f*AST% - g*USG%*TO% +
h*USG%*(1-TO%)*[2*(TS% - TmTS%) + i*AST% + j*(3PAr - Lg3PAr) - k] + l*sqrt(AST%*TRB%)

You get DBPM by setting all the coefficients for offensive stats to zero, effectively cancelling them out, so roughly what you get is

a*ReMPG + c*DRB% + d*STL% + e*BLK% + l*sqrt(*TRB%)

So, it's essentially defensive rebounding percentage plus steal/block percentage plus square root of total rebound percentage, adjusted for minutes

Overall BPM might be kinda useful, but DBPM is a bag of rubbish

What's the square root of this message board?

[Fat Kat]

Does that stat say Frank is our worst player?

mario

It shows Kanter is good on defense. Maybe we should stop looking at that chart?

All statistics are wrong unless they say what we want them to.

BTW - these are some of the same stats folks were using to support their favorite players last season.

[IllmaticHandler]

I find this one the funnier arguments against something I seen here in a long time. Just typing in random role players in the NBA would net you all the proof to what they are referred as...

Against the 76ers, Winslow was arguably the Heat’s best two-way player, aggressively defending Simmons while finding his three-point stroke on the offensive end.

Could Josh Richardson turn into the two-way player the Miami Heat need?

ESPN in reference to Avery Bradley.

Pistons get 'two-way' player in Bradley Adrian Wojnarowski explains why the Celtics needed to move Avery Bradley to the Pistons in order to make cap space for Gordon Hayward.

Snell when traded to the Bucks a few years ago...

Snell could potentially resemble his NBA ideal, as a 3-and-D wing whose accurate outside shooting and disruptive defensive length make him a useful two-way player in a league that values that more than ever.

I can go on and on....you get the Idea.

[HEZI]

Our two way players have to ride the shoulders of our one way players on offense. We must have the special degree of 2 way players lol

[2010]

what happened with dotson?

The day Dotson got promoted to the starting lineup and Kanter was benched he tweeted the same "." and everyone criticized him for it.

Then I made a joke that the tweet was really in support of Dotson getting a starting job ("Dot") and now KFS has piggybacked the joke.

Trust me, JB didn't piggyback off of it. He made the same joke to a few of us (and then tweeted it the first time) when Enes first posted it, unless he's lurking here.

Great minds think alike then...

[NBA Fan 1234]

My point is two way player is a term of art. Everybody plays both sides. You don't get the two way designation if you are a role player or even very good. But back to the main point. We don't have any on this team.

Do you really want to say this? Really?

If you play both sides well, you’re a two way player. It doesn’t have to be at an elite level. Again, there are varying degrees.

*The Knicks DO have two way guys on the team, and the fact that you think there are only three - five ones (lol, LeBron...? Really?) makes me think you don’t understanding what a two way player actually is.

Do you know somebody who doesn't play both sides of the ball? Who are the Knicks two way guys? Currently. Not KP. But on the active roster.

That wasn't what I was arguing, although I do think the Knicks have varying degrees of two way guys (Dot, Frank at PG, maybe Vonleh/Mitch). What I was arguing was that you don't need to be a star on both ends to be a two way guy - you need to be good on both ends.

[2010]

I'm jumping in here at the tail end of a ridiculous debate here. But you absolutely DO NOT have to be a star or elite to be a two-way player. All the term means is that you are an effective player on both sides of the ball. In other words, you are a net positive player and will not hurt your team on either end.

[Greenie]

i'm a two way poster. i can talk intelligently about basketball and i can bring the f*ckery. some of you can only do one. lol

I’m on another level though.

you're boogie cousins. all this talent but nobody can control you.

More like Kawhi...

[stuporman]

What if a guy sucks on both sides of the court? The anti-two way player!

[prophet_of_rage]

I'm jumping in here at the tail end of a ridiculous debate here. But you absolutely DO NOT have to be a star or elite to be a two-way player. All the term means is that you are an effective player on both sides of the ball. In other words, you are a net positive player and will not hurt your team on either end.

You guys stay giving average players props. I guess Steph is a two way player by that definition. And since Kanter ends defensive possessions at an exceptuonal rate he is two way, too?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[NBA Fan 1234]

I'm jumping in here at the tail end of a ridiculous debate here. But you absolutely DO NOT have to be a star or elite to be a two-way player. All the term means is that you are an effective player on both sides of the ball. In other words, you are a net positive player and will not hurt your team on either end.

You guys stay giving average players props. I guess Steph is a two way player by that definition. And since Kanter ends defensive possessions at an exceptuonal rate he is two way, too?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

Steph is actually a good defender, so, yes, he is a two way player. Kanter, on the flip side, is a **** defender...so, no, he is not one.

Also, Knicks rebound the ball better on both ends with Kanter on the bench.

[Greenie]

if we're being logical, anyone who statistically is a positive on both offense and defense would be a two way player. everyone does play both offense and defense but everyone is not a positive on both. that's likely what the term refers to.

Ok

When did Adams become a positive on offense?
He’s neutral to me(not good or bad). That’s not two way IMO.

[Greenie]

mario

It shows Kanter is good on defense. Maybe we should stop looking at that chart?

All statistics are wrong unless they say what we want them to.

BTW - these are some of the same stats folks were using to support their favorite players last season.

And got on me cause I wasn’t having any of it.

[prophet_of_rage]

I'm jumping in here at the tail end of a ridiculous debate here. But you absolutely DO NOT have to be a star or elite to be a two-way player. All the term means is that you are an effective player on both sides of the ball. In other words, you are a net positive player and will not hurt your team on either end.

You guys stay giving average players props. I guess Steph is a two way player by that definition. And since Kanter ends defensive possessions at an exceptuonal rate he is two way, too?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

Steph is actually a good defender, so, yes, he is a two way player. Kanter, on the flip side, is a **** defender...so, no, he is not one.

Also, Knicks rebound the ball better on both ends with Kanter on the bench.

My friend, we will agree to disagree.

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[Greenie]

Do you really want to say this? Really?

If you play both sides well, you’re a two way player. It doesn’t have to be at an elite level. Again, there are varying degrees.

*The Knicks DO have two way guys on the team, and the fact that you think there are only three - five ones (lol, LeBron...? Really?) makes me think you don’t understanding what a two way player actually is.

Do you know somebody who doesn't play both sides of the ball? Who are the Knicks two way guys? Currently. Not KP. But on the active roster.

That wasn't what I was arguing, although I do think the Knicks have varying degrees of two way guys (Dot, Frank at PG, maybe Vonleh/Mitch). What I was arguing was that you don't need to be a star on both ends to be a two way guy - you need to be good on both ends.

Frank?
Nah

Frank sucks on offense

[HarthorneWingo]

i'm a two way poster. i can talk intelligently about basketball and i can bring the f*ckery. some of you can only do one. lol

But you’re also an All Star so you really don’t count.

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thank you. that's really kind of you. that makes the next thing i have to do really hard but you're way past your prime and we're gonna have to cut you. but we'll bring you in to help mentor 3toheadmelo who's emerging as one of our best young prospects.

3totheadmelo? That's a low blow.

[mpharris36]

Do you know somebody who doesn't play both sides of the ball? Who are the Knicks two way guys? Currently. Not KP. But on the active roster.

That wasn't what I was arguing, although I do think the Knicks have varying degrees of two way guys (Dot, Frank at PG, maybe Vonleh/Mitch). What I was arguing was that you don't need to be a star on both ends to be a two way guy - you need to be good on both ends.

Frank?
Nah

Frank sucks on offense

3 games ago he was catching your eye

now he's back to sucking...i mean the sample size is a bit small don't ya think?

[HarthorneWingo]

Mitch already has incredible instincts on defense. Once he learns the game, he's going to be a nightmare. We got incredibly lucky for once.

A strong KP with Mitch and Frank on the floor at the same time is going to produce some epic quarters where teams only score 10 points.

Mitch did fck up in the 4th quarter. Got to keep it real.

[F N 11]

Only legit 2 way player on Knicks right now for sure is KP. Don’t @ me saying he can’t guard the perimeter either. His on and off the floor numbers tells it all.