PG Thread: The Tank Goes On

[jvsimonetti0514]

The reality of the situation is this. I truly believe some of us want Frank to be a full-time PG more than Frank wants Frank to be a full-time PG.

Frank's a full on team player

If the team says he's gonna play SG/SF, he'll do it. It's just how he is, that's how he was raised in that Euro mindset

C'est la vie. Is what it is. Dude's still a valuable player if he gets his shot right, but we're still looking for a PG if he ain't it, and one that allows Frank to defend opposing PGs, cause that's gonna be the best use of him. Which is why I liked SGA last year, dude would've been a perfect fit for Frank

Ja Morant hype train picking up steam, hop on now man

I think that's where most of the frustration comes from with Frank. Or at least where my frustration comes from. Last year was supposed to be the "point guard draft" and we ended up with a kid that's just not a point guard. We need dribble penetration and a playmaker in the worst way possible. On offense he just goes through to motions and not do anything outside the system and basketball just doesn't work like that. You're right that SGA looks like a stud and would have been a good fit for us but we shouldn't be too worried about who's a good fit with Frank. You don't make plans for a defensive specialist off the bench.

[DOT]

The reality of the situation is this. I truly believe some of us want Frank to be a full-time PG more than Frank wants Frank to be a full-time PG.

Frank's a full on team player

If the team says he's gonna play SG/SF, he'll do it. It's just how he is, that's how he was raised in that Euro mindset

C'est la vie. Is what it is. Dude's still a valuable player if he gets his shot right, but we're still looking for a PG if he ain't it, and one that allows Frank to defend opposing PGs, cause that's gonna be the best use of him. Which is why I liked SGA last year, dude would've been a perfect fit for Frank

Ja Morant hype train picking up steam, hop on now man

I think that's where most of the frustration comes from with Frank. Or at least where my frustration comes from. Last year was supposed to be the "point guard draft" and we ended up with a kid that's just not a point guard. We need dribble penetration and a playmaker in the worst way possible. On offense he just goes through to motions and not do anything outside the system and basketball just doesn't work like that. You're right that SGA looks like a stud and would have been a good fit for us but we shouldn't be too worried about who's a good fit with Frank. You don't make plans for a defensive specialist off the bench.

If he gets his shot to start falling, he's much more than a bench defender

Guy that good on defense with a respectable shot is a starter on a good team, like prime Danny Green or RoCo or Bruce Bowen. At the very least he's a complimentary piece, like a taller Pat Bev, but we would still need a PG

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[sims]

Frank just needs to play offensively with a higher sense of urgency. With a mentality of trying to make something happen. That doesn't even always mean shoot. But he needs to become more of a playmaker. Even if he is playmaking out of the post and playing to his advantage.

But it seems like he just doesn't have the mentality to want to do that. Yes, part of it is on Fiz cuz maybe he needs to run some plays for Frank out of the post or call his # on playcalls more often.

But ultimately Frank has to look in the mirror and make the necessary changes. The concerning part about his interview is he didn't seem upset at all about being benched. And he doesn't seem to acknowledge that any adjustments need to be made. He just came across like he really dgaf. Justified or not, at some point the competitor in him has to want to show his coach, the team, the fans, and himself that HE WANTS TO BE THE PG.

frank has become a divisive player because he is a bit of a darling for the "basketball hipsters" - supporting him projects a superior understanding of the subtler, more imperceptible aspects of the game that can only be noticed (and appreciated!) by the most refined eye, while you, a basketball barbarian, only peruse box scores for points and rebounds. the reality is that he is far too meek and eager to defer to others to flourish in the role he was drafted to play. he may still develop into a serviceable player - and i believe that he will - but we can well and truly put the "giannis/kawhi of point guards" hopes to bed. in spite of his perceived defensive prowess, the bigger issue is the absence of any development from year 1 to year 2, and i'm not sure how his laissez faire personality will respond to the bumps in the road.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Frank's a full on team player

If the team says he's gonna play SG/SF, he'll do it. It's just how he is, that's how he was raised in that Euro mindset

C'est la vie. Is what it is. Dude's still a valuable player if he gets his shot right, but we're still looking for a PG if he ain't it, and one that allows Frank to defend opposing PGs, cause that's gonna be the best use of him. Which is why I liked SGA last year, dude would've been a perfect fit for Frank

Ja Morant hype train picking up steam, hop on now man

I think that's where most of the frustration comes from with Frank. Or at least where my frustration comes from. Last year was supposed to be the "point guard draft" and we ended up with a kid that's just not a point guard. We need dribble penetration and a playmaker in the worst way possible. On offense he just goes through to motions and not do anything outside the system and basketball just doesn't work like that. You're right that SGA looks like a stud and would have been a good fit for us but we shouldn't be too worried about who's a good fit with Frank. You don't make plans for a defensive specialist off the bench.

If he gets his shot to start falling, he's much more than a bench defender

Guy that good on defense with a respectable shot is a starter on a good team, like prime Danny Green or RoCo or Bruce Bowen. At the very least he's a complimentary piece, like a taller Pat Bev, but we would still need a PG

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

That 3 point shot is still a big if for Frank. I mean it's still early in the season but he hasn't made the jump that other Europeans had with their 3 point shots in year two.

[Clyde_Style]

Frank just needs to play offensively with a higher sense of urgency. With a mentality of trying to make something happen. That doesn't even always mean shoot. But he needs to become more of a playmaker. Even if he is playmaking out of the post and playing to his advantage.

But it seems like he just doesn't have the mentality to want to do that. Yes, part of it is on Fiz cuz maybe he needs to run some plays for Frank out of the post or call his # on playcalls more often.

But ultimately Frank has to look in the mirror and make the necessary changes. The concerning part about his interview is he didn't seem upset at all about being benched. And he doesn't seem to acknowledge that any adjustments need to be made. He just came across like he really dgaf. Justified or not, at some point the competitor in him has to want to show his coach, the team, the fans, and himself that HE WANTS TO BE THE PG.

frank has become a divisive player because he is a bit of a darling for the "basketball hipsters" - supporting him projects a superior understanding of the subtler, more imperceptible aspects of the game that can only be noticed (and appreciated!) by the most refined eye, while you, a basketball barbarian, only peruse box scores for points and rebounds. the reality is that he is far too meek and eager to defer to others to flourish in the role he was drafted to play. he may still develop into a serviceable player - and i believe that he will - but we can well and truly put the "giannis/kawhi of point guards" hopes to bed. in spite of his perceived defensive prowess, the bigger issue is the absence of any development from year 1 to year 2, and i'm not sure how his laissez faire personality will respond to the bumps in the road.

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

[Adelheid]

Draft a real floor general/playmaker or spend a bit of the cap for that in FA -- I've had enough of this FO trying to be cute in refusing to get one.

[Garbagelo]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

People here have been so badly damaged psychologically by decades of losing, they forget about team basketball and are only able to see box scores and watch youtube highlight tapes to judge how valuable a player is to the team. From the "fanbase" on this board, more often than not, the one that dislikes Frank tends to have an obvious appetite for 1 on 1 players and athletic finishers and more often than not fold at the first sign of adversity within a game and call for the tank brigade to come in. The pattern is obvious and amusing.

Not saying that Frank is some kind of amazing player right now but to say that he doesn't have potential to be is an obvious lie or a basketball knowledge deficient miscalculation.

Cheering for player development, then realizing that it takes longer than a few games to actually see some results then complaining about it as if they were an "expert" just shows how impatient and mentally invalid this "fanbase" is.

[Greenie]

People got pissed when I called Frank a tall Pat Bev last year...

[Greenie]

Watch on YouTube

He so complacent that he isn't even taking his 5 min stint and subsequent benching as a wake up call.

yeah he is a little to carefree about it for my tastes..

That’s who he is. Can’t be a NY PG like that. We need to make him play summer ball in NYC parks to toughen him up and then move him to SG...where he belongs(after we trade Tim Tim)

[Clyde_Style]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

People here have been so badly damaged psychologically by decades of losing, they forget about team basketball and are only able to see box scores and watch youtube highlight tapes to judge how valuable a player is to the team. From the "fanbase" on this board, more often than not, the one that dislikes Frank tends to have an obvious appetite for 1 on 1 players and athletic finishers and more often than not fold at the first sign of adversity within a game and call for the tank brigade to come in. The pattern is obvious and amusing.

Not saying that Frank is some kind of amazing player right now but to say that he doesn't have potential to be is an obvious lie or a basketball knowledge deficient miscalculation.

Cheering for player development, then realizing that it takes longer than a few games to actually see some results then complaining about it as if they were an "expert" just shows how impatient and mentally invalid this "fanbase" is.

Thanks for the corroboration.

One of the schisms that occurs is because many people are actually very poor judges of talent, i.e. potential. IOW, they only know how to gauge results.

But that is not how great teams happen. If you only built teams based on results you'd always be trying to be the 90s Yankees and buying stars and we know how that doesn't work in the NBA.

FACT: The only way to win a ring in the NBA is by betting on young talent and developing it and maybe then adding free agent talent that completes the puzzle.

The problem we're seeing with this fan base is there are many who treat the first step as if it is the final step. They want their rookies to behave like polished veterans and when they don't get what they want they behave like brats.

That's not how any of this works. This is a tiresome process of watching many boring games where people perform like crap until they figure out how to optimize their talents.

There are only maybe 2 or 3 players who enter the league every year who are fully ready for prime time. The rest take 2-4 years to get fully on track. Somehow 20 years of failure has not educated this fan base about these very basic facts and we still have a bunch of grubby, feed me immediately malcontents who want everything served up to them on a silver platter now. Sorry, that's now how this works.

[2010]

He so complacent that he isn't even taking his 5 min stint and subsequent benching as a wake up call.

yeah he is a little to carefree about it for my tastes..

That’s who he is. Can’t be a NY PG like that. We need to make him play summer ball in NYC parks to toughen him up and then move him to SG...where he belongs(after we trade Tim Tim)

Remember, this is the same player who was content to attempt to run sets in an All Star Weekend Rookie-Sophomore game. Had no desire to attempt to show out. At this point, the only person holding Frank back is Frank. We can't blame anyone else anymore.

[Clyde_Style]

People got pissed when I called Frank a tall Pat Bev last year...

And you got pissed for six years when people told you your pet Melo was a black hole and you're still typing two page defenses of the worst team player in the league (who is as of now a former NBA player unless some desperate team picks him up) so it is safe to say you still don't know anything about how to evaluate what constitutes a player who can contribute to a winning team.

[sims]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

People here have been so badly damaged psychologically by decades of losing, they forget about team basketball and are only able to see box scores and watch youtube highlight tapes to judge how valuable a player is to the team. From the "fanbase" on this board, more often than not, the one that dislikes Frank tends to have an obvious appetite for 1 on 1 players and athletic finishers and more often than not fold at the first sign of adversity within a game and call for the tank brigade to come in. The pattern is obvious and amusing.

Not saying that Frank is some kind of amazing player right now but to say that he doesn't have potential to be is an obvious lie or a basketball knowledge deficient miscalculation.

Cheering for player development, then realizing that it takes longer than a few games to actually see some results then complaining about it as if they were an "expert" just shows how impatient and mentally invalid this "fanbase" is.

don't forget to include our head coach with the "impatient fanbase," guys.

there's a big, big difference between what you are describing (and what has plagued this franchise) and what is going on with frank. as of now, the role is his to lose and he's just not doing enough, not bringing enough to the table or even passing the eye test to assume that he's the long-term solution there. we need to see that he has what it takes to fight off the hungry dogs coming for that spot. he's making mudiay look good right now - not a positive sign for his nba future. even still, nobody is writing him off just yet. i, for one, am hoping he shows something to inspire a little more confidence that he can be more than a defensive specialist off the bench.

[Adelheid]

this might not end well...damn

[RHODEY]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

People here have been so badly damaged psychologically by decades of losing, they forget about team basketball and are only able to see box scores and watch youtube highlight tapes to judge how valuable a player is to the team. From the "fanbase" on this board, more often than not, the one that dislikes Frank tends to have an obvious appetite for 1 on 1 players and athletic finishers and more often than not fold at the first sign of adversity within a game and call for the tank brigade to come in. The pattern is obvious and amusing.

Not saying that Frank is some kind of amazing player right now but to say that he doesn't have potential to be is an obvious lie or a basketball knowledge deficient miscalculation.

Cheering for player development, then realizing that it takes longer than a few games to actually see some results then complaining about it as if they were an "expert" just shows how impatient and mentally invalid this "fanbase" is.

don't forget to include our head coach with the "impatient fanbase," guys.

there's a big, big difference between what you are describing (and what has plagued this franchise) and what is going on with frank. as of now, the role is his to lose and he's just not doing enough, not bringing enough to the table or even passing the eye test to assume that he's the long-term solution there. we need to see that he has what it takes to fight off the hungry dogs coming for that spot. he's making mudiay look good right now - not a positive sign for his nba future. even still, nobody is writing him off just yet. i, for one, am hoping he shows something to inspire a little more confidence that he can be more than a defensive specialist off the bench.

You forget the recent back to back 16 and 17 point games? The kid can score..he just needs time to work on his game and confidence.

[Sark]

He's 20 **** years old. Relax.

Not every player comes into the league as ready as you guys want them to be. I can think of numerous lotto picks that took time to get better.

Noah Vonleh.
Trey Burke.
Emmanuel Mudiay.
Mario Hezonja.

Just to name a few.

[prophet_of_rage]

I'm obviously a slow learner. It took me ten years to realize there will always be a hard core contingent of Knicks fans who seek to piss into every corner to mark their territory after every single game.

What we are witnessing now is a clash between people who think they have to issue conclusive proclamations about the career trajectory of a player after every single game vs. posters who understand we are not in a situation where every single performance can be used to surmise the long-term value of our players.

Talent and development doesn't work that way. It takes years and that requires support and it is possible it doesn't exist in enough quantity in the NY fan base for me to believe a rebuild will ever happen for the Knicks.

There are quite a few people here who couldn't support anything that requires more than a few days of consistent allegiance if their lives depended on it. It seems their sole mission is only to play the grass is greener over the other side of the fence game by crapping on 18, 19 and 20 year old players as if they are garbage because they are not finished products which is literally insane.

If somehow Scott Perry is impervious to this kind of fan impatience, then bless his little heart, because that would mean he is wise and capable of resisting the pressures of public opinion.

I will cast my lot with Scott Perry then and hope David Fizdale does have the chops to bring the best out of our young talent. But at this point I have little faith in the Knicks fan base as a whole to have the wisdom to see through a rebuild process.

It is an interesting twist of fate then is to see our moderator team is pretty firmly on the side of a rational support of long-term rebuild and development strategies.

Once upon a time, RealGM was a very mixed bag in terms of moderation, so I think that has really improved greatly and I must pay my respects to the current mod team as I think you are for the most part doing a good job even if you are human and prone to snark at times, but that is hard to resist when you still have the current brattiness to contend with.

Yes, opinions are like azzholes. Everyone has one. The problem right now is some people think they need to interpret every game as if it is the final say on a player's destiny which is ignorant and annoying.

If this is a rebuild, then it will take years. We've all been guilty of hot takes on players after each game, but at some point you have to come to grips with the futility of predicting the future based off the day's events. I'm afraid this board may always be overrun by the types who just don't understand this basic fact of life.

Is this post addressing the Tim hate?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[Clyde_Style]

I'm obviously a slow learner. It took me ten years to realize there will always be a hard core contingent of Knicks fans who seek to piss into every corner to mark their territory after every single game.

What we are witnessing now is a clash between people who think they have to issue conclusive proclamations about the career trajectory of a player after every single game vs. posters who understand we are not in a situation where every single performance can be used to surmise the long-term value of our players.

Talent and development doesn't work that way. It takes years and that requires support and it is possible it doesn't exist in enough quantity in the NY fan base for me to believe a rebuild will ever happen for the Knicks.

There are quite a few people here who couldn't support anything that requires more than a few days of consistent allegiance if their lives depended on it. It seems their sole mission is only to play the grass is greener over the other side of the fence game by crapping on 18, 19 and 20 year old players as if they are garbage because they are not finished products which is literally insane.

If somehow Scott Perry is impervious to this kind of fan impatience, then bless his little heart, because that would mean he is wise and capable of resisting the pressures of public opinion.

I will cast my lot with Scott Perry then and hope David Fizdale does have the chops to bring the best out of our young talent. But at this point I have little faith in the Knicks fan base as a whole to have the wisdom to see through a rebuild process.

It is an interesting twist of fate then is to see our moderator team is pretty firmly on the side of a rational support of long-term rebuild and development strategies.

Once upon a time, RealGM was a very mixed bag in terms of moderation, so I think that has really improved greatly and I must pay my respects to the current mod team as I think you are for the most part doing a good job even if you are human and prone to snark at times, but that is hard to resist when you still have the current brattiness to contend with.

Yes, opinions are like azzholes. Everyone has one. The problem right now is some people think they need to interpret every game as if it is the final say on a player's destiny which is ignorant and annoying.

If this is a rebuild, then it will take years. We've all been guilty of hot takes on players after each game, but at some point you have to come to grips with the futility of predicting the future based off the day's events. I'm afraid this board may always be overrun by the types who just don't understand this basic fact of life.

Is this post addressing the Tim hate?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

Don't try to get clever with me.

It is straightforward as can be that the sensible core of posters on this board will support Tim if his shot selection is sensible and he plays committed defense.

Tim is a six year veteran now. If you're going to bug out over Tommy jokes then you're not catching the drift because if people cracking on a six year veteran's shot selection is to you the equivalent of writing off a player in the 14th game of their second season then you shouldn't be asking me questions like "What about Timmy?"

[sims]

He's 20 **** years old. Relax.

Not every player comes into the league as ready as you guys want them to be. I can think of numerous lotto picks that took time to get better.

Noah Vonleh.
Trey Burke.
Emmanuel Mudiay.
Mario Hezonja.

Just to name a few.

i'm not sure that naming four top-10 picks who salvaged their nba careers by becoming rotational players off the bench is the best way to make your point about frank. not being ready isn't the same thing as not having the goods.

but i do like what vonleh is doing in his role here. good get.

[prophet_of_rage]

Frank just needs to play offensively with a higher sense of urgency. With a mentality of trying to make something happen. That doesn't even always mean shoot. But he needs to become more of a playmaker. Even if he is playmaking out of the post and playing to his advantage.

But it seems like he just doesn't have the mentality to want to do that. Yes, part of it is on Fiz cuz maybe he needs to run some plays for Frank out of the post or call his # on playcalls more often.

But ultimately Frank has to look in the mirror and make the necessary changes. The concerning part about his interview is he didn't seem upset at all about being benched. And he doesn't seem to acknowledge that any adjustments need to be made. He just came across like he really dgaf. Justified or not, at some point the competitor in him has to want to show his coach, the team, the fans, and himself that HE WANTS TO BE THE PG.

frank has become a divisive player because he is a bit of a darling for the "basketball hipsters" - supporting him projects a superior understanding of the subtler, more imperceptible aspects of the game that can only be noticed (and appreciated!) by the most refined eye, while you, a basketball barbarian, only peruse box scores for points and rebounds. the reality is that he is far too meek and eager to defer to others to flourish in the role he was drafted to play. he may still develop into a serviceable player - and i believe that he will - but we can well and truly put the "giannis/kawhi of point guards" hopes to bed. in spite of his perceived defensive prowess, the bigger issue is the absence of any development from year 1 to year 2, and i'm not sure how his laissez faire personality will respond to the bumps in the road.

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

There's nothing trashy about his take. It is consistent with the posts in this board. He is saying the same thing dozens of pro-Frank people have said, making proclamations that cover a range of people in broad and inaccurate strokes. Be consistent in the criticism of posting styles.

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