PG Thread: The Tank Goes On

[Clyde_Style]

frank has become a divisive player because he is a bit of a darling for the "basketball hipsters" - supporting him projects a superior understanding of the subtler, more imperceptible aspects of the game that can only be noticed (and appreciated!) by the most refined eye, while you, a basketball barbarian, only peruse box scores for points and rebounds. the reality is that he is far too meek and eager to defer to others to flourish in the role he was drafted to play. he may still develop into a serviceable player - and i believe that he will - but we can well and truly put the "giannis/kawhi of point guards" hopes to bed. in spite of his perceived defensive prowess, the bigger issue is the absence of any development from year 1 to year 2, and i'm not sure how his laissez faire personality will respond to the bumps in the road.

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

There's nothing trashy about his take. It is consistent with the posts in this board. He is saying the same thing dozens of pro-Frank people have said, making proclamations that cover a range of people in broad and inaccurate strokes. Be consistent in the criticism of posting styles.

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Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

[prophet_of_rage]

I'm obviously a slow learner. It took me ten years to realize there will always be a hard core contingent of Knicks fans who seek to piss into every corner to mark their territory after every single game.

What we are witnessing now is a clash between people who think they have to issue conclusive proclamations about the career trajectory of a player after every single game vs. posters who understand we are not in a situation where every single performance can be used to surmise the long-term value of our players.

Talent and development doesn't work that way. It takes years and that requires support and it is possible it doesn't exist in enough quantity in the NY fan base for me to believe a rebuild will ever happen for the Knicks.

There are quite a few people here who couldn't support anything that requires more than a few days of consistent allegiance if their lives depended on it. It seems their sole mission is only to play the grass is greener over the other side of the fence game by crapping on 18, 19 and 20 year old players as if they are garbage because they are not finished products which is literally insane.

If somehow Scott Perry is impervious to this kind of fan impatience, then bless his little heart, because that would mean he is wise and capable of resisting the pressures of public opinion.

I will cast my lot with Scott Perry then and hope David Fizdale does have the chops to bring the best out of our young talent. But at this point I have little faith in the Knicks fan base as a whole to have the wisdom to see through a rebuild process.

It is an interesting twist of fate then is to see our moderator team is pretty firmly on the side of a rational support of long-term rebuild and development strategies.

Once upon a time, RealGM was a very mixed bag in terms of moderation, so I think that has really improved greatly and I must pay my respects to the current mod team as I think you are for the most part doing a good job even if you are human and prone to snark at times, but that is hard to resist when you still have the current brattiness to contend with.

Yes, opinions are like azzholes. Everyone has one. The problem right now is some people think they need to interpret every game as if it is the final say on a player's destiny which is ignorant and annoying.

If this is a rebuild, then it will take years. We've all been guilty of hot takes on players after each game, but at some point you have to come to grips with the futility of predicting the future based off the day's events. I'm afraid this board may always be overrun by the types who just don't understand this basic fact of life.

Is this post addressing the Tim hate?

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Don't try to get clever with me.

It is straightforward as can be that the sensible core of posters on this board will support Tim if his shot selection is sensible and he plays committed defense.

Tim is a six year veteran now. If you're going to bug out over Tommy jokes then you're not catching the drift because if people cracking on a six year veteran's shot selection is to you the equivalent of writing off a player in the 14th game of their second season then you shouldn't be asking me questions like "What about Timmy?"

Got it. You're allowed to critique Tim's development as a first option scorer game by game but not Frank's development as a player game by game because Tim has been playing a different role for longer.

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[prophet_of_rage]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

There's nothing trashy about his take. It is consistent with the posts in this board. He is saying the same thing dozens of pro-Frank people have said, making proclamations that cover a range of people in broad and inaccurate strokes. Be consistent in the criticism of posting styles.

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Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe if I put it in hipster? You understand me perfectly well. You just don't have an answer.

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[prophet_of_rage]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

There's nothing trashy about his take. It is consistent with the posts in this board. He is saying the same thing dozens of pro-Frank people have said, making proclamations that cover a range of people in broad and inaccurate strokes. Be consistent in the criticism of posting styles.

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Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

You are not the smartest person in the room.

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[Clyde_Style]

There's nothing trashy about his take. It is consistent with the posts in this board. He is saying the same thing dozens of pro-Frank people have said, making proclamations that cover a range of people in broad and inaccurate strokes. Be consistent in the criticism of posting styles.

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Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe if I put it in hipster? You understand me perfectly well. You just don't have an answer.

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Read back the syntax of the post I responded to. It makes no sense at all. Feel free to deconstruct your post, but it was unintelligible.

[prophet_of_rage]

Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe if I put it in hipster? You understand me perfectly well. You just don't have an answer.

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Read back the syntax of the post I responded to. It makes no sense at all. Feel free to deconstruct your post, but it was unintelligible.

He's posting in the same style as the pro-Frank contingent of the Knicks realgm oard. Those posters, including you, make broad, condescending and ridiculous posts insulting posters who disagree with their points of view. If you have an issue with the tone and content of his post then perhaps you should spend some time reviewing the content and tone of your posts which make amazingly similar sweeping generalisations. Please let me know if you are lost or confused by my syntax again.

You're a pot calling the kettle black.

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[Clyde_Style]

Maybe if I put it in hipster? You understand me perfectly well. You just don't have an answer.

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Read back the syntax of the post I responded to. It makes no sense at all. Feel free to deconstruct your post, but it was unintelligible.

He's posting in the same style as the pro-Frank contingent of the Knicks realgm oard. Those posters, including you, make broad, condescending and ridiculous posts insulting posters who disagree with their points of view. If you have an issue with the tone and content of his post then perhaps you should spend some time reviewing the content and tone of your posts which make amazingly similar sweeping generalisations. Please let me know if you are lost or confused by my syntax again.

You're a pot calling the kettle black.

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You're deeply insecure.

[justin12140]

This is a trashy take. Calling people who are patient hipsters is insulting.

Anyone here who is willing to see how a player like Frank pans out is not shouting from the rooftops that he is a given.Nobody doubts the possible truth he is too passive to succeed, but that in no way justifies calling people who are willing to wait and see how he develops "hipsters".

Championship teams are a blend of personalities that click, not a set of stats that some clique of fans decide are optimized building blocks for a contender. Either Frank is an integral piece of a solid team or he is not not, but that will only be determined by the ability of a franchise willing to find that out. It appears a large part of this fan base lacks the patience to find that out.

People here have been so badly damaged psychologically by decades of losing, they forget about team basketball and are only able to see box scores and watch youtube highlight tapes to judge how valuable a player is to the team. From the "fanbase" on this board, more often than not, the one that dislikes Frank tends to have an obvious appetite for 1 on 1 players and athletic finishers and more often than not fold at the first sign of adversity within a game and call for the tank brigade to come in. The pattern is obvious and amusing.

Not saying that Frank is some kind of amazing player right now but to say that he doesn't have potential to be is an obvious lie or a basketball knowledge deficient miscalculation.

Cheering for player development, then realizing that it takes longer than a few games to actually see some results then complaining about it as if they were an "expert" just shows how impatient and mentally invalid this "fanbase" is.

Thanks for the corroboration.

One of the schisms that occurs is because many people are actually very poor judges of talent, i.e. potential. IOW, they only know how to gauge results.

But that is not how great teams happen. If you only built teams based on results you'd always be trying to be the 90s Yankees and buying stars and we know how that doesn't work in the NBA.

FACT: The only way to win a ring in the NBA is by betting on young talent and developing it and maybe then adding free agent talent that completes the puzzle.

The problem we're seeing with this fan base is there are many who treat the first step as if it is the final step. They want their rookies to behave like polished veterans and when they don't get what they want they behave like brats.

That's not how any of this works. This is a tiresome process of watching many boring games where people perform like crap until they figure out how to optimize their talents.

There are only maybe 2 or 3 players who enter the league every year who are fully ready for prime time. The rest take 2-4 years to get fully on track. Somehow 20 years of failure has not educated this fan base about these very basic facts and we still have a bunch of grubby, feed me immediately malcontents who want everything served up to them on a silver platter now. Sorry, that's now how this works.

Yooo I’m so glad you said this. There’s so many people on this board that can’t see past the immediate future. Imagine if we had any of Lowry, Derozan, Wall, Butler, Hayward, or Kemba in their early years. We would have run them out of NY. Or imagine we tried the incremental improvement approach like Utah, Denver, Houston, or Toronto. I can’t see it happen. Not here. Not with these fans

[taj2133]

He so complacent that he isn't even taking his 5 min stint and subsequent benching as a wake up call.

yeah he is a little to carefree about it for my tastes..

That’s who he is. Can’t be a NY PG like that. We need to make him play summer ball in NYC parks to toughen him up and then move him to SG...where he belongs(after we trade Tim Tim)

I don't which is worst frank being so gullible and believing fizdale took him out sunday night just see other players play the point guard position or frank doesn't care attitude on why he got bench. I don't like this kid attitude he is not taking this job seriously at all and that's not a good sign.

[Clyde_Style]

People here have been so badly damaged psychologically by decades of losing, they forget about team basketball and are only able to see box scores and watch youtube highlight tapes to judge how valuable a player is to the team. From the "fanbase" on this board, more often than not, the one that dislikes Frank tends to have an obvious appetite for 1 on 1 players and athletic finishers and more often than not fold at the first sign of adversity within a game and call for the tank brigade to come in. The pattern is obvious and amusing.

Not saying that Frank is some kind of amazing player right now but to say that he doesn't have potential to be is an obvious lie or a basketball knowledge deficient miscalculation.

Cheering for player development, then realizing that it takes longer than a few games to actually see some results then complaining about it as if they were an "expert" just shows how impatient and mentally invalid this "fanbase" is.

Thanks for the corroboration.

One of the schisms that occurs is because many people are actually very poor judges of talent, i.e. potential. IOW, they only know how to gauge results.

But that is not how great teams happen. If you only built teams based on results you'd always be trying to be the 90s Yankees and buying stars and we know how that doesn't work in the NBA.

FACT: The only way to win a ring in the NBA is by betting on young talent and developing it and maybe then adding free agent talent that completes the puzzle.

The problem we're seeing with this fan base is there are many who treat the first step as if it is the final step. They want their rookies to behave like polished veterans and when they don't get what they want they behave like brats.

That's not how any of this works. This is a tiresome process of watching many boring games where people perform like crap until they figure out how to optimize their talents.

There are only maybe 2 or 3 players who enter the league every year who are fully ready for prime time. The rest take 2-4 years to get fully on track. Somehow 20 years of failure has not educated this fan base about these very basic facts and we still have a bunch of grubby, feed me immediately malcontents who want everything served up to them on a silver platter now. Sorry, that's now how this works.

Yooo I’m so glad you said this. There’s so many people on this board that can’t see past the immediate future. Imagine if we had any of Lowry, Derozan, Wall, Butler, Hayward, or Kemba in their early years. We would have run them out of NY. Or imagine we tried the incremental improvement approach like Utah, Denver, Houston, or Toronto. I can’t see it happen. Not here. Not with these fans

Yeah, but let's at least give a shout out to the fans here who get it because they are definitely here. The problem with RealGM right now is the ones who don't get it are doing their best to dominate the board so it takes a calloused bastard like me to push back at them now and then.

[Clyde_Style]

yeah he is a little to carefree about it for my tastes..

That’s who he is. Can’t be a NY PG like that. We need to make him play summer ball in NYC parks to toughen him up and then move him to SG...where he belongs(after we trade Tim Tim)

I don't which is worst frank being so gullible and believing fizdale took him out sunday night just see other players play the point guard position or frank doesn't care attitude on why he got bench. I don't like this kid attitude he is not taking this job seriously at all and that's not a good sign.

You just said Frank Ntilikina doesn't take his job seriously. What the hell do you know about how people approach their jobs as professionals? You're obviously so inexperienced in life that you wouldn't know the first thing about what doing a job well means so think before you post. Frank is 20 and a foreigner playing in a professional league and learning the ropes. What do you know about what it takes to make it in the world?

[Sark]

He's 20 **** years old. Relax.

Not every player comes into the league as ready as you guys want them to be. I can think of numerous lotto picks that took time to get better.

Noah Vonleh.
Trey Burke.
Emmanuel Mudiay.
Mario Hezonja.

Just to name a few.

i'm not sure that naming four top-10 picks who salvaged their nba careers by becoming rotational players off the bench is the best way to make your point about frank. not being ready isn't the same thing as not having the goods.

but i do like what vonleh is doing in his role here. good get.

I mean there's others, such as Victor Oladipo, or Giannis. Figured I would use guys that are closer to home though.

[taj2133]

That’s who he is. Can’t be a NY PG like that. We need to make him play summer ball in NYC parks to toughen him up and then move him to SG...where he belongs(after we trade Tim Tim)

I don't which is worst frank being so gullible and believing fizdale took him out sunday night just see other players play the point guard position or frank doesn't care attitude on why he got bench. I don't like this kid attitude he is not taking this job seriously at all and that's not a good sign.

You just said Frank Ntilikina doesn't take his job seriously. What the hell do you know about how people approach their jobs as professionals? You're obviously so inexperienced in life that you wouldn't know the first thing about what doing a job well means so think before you post. Frank is 20 and he's playing in a professional league and learning the ropes. What do you know about what it takes to make it in the world?

Frank didn't know why he got benched on sunday night like he bought fizdale excuse on playing other players, come on man he should why got bench for sucking the last 6 out of 7 games. I so sick and tired of the excuses he only 20 or he from a different country us as knick fans need stop give this kid excuses.

[Clyde_Style]

I don't which is worst frank being so gullible and believing fizdale took him out sunday night just see other players play the point guard position or frank doesn't care attitude on why he got bench. I don't like this kid attitude he is not taking this job seriously at all and that's not a good sign.

You just said Frank Ntilikina doesn't take his job seriously. What the hell do you know about how people approach their jobs as professionals? You're obviously so inexperienced in life that you wouldn't know the first thing about what doing a job well means so think before you post. Frank is 20 and he's playing in a professional league and learning the ropes. What do you know about what it takes to make it in the world?

Frank didn't know why he got benched on sunday night like he bought fizdale excuse on playing other players, come on man he should why got bench for sucking the last 6 out of 7 games. I so sick and tired of the excuses he only 20 or he from a different country us as knick fans need stop give this kid excuses.

Project much?

You don't know jack about what Frank knows.

What he says is another thing entirely.

Spare us the cheap psychological interpretations. You are not good at it.

[Greenie]

People got pissed when I called Frank a tall Pat Bev last year...

And you got pissed for six years when people told you your pet Melo was a black hole and you're still typing two page defenses of the worst team player in the league (who is as of now a former NBA player unless some desperate team picks him up) so it is safe to say you still don't know anything about how to evaluate what constitutes a player who can contribute to a winning team.

Leave me the fuq alone. Mods have told you that way too many times. Leave me the fuq alone.

[2010]

In Frank's mind being more aggressive means taking the W I D E O P E N looks the defense is giving him. Shots that would be obvious to everyone else. Knox is younger than Frank, not a PG - so he has the ball in his hands a lot less - yet is not afraid to get his shots up in good volume, and somehow still manages to get labeled as passive. If Knox is passive then iono wtf Frank is.

[2010]

There's nothing trashy about his take. It is consistent with the posts in this board. He is saying the same thing dozens of pro-Frank people have said, making proclamations that cover a range of people in broad and inaccurate strokes. Be consistent in the criticism of posting styles.

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Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe if I put it in hipster? You understand me perfectly well. You just don't have an answer.

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I'm starting to like this term relative to basketball. Props to sims!

[2010]

Clyde, why you gotta insult everyone who has a different opinion on Frank though?

A lot of the concerns on how Frank has been playing and now what he is saying in that last interview are legit.

And not everyone is writing him off or merely boxscore reading. Yeah, he is a project but when we are witnessing observations across the journey we are allowed to provide commentary based on what we're seeing and hearing from him.

For a good stretch now Frank hasn't been playing like he is hungry. And now in this latest interview he is talkng like your FrankfROOTER meme...like "Frank dgaf" about getting yanked, chained to the bench and never returning. Now he is likely losing his starting spot to Mudiay and quite frankly, he doesn't seem too bothered by any of it. He seems to think the PG job is some sort of kindergarten platoon where everyone gets a turn. This is concerning now matter how you or others try to spin it.

[Clyde_Style]

Is English your first language, because that really makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe if I put it in hipster? You understand me perfectly well. You just don't have an answer.

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I'm starting to like this term relative to basketball. Props to Sims!

Before you get too comfortable with the term at least recognize that labeling anything "hipster" fits the contemporary vogue of intellectual laziness for smearing something as trendy when you don't want to deal with the actual substance of the thing you are critiquing.

[Clyde_Style]

Clyde, why you gotta insult everyone who has a different opinion on Frank though?

A lot of the concerns on how Frank has been playing and now what he is saying in that last interview are legit.

Don't be dense. How many thousand times have I said nobody knows what his mindset will be in the future?

What he said in the interview can be spinned however you want to spin it man. Be real then. I didn't spin anything about what he said. However, when people are determined to prove Frank is X, Y or Z, then his interview can be retrofitted to make it however you want it to be.

We get it. He's not savage. He clearly states he wants to help the team. Some of you think he is clueless about what that is and don't want to wait to see if he can figure that out fully. And to those people I say piss off, because if you can't find it within your conception of hoops to entertain the possibility of how an elite 20 year defender can find his role on the other end of the floor in the next few years then I don't care what you think.

Everything is now, now, now for some cats here and it is truly sad.