PG Thread: No Limit Tanks

[Billy Goat]

Knicks have a roster full of replacement level players. It’s not the fans fault the roster stinks. At this point you just have to hope the lottery balls fall correctly and they can get a star, because it’s been way too long. Luca would have been a godsend. The Knicks just aren’t very talented. Dissecting Frank and Hardaway like they’re ever going to matter seems pointless.

[robillionaire]

Dirk in his prime was better than Davis (and Garnett who was also mentioned in this thread). He led a team with no other All-Stars to the Finals twice, winning one championship and one FMVP trophy.

AD doesn't have Dirk's gravitational pull. He's nowhere near Dirk in terms of overall impact, at least not yet. He still heavily relies on his teammates. I personally don't think he will ever be the offensive centerpiece of a championship team.

I agree but keep in mind people said the same things about dirk for years until it actually happened. that he could never win as a teams best player. and he was arguably a little bit past his prime when he did win. the story about davis hasn't been written yet, not even close.

It's true, I remember that but that narrative was always overblown.

Dirk had already led the Mavs to the Finals in 2006 and they could have (arguably should have) won this series. There was no other All-Star on his team in 06 either. He scored the game-tying basket in Game 7 of the WCSF in San Antonio to move past the defending champions Spurs. He scored 50 in the WCF the same year. It's true that AD's career hasn't been written yet but wake me up when he performs at this level in the playoffs. Dirk was 27 in 2006, AD's 25 so he's getting there but still has room to improve as you said (or impled).

Not to take anything from Dirk because he’s probably my favorite player of all time, but in 06 he didn’t have to deal with this stacked Warriors team that so far nobody has been able to overcome. Now in 2011 he did defeat 3 historically stacked teams so all credit to him there.

Last year in the playoffs Davis averaged 30.1 PPG and 13.4 rpg and 2.3 blocks. He was playing at an elite level as I’ve ever seen. And he too as the lone all-star. He just ran into a buzzsaw in this stacked warriors team. The funny thing is when they swept Portland I was saying I was getting Dirk vibes from his performance, and truly thought he would single handedly drag that team to the finals, but it wasn’t to be.

[FKF]

Frankly, all the knocks against Frank that I’m reading on this board, were the same against Boris Diaw, Nicolas Batum, Mike Pietrus who entered the NBA. Cant create his own shot, can’t dribble, overpasses, looks too passive. Among all these French, Tony Parker was the only one to get into the league and make big shots for the Spurs, and dude had an HOF career. But all these French still turned themselves into valuable nba players that the Knicks could have used.

Bottom line is Frank is a student of French INSEP, which promotes team oriented offense, and pride on defense. It looks like some Knicks fans are watching such a kid for the 1st time. It doesn’t make Frank a worse pick than Dennis Smith, and it certainly doesn’t mean we need to open the door to a lottery bust like Mudiay for the point guard job.
Ntilikina is 20 for X sakes, nothing wrong with him being raw at this age, and we should be using his strengths today that our starting unit needs, rather than put himself in a corner and blaming him for being someone he’s not.

And he should be using the starter minutes to get better in other areas of his game. Playing time is not be guaranteed, if Frank sucks on a bad night, he should be benched throughout the game and in the second half, I get it. But he should not be removed from the starting lineup and pushed in a bad position that will hurt his development as a point guard.

It makes no sense for the Knicks not to use Franks knowledge of this game, and both current and future abilities, for busts like Mudiay, Burke, who will get this franchise nowhere. Frank can lead it to another level. Apart from healthy KP, he is our biggest asset in the league market, and should be treated as such.

[Jeff Van Gully]

This game reminded me a little bit of the Knicks season before Donnie Walsh panicked and pulled the trigger on the Carmelo Anthony trade.

If memory serves, the Knicks were a scrappy bunch, had a lot of nice secondary and tertiary pieces blooming under D'Antoni's system but clearly NOT a playoff contender.

That's because the Knicks never drafted too high or too low...and Gallinari had some injury issues.

Donnie went all in...and the rest is history.

ummm... they arguably had the league MVP to that point and were in the playoff picture.

[Mecca]

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

clown comment

Explain perspective instead of resorting to insult

[Phish Tank]

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

This is dumb for a multitude of reasons. But no competent NBA GM would do this. Especially before free agency begins.

Also, there's no team that would give us an expiring contract anyways this season for either one of those players, even if you included Frank in any of those deals.

Finally, players like Frank Ntilikina shouldn't ever be used as sweeteners in any deals.

[Phish Tank]

This game reminded me a little bit of the Knicks season before Donnie Walsh panicked and pulled the trigger on the Carmelo Anthony trade.

If memory serves, the Knicks were a scrappy bunch, had a lot of nice secondary and tertiary pieces blooming under D'Antoni's system but clearly NOT a playoff contender.

That's because the Knicks never drafted too high or too low...and Gallinari had some injury issues.

Donnie went all in...and the rest is history.

ummm... they arguably had the league MVP to that point and were in the playoff picture.

don't reason with folks who believe in alternative facts.

[Mecca]

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

clown comment

My dream scenario is the 6ers want Lee for Chandler and we don't have to give up an asset, and Tim goes off against a team like the Kings who trade us expirings for him

Guess he just really wants to trade Frank

Lee hasn’t played this year and isn’t significantly better than Chandler.

Tim has a 15% trade kicker on top of his contract. It isn’t realistic to get out of both contracts without an asset.

[DOT]

clown comment

My dream scenario is the 6ers want Lee for Chandler and we don't have to give up an asset, and Tim goes off against a team like the Kings who trade us expirings for him

Guess he just really wants to trade Frank

Lee hasn’t played this year and isn’t significantly better than Chandler.

Tim has a 15% trade kicker on top of his contract. It isn’t realistic to get out of both contracts without an asset.

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

isn’t realistic

Pick one

[mpharris36]

My dream scenario is the 6ers want Lee for Chandler and we don't have to give up an asset, and Tim goes off against a team like the Kings who trade us expirings for him

Guess he just really wants to trade Frank

Lee hasn’t played this year and isn’t significantly better than Chandler.

Tim has a 15% trade kicker on top of his contract. It isn’t realistic to get out of both contracts without an asset.

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

isn’t realistic

Pick one

i think he is suggesting trading multiple 2nd rounders to move lee

and use frank to move THjr

which I think is a HORRIBLE decision but I think that is what he was suggesting.

[DOT]

Lee hasn’t played this year and isn’t significantly better than Chandler.

Tim has a 15% trade kicker on top of his contract. It isn’t realistic to get out of both contracts without an asset.

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

isn’t realistic

Pick one

i think he is suggesting trading multiple 2nd rounders to move lee

and use frank to move THjr

which I think is a HORRIBLE decision but I think that is what he was suggesting.

I get what he's saying

I'm just saying, you can't call it a "dream scenario" and then say it has to be realistic

And it'd probably be better for us to trade pick(s) to get rid of Tim, not players, especially one like Frank that would fit in perfectly with us signing KD/Kemba and getting a top pick

[mpharris36]

Pick one

i think he is suggesting trading multiple 2nd rounders to move lee

and use frank to move THjr

which I think is a HORRIBLE decision but I think that is what he was suggesting.

I get what he's saying

I'm just saying, you can't call it a "dream scenario" and then say it has to be realistic

And it'd probably be better for us to trade pick(s) to get rid of Tim, not players, especially one like Frank that would fit in perfectly with us signing KD/Kemba and getting a top pick

i think the isn't realistic part was directed at getting out of either contract without an asset. Which you were hoping to move lee for chandler. That is what I think he thought was unrealistic.

I think there is no situation where we should be trading our few assets to move contracts. We simply aren't in position to do that. Let alone for a guy that doesn't warrant a max contract like Kemba.

[whocares1]

Frankly, all the knocks against Frank that I’m reading on this board, were the same against Boris Diaw, Nicolas Batum, Mike Pietrus who entered the NBA. Cant create his own shot, can’t dribble, overpasses, looks too passive. Among all these French, Tony Parker was the only one to get into the league and make big shots for the Spurs, and dude had an HOF career. But all these French still turned themselves into valuable nba players that the Knicks could have used.

Bottom line is Frank is a student of French INSEP, which promotes team oriented offense, and pride on defense. It looks like some Knicks fans are watching such a kid for the 1st time. It doesn’t make Frank a worse pick than Dennis Smith, and it certainly doesn’t mean we need to open the door to a lottery bust like Mudiay for the point guard job.
Ntilikina is 20 for X sakes, nothing wrong with him being raw at this age, and we should be using his strengths today that our starting unit needs, rather than put himself in a corner and blaming him for being someone he’s not.

And he should be using the starter minutes to get better in other areas of his game. Playing time is not be guaranteed, if Frank sucks on a bad night, he should be benched throughout the game and in the second half, I get it. But he should not be removed from the starting lineup and pushed in a bad position that will hurt his development as a point guard.

It makes no sense for the Knicks not to use Franks knowledge of this game, and both current and future abilities, for busts like Mudiay, Burke, who will get this franchise nowhere. Frank can lead it to another level. Apart from healthy KP, he is our biggest asset in the league market, and should be treated as such.

Lol. I wouldn’t call Mudiay and Burke “busts” I don’t think they ever had insane expectations to begin with, and they’ve showed flashes of being competent NBA players to some capacity.

I wouldnt overstate Frank being our second biggest asset (untrue), or discuss his basketball intelligence. His problem is simply that he can’t shoot. It doesn’t matter how many minutes he plays, whether it’s 5 or 45. Frank will look the same way if he’s not hitting his shots. Haters will say he suck, Fanatics will say he’s young. He looks his best at the 1, but when he’s not hitting his shots it doesn’t matter that he can convert simple pick and rolls. He’s going to be very useful if he develops a consistent outside shot. Until then, it’s pointless to cry about his minutes.

[TheBigBoss]

Lee hasn’t played this year and isn’t significantly better than Chandler.

Tim has a 15% trade kicker on top of his contract. It isn’t realistic to get out of both contracts without an asset.

My dream scenario will continue to be to use Frank to get out of THJ/Lee contracts to bring Kemba in with KD.

isn’t realistic

Pick one

i think he is suggesting trading multiple 2nd rounders to move lee

and use frank to move THjr

which I think is a HORRIBLE decision but I think that is what he was suggesting.

One thing that people should keep in mind is that Tim's contract ezpires the same year as AD, if the Pelicans decide to trade AD it will likely be during that final year. Tim, Knox, Mitch, whoever we draft this year, and an unprotected pick for AD puts us in the conversation for a deal. Im just saying that maybe we shouldnt be so quick to dump Tim at all cost.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Frankly, all the knocks against Frank that I’m reading on this board, were the same against Boris Diaw, Nicolas Batum, Mike Pietrus who entered the NBA. Cant create his own shot, can’t dribble, overpasses, looks too passive. Among all these French, Tony Parker was the only one to get into the league and make big shots for the Spurs, and dude had an HOF career. But all these French still turned themselves into valuable nba players that the Knicks could have used.

Bottom line is Frank is a student of French INSEP, which promotes team oriented offense, and pride on defense. It looks like some Knicks fans are watching such a kid for the 1st time. It doesn’t make Frank a worse pick than Dennis Smith, and it certainly doesn’t mean we need to open the door to a lottery bust like Mudiay for the point guard job.
Ntilikina is 20 for X sakes, nothing wrong with him being raw at this age, and we should be using his strengths today that our starting unit needs, rather than put himself in a corner and blaming him for being someone he’s not.

And he should be using the starter minutes to get better in other areas of his game. Playing time is not be guaranteed, if Frank sucks on a bad night, he should be benched throughout the game and in the second half, I get it. But he should not be removed from the starting lineup and pushed in a bad position that will hurt his development as a point guard.

It makes no sense for the Knicks not to use Franks knowledge of this game, and both current and future abilities, for busts like Mudiay, Burke, who will get this franchise nowhere. Frank can lead it to another level. Apart from healthy KP, he is our biggest asset in the league market, and should be treated as such.

Lol. I wouldn’t call Mudiay and Burke “busts” I don’t think they ever had insane expectations to begin with, and they’ve showed flashes of being competent NBA players to some capacity.

I wouldnt overstate Frank being our second biggest asset (untrue), or discuss his basketball intelligence. His problem is simply that he can’t shoot. It doesn’t matter how many minutes he plays, whether it’s 5 or 45. Frank will look the same way if he’s not hitting his shots. Haters will say he suck, Fanatics will say he’s young. He looks his best at the 1, but when he’s not hitting his shots it doesn’t matter that he can convert simple pick and rolls. He’s going to be very useful if he develops a consistent outside shot. Until then, it’s pointless to cry about his minutes.

frank has to continue to be aggressive with his shooting until it falls consistently. from there, he can operate better. driving lanes open up and teams respect him more.

i was basically a stretch 4. and when other bigs started to respect my jumpshot i was able to freeze them on shot fakes and drive by. i wasn't a guard looking to create, but if they closed the lane i looked to pass. usually that rim protector was the guy i got past so i could go strong to the cup.

frank doesn't have that same luxury. as there's usually a big waiting for his drive and better more athletic defenders than anything i faced in rec leagues. but if he's not going to put his defender in a pickle, especially off the p/r, then he's not going to pan out as more than that patrick beverley type. even though he has much better offensive instincts.

[dakomish23]

• Youngest Team in the NBA.

• THREE Rookies starting.

• We almost beat the Pelicans.

... How about we actually let these guys develop and get past their ROOKIE contracts BEFORE we label ANYONE a **** bust?!?!

Geez man, can some of y'all get a clue already?!

--Mags

Who was it about? Frank or Knox? Or both?

Knox this time. Can you believe it?!

--Mags

16 games in. This might be a record

[dakomish23]

Pick one

i think he is suggesting trading multiple 2nd rounders to move lee

and use frank to move THjr

which I think is a HORRIBLE decision but I think that is what he was suggesting.

One thing that people should keep in mind is that Tim's contract ezpires the same year as AD, if the Pelicans decide to trade AD it will likely be during that final year. Tim, Knox, Mitch, whoever we draft this year, and an unprotected pick for AD puts us in the conversation for a deal. Im just saying that maybe we shouldnt be so quick to dump Tim at all cost.

AD has an opt out in 2020

[OpiumDose]

I find it a bit amusing that some people here insist that Frank will eventually definitely start hitting his shots if he just keeps shooting. Like there is no possibility that the shooting percentages that he has accumulated in his 94 NBA appearances (36% FG% ; 30.4 3P%) could actually mean that he is a bad shooter. He might have a good looking stroke, but the sample size grows with every game that he plays and the numbers are still way below league average. There are players who are bad shooters (look at Rubio, for example) and it just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying Frank will forever shoot as bad as he has up to now, but I definitely would not be surprised if that happened. What I am surprised about is the conviction here that he will definitely improve eventually. And he might improve and still be below average shooter - he is that far behind the averages now.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I find it a bit amusing that some people here insist that Frank will eventually definitely start hitting his shots if he just keeps shooting.

who has said that?

we'll never find out for sure without time. we'd be doing ourselves a disservice to not use the present opportunity to find out. frank could never put his scoring together. always a possibility... but if he doesn't get a chance to work out the kinks as a young and admitteedly raw player...

[robillionaire]

Who was it about? Frank or Knox? Or both?

Knox this time. Can you believe it?!

--Mags

16 games in. This might be a record

Some things never change

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/18/sports/fans-hurl-posters-at-knicks-in-defeat.html