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PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin'

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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#241 » by FemaleDogPlease » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:15 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
The only guys I trust to play with the kids and actually help them develop are Lee, LFT & Vonleh. Guys who aren’t going to hijack the offense, can shoot (in theory for LFT) and will play competent defense.

Would it kill them to do

Frank
Lee Trier
Dot LFT
Knox
Mitch Vonleh

I get why you play Mario & Mudiay in this mix too. Burke Kanter & THJ I wouldn’t mind if we didn’t have these options.

But pick a lane that has the kids playing together a lot. This isn’t 08-10, when we knew we sucked but didn’t have a ton of kids to play. We have the youth to focus on. There’s no reason that at least 3 of the kids aren’t on the floor together at all times.

Maybe it’s extreme but we need extreme.


You must want Fiz to lose the locker room. Guys need to earn their minutes and be accountable. Kanter was sent to the bench and Robinson wasn't able to handle being a starter.


That’s not a good excuse. You’re going to prevent picking a direction that focused on development b/c you’re afraid of losing a locker room full of guys who won’t be here next year?

Think long term, for once.


Longterm? Only pieces worth keeping are THJ, Knox, and Robinson. They are all getting minutes.

It's called credibility. The players like playing for Fiz. Fiz tells the players why they are benched. He tells them what they need to do to get minutes.

Season isn't even half completed and people crying about minutes Dotson, Knox, and Frank are getting. 1 is a rookie. The other 2 are ok at best. But yes let's play them 30+ minutes because they are young.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#242 » by MaseInYourFace » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:16 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:A problem is that Fiz is trying to keep everyone happy and play everyone, but there are just too many guys to play. So he rotates guys in and out of the lineup, and switches roles around.

That is tough especially young players. Given our position, it makes much more sense to focus on the youth and cut some of the vets or players who won't be here out.


On that alone they need to get rid of some players.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#243 » by Deeeez Knicks » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:20 pm

MaseInYourFace wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:A problem is that Fiz is trying to keep everyone happy and play everyone, but there are just too many guys to play. So he rotates guys in and out of the lineup, and switches roles around.

That is tough especially young players. Given our position, it makes much more sense to focus on the youth and cut some of the vets or players who won't be here out.


On that alone they need to get rid of some players.


We should...if it was me, i would look to move Burke, Mudiay, Lee, Mario, Timmy (not happening). Not sure if management is thinking that way. It really sounded like Frank would be the odd man out.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#244 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:21 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
MaseInYourFace wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
That’s not a good excuse. You’re going to prevent picking a direction that focused on development b/c you’re afraid of losing a locker room full of guys who won’t be here next year?

Think long term, for once.


A coach is gonna play who is on the roster unless said roster is changed or the coach is specifically ordered to play certain guys.


I’m not putting this all on him. It absolutely has to be an organizational decision to focus on the kids for once. But when not given that edict, he’s given longer leashes to those who have had more than their share of awful performances.


I'll use this to expand on an earlier post that management needs to "get with the rebuild edict"

I think they have
I also think, that wisely, they are getting minutes for Vonleh, Mario and Mudiay. See my other posts on it.
Burke a little left out but I think they already "did him right" last year and his brief runs this year.

Main point: As passionate fans we are going all in over percentage of minutes or consistency. The youth has been served and played. It's not THAT bad. I (and probably most everybody else) just figures they can play some more minutes, with a little more consistency.

It's time for Fiz to settle on a rotation. He sort of did. For the starters. Now he needs to tweak the minutes for the bench.

Also, a trade would help if Burke or CLee or both, but honestly, for now, Burke, for the good of Burke and the team. It would be fair.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#245 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:23 pm

FemaleDogPlease wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:
You must want Fiz to lose the locker room. Guys need to earn their minutes and be accountable. Kanter was sent to the bench and Robinson wasn't able to handle being a starter.


That’s not a good excuse. You’re going to prevent picking a direction that focused on development b/c you’re afraid of losing a locker room full of guys who won’t be here next year?

Think long term, for once.


Longterm? Only pieces worth keeping are THJ, Knox, and Robinson. They are all getting minutes.

It's called credibility. The players like playing for Fiz. Fiz tells the players why they are benched. He tells them what they need to do to get minutes.

Season isn't even half completed and people crying about minutes Dotson, Knox, and Frank are getting. 1 is a rookie. The other 2 are ok at best. But yes let's play them 30+ minutes because they are young.


You don't think Dotson, Frank, Trier have any long term value? Interesting.

Wouldn't it be of value to use this year and next, when they are under contract, to figure it out? And when I say value, I acknowledge that value may be quality bench players which every team could use and use some continuity around.

And I'm not sure that THJr's value is all that.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#246 » by FemaleDogPlease » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:34 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
That’s not a good excuse. You’re going to prevent picking a direction that focused on development b/c you’re afraid of losing a locker room full of guys who won’t be here next year?

Think long term, for once.


Longterm? Only pieces worth keeping are THJ, Knox, and Robinson. They are all getting minutes.

It's called credibility. The players like playing for Fiz. Fiz tells the players why they are benched. He tells them what they need to do to get minutes.

Season isn't even half completed and people crying about minutes Dotson, Knox, and Frank are getting. 1 is a rookie. The other 2 are ok at best. But yes let's play them 30+ minutes because they are young.


You don't think Dotson, Frank, Trier have any long term value? Interesting.

Wouldn't it be of value to use this year and next, when they are under contract, to figure it out? And when I say value, I acknowledge that value may be quality bench players which every team could use and use some continuity around.

And I'm not sure that THJr's value is all that.


Knicks own multiple picks over the next few years. We will have an influx of youth every year. Guys need to earn their spots.

Trier looks solid but this team has to many tweeners. Also I don't know how his 2 way contract works.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#247 » by j4remi » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:46 pm

For the better part of three quarters, the Knicks looked listless and got kicked in the teeth. The offense lacked flow, the defense lacked existence and the game was trending toward another 20 point blowout. David Fizdale looked to his bench, a veritable rubix cube of variations so difficult to manage that it might better be described as the puzzle box from Hell Raiser. "What combination of players haven't I tried yet? I've tried everything! I haven't even used a back-up point guard for three games..." I won't pretend to understand that amalgamations of an NBA headcoach, but having just been through Derek Fisher and Jeff Hornacek; I'd imagine that Knicks coaches often wonder "what would Whoopie Goldberg do?" ...and so it was, that Fiz finally played the goddamn kids. And after three quarters of "I'm not sure if I can take this for another 50 games" the entirety of Knicks fandom got to breath a collective sigh of "so that's why they drafted those guys..."

Mudiay: It's weird, because Emmanuel Mudiay's developments seem to be sticking but recent games feel like a regression. The starting PG is still hitting three's, driving aggressively and putting up solid numbers. But recent efforts have seen a drop off defensively and far too many turnovers for Mudiay's lack of playmaking this season. Muddy had 13 points and 4 assists to 3 TO's on 4/10 shooting with a pair of three pointers. He wasn't terrible, but not good either.

Hardaway: Last night David Fizdale talked about how the entire roster has responded well to DNP's, I'd like to make a suggestion about Tim Hardaway Jr. All jokes aside, Tim Hardaway is making it easy to forget how well he played early on in the season with this recent stretch. This is the focal point of the offense and he can't make the easy shots but exacerbates that by forcing tough ones too. When he started struggling, at least THJ was providing some defensive moments or creating for others with passing but that's all but evaporated too. Tim had 7 points on 2 for 12 shooting without making a three pointer in 5 tries.

Hezonja: It's worrisome that this was probably one of Mario Hezonja's better offensive performances and the Knicks got smacked plus were unwatchable. Mario had the three ball dialed in and got after the boards to the tune of 12 points and 5 rebounds over 27 minutes. He was 4 of 8 from the field as well, playing efficiently. The problem is that the Nets really picked on him defensively. Mario might get through the first screen, but you send him through a second one and it's game over. He also does this T-Rex thing where if you stand still for a few seconds, he'll just ball watch and you've become invisible. So hit the corner, stand still for 3 or so seconds and there's a great chance you can hit a backdoor cut while Mario wanders.

Vonleh: It was one of Noah Vonleh's most muted performances and he was still by far my favorite starter on the floor. He only had 21 minutes to put together 4 points, 4 assists to 2 TO's, 3 rebounds and 3 steals. Nothing leaps out from his performance which is a good thing because most others looked bad instead of average.

Kanter: My theme with Kanter and Vonleh recently continues. You pretty much know what you're gonna get from these guys without too crazy of a deviation. Kanter had 23 points, 14 boards and 3 assists over 26 minutes of time. He was hyper efficient with 10 makes on 13 tries and not a single TO (a nice sign in an area he's struggled some); he was also not good on defense. He is who he is and the tough job is figuring out how to utilize his strengths while mitigating his weaknesses.

Lee: Just gonna get this one out of the way. Lee only got 3 minutes of playing time and hasn't gelled with his teammates yet. I'm not gonna knock him, he probably needs some time, of which Hezonja could share plenty.

Trier: Isn't it nice to see Allonzo Trier get back to forcing defenses onto their toes from the second he approaches? Last night should probably be the end of the experiments with Iso-Zo at back-up PG because he's a better player when he can focus on him. Zo had 15 points and 2 rebounds on 5 for 11 shooting while making his way to the line 6 times over the course of 27 minutes. But he was the back-up PG in the first half and didn't get a single assists over his 27 minutes of playing time. The kid is made to score and the feel for passing is a development that he can work on but that will hurt his scoring some in this early going. Also, Trier has to improve defensively to unlock his full potential. The Nets saw Frank, Dotson and Trier last night; then proceeded to attack Trier which is going to happen with that trio out there.

Dotson: Breen hit the jinx hard by pointing out that Damyean Dotson had played 14 minutes without a point. It was almost as if Dot heard the critique, because he went off for consecutive buckets in a run of 10 straight points for the Knicks. The best part is that he did it on a catch and shoot, a pull-up and then a drive; variety is the spice of life. Dotson played 30 minutes and tallied 12 points, 2 assists and 3 boards while knocking down 5 of 10 shots and 2 out of 3 from long distance. His 30 minute clip is likely a result of actually trying on defense when no other wing was, which paid dividends when the fourth quarter unit helped him out by also trying on defense.

Knox: On back to back fourth quarter plays, Kevin Knox ran coast to coast (once dribbling the ball and once receiving a pass as he entered the lane) for fast break finishes that gave a sneak peak of his insane upside. Last game, he flashed just how easily he can get his jumper off unaffected in tight spaces. In this one it was his coordination and speed at that size which gave everyone a pair of "man if he puts everything together"-itis. In 20 minutes Knox had 7 points and 4 boards on 3 of 6 shooting. His motor has looked better, confidence is up and I love that he's tracking down some rebounds nightly.

Mitch: Mitchell Robinson fills the stat sheet up in impressive fashion considering how raw he still is. For 21 minutes of play, Mitch gave the Knicks 4 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals and a block. His 2 makes both came at the rim, one of which was a ludicrous off hand finish of a lob from Frank that was well behind him. Right now that's the only way Mitch can score in the most literal sense though. He doesn't post up, attack face up in space and even missed all three of his free throw attempts; which is to say...he's extremely raw. That Robinson is so productive while dealing with foul trouble and offensive limitations speaks to monster potential. He's already a defensive impact player and his rim running commands attentions.

Frank: After three DNP's in which the Knicks defense fell off a cliff, we were treated to a return from the second youngest player on the roster. Frank worked the pick and roll aggressively, not just as a scorer but also a creator. Ntilikina found 3 assists quickly before the defense began to overcompensate for the pass. That was when Frank took what the defense gave him and knocked down a floater followed by a lefty drive. The French Prince never left the game, adding 7 points on 3 of 6 shooting and 3 assists in 16 minutes. The offensive approach was refreshing to see, as he was consistently calling for the ball or calling out plays to get a hot hand the ball. When Dot was hitting, Frank got him the ball for consecutive makes. Later on, after Knox made a couple of bunnies, Ntilikina gave Knox the rock through a screen at the wing. That subtlety is lost at times. I could get into his defense, but just look at the scoring breakdown. Frank played the entire fourth quarter with Dotson and Mitch out there; there's a reason that trio tracks so strongly by most metrics.

Fiz: It's one of those Fiz things that happens, where he'll have the fans right at their limit before pulling something off. His switch to the Mudiay, Timmy, Hezonja starting unit had Knicks twitter losing their minds before it reeled off a winning streak. Dotson was benched for no apparent reason but came back in with such an explosion that Fiz looked brilliant. Last night after making some seriously head scratching choices (4 wings and one center at a point), David Fizdale blessed the Knicks fans with that youth line-up. It's hard to flip about did not plays when they continually have tangible results. Where there is some room for frustration though is in the lack of accountability for some of these vets. Hezonja's good offense did not offset his awful defense last night and Tim Hardaway's offense hasn't even been good. These guys saw dips in their minutes only because the game was a blowout. They weren't benched when the Nets were toying with the Knicks defense or when they forced bad shots; the game had to be out of hand for those guys to take a seat. That's been the case for a while now.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#248 » by NYKHardKnock » Sun Dec 9, 2018 3:48 pm

You guys have no clue don’t you? Fiz played the entire thing smart taking Frank out of the rotation. Frank was playing like complete dick, so he made him sit so he can get motivating saying if I don’t get my **** straight ima be in Europe in 2 years. It was more of a time out so once he gets back he’ll realize there’s no time to be playing like a bitch boy. Does it really take a mad scientist to understand this?
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#249 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:03 pm

FemaleDogPlease wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:
Longterm? Only pieces worth keeping are THJ, Knox, and Robinson. They are all getting minutes.

It's called credibility. The players like playing for Fiz. Fiz tells the players why they are benched. He tells them what they need to do to get minutes.

Season isn't even half completed and people crying about minutes Dotson, Knox, and Frank are getting. 1 is a rookie. The other 2 are ok at best. But yes let's play them 30+ minutes because they are young.


You don't think Dotson, Frank, Trier have any long term value? Interesting.

Wouldn't it be of value to use this year and next, when they are under contract, to figure it out? And when I say value, I acknowledge that value may be quality bench players which every team could use and use some continuity around.

And I'm not sure that THJr's value is all that.


Knicks own multiple picks over the next few years. We will have an influx of youth every year. Guys need to earn their spots.

Trier looks solid but this team has to many tweeners. Also I don't know how his 2 way contract works.


Understand about the picks. But the presence of 2 expirings - Kanter, Mudiay - and three one year contracts - Burke, Vonleh, Mario - make me think it won't be an issue next year. In the meantime, develop the guys coming back.

The entire talk around it really comes down to about 5 minutes per game each guy and more consistent game to game play.

As I've said, lineup mix and match time should be over, and I think it is. Now rationalize the the rotations and bump the minutes (a little) for the young guys coming back. Seems pretty straightforward.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#250 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:04 pm

Kristaps6_NYK wrote:You guys have no clue don’t you? Fiz played the entire thing smart taking Frank out of the rotation. Frank was playing like complete dick, so he made him sit so he can get motivating saying if I don’t get my **** straight ima be in Europe in 2 years. It was more of a time out so once he gets back he’ll realize there’s no time to be playing like a bitch boy. Does it really take a mad scientist to understand this?


I think everyone understands this. Well, mostly.

The last 5 pages have been about playing all the young guys more consistently and together. Not about Frank.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#251 » by dakomish23 » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:25 pm

FemaleDogPlease wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:
You must want Fiz to lose the locker room. Guys need to earn their minutes and be accountable. Kanter was sent to the bench and Robinson wasn't able to handle being a starter.


That’s not a good excuse. You’re going to prevent picking a direction that focused on development b/c you’re afraid of losing a locker room full of guys who won’t be here next year?

Think long term, for once.


Longterm? Only pieces worth keeping are THJ, Knox, and Robinson. They are all getting minutes.

It's called credibility. The players like playing for Fiz. Fiz tells the players why they are benched. He tells them what they need to do to get minutes.

Season isn't even half completed and people crying about minutes Dotson, Knox, and Frank are getting. 1 is a rookie. The other 2 are ok at best. But yes let's play them 30+ minutes because they are young.


You listed THJ as a keeper but left Dotson off that list.

You really want to talk about credibility?

Playing for Fiz? Give me a break. They’re playing to play. You could coach and they’d play just as hard.

The only people crying are folks who don’t got the patience to let things come to fruition and are happy playing for the now instead of the future. Wahhhhhh I want wins now and I want production now!!!!

Asking for a commitment to the kids during a rebuilding year isn’t crying. It’s logical and rational. But who needs those characteristics when trying to run a franchise, am I right? Let’s hop off and on bandwagons for the guys who help get meaningless wins now. Yay!
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#252 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:28 pm

So, got around to watching this late 3rd/4th quarter.

Man, Trier was straight garbage on defense.

That said, I'd still leave him out there in "the all youth lineup"

For the sake of defensive sanity, Trier probably should take a seat when he's that bad on defense and go with:

Frank
Dot
Knox
Vonleh
Mitch

or

(breaking my own "No Burke with the youth rule)
Frank
Burke
Knox or Dot
Vonleh or Knox
Mitch
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#253 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:29 pm

The team has a roster where at least half wont be back. There has to be some balance to who plays. The young guys aren't gonna soak up all the minutes. That's not even realistic, but they should get fair chances to play.

Imo, they have. the benchings i'm really not concerned with as so far they've all responded well to it.

I still think Fiz is overachieving with this group
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#254 » by dakomish23 » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:29 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:So, got around to watching this late 3rd/4th quarter.

Man, Trier was straight garbage on defense.

That said, I'd still leave him out there in "the all youth lineup"

For the sake of defensive sanity, Trier probably should take a seat when he's that bad on defense and go with:

Frank
Dot
Knox
Vonleh
Mitch

or

(breaking my own "No Burke with the youth rule)
Frank
Burke
Knox or Dot
Vonleh or Knox
Mitch


Go with Lee then.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#255 » by mpharris36 » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:32 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:The team has a roster where at least half wont be back. There has to be some balance to who plays. The young guys aren't gonna soak up all the minutes. That's not even realistic, but they should get fair chances to play.

Imo, they have. the benchings i'm really not concerned with as so far they've all responded well to it.

I still think Fiz is overachieving with this group


I just have been preaching since day one the guys that 100% be here next year should be playing together. Whether thats as starters or bench players I don't care. I don't even need them to play 30 minutes. If we are being fair no one on the roster should be playing 28 minutes if we are playing the right way (direct fiz quote).

Just want those guys to play together because they def have a chemistry and will to want to defend. As far as the other guys...let the "pending FA" guys battle it out together. I don't even mind them starting because usually they will secure the loss with a disastrous 1st qtr and then we can root for the kids to come in free and loose and try to impact the game.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#256 » by DOT » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:36 pm

Nice to see Tim and Mudiay getting hype on the bench for the young guys playing well. Think I saw Lee in there too

Meanwhile Kanter was pouting cause he's the only one who doesn't realize he can't play defense
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#257 » by mpharris36 » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:37 pm

K-DOT wrote:Nice to see Tim and Mudiay getting hype on the bench for the young guys playing well. Think I saw Lee in there too

Meanwhile Kanter was pouting cause he's the only one who doesn't realize he can't play defense


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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#258 » by FemaleDogPlease » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:43 pm

Kanter is thinking about his checks next year. He knows he is a goner.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#259 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Dec 9, 2018 4:59 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:The team has a roster where at least half wont be back. There has to be some balance to who plays. The young guys aren't gonna soak up all the minutes. That's not even realistic, but they should get fair chances to play.

Imo, they have. the benchings i'm really not concerned with as so far they've all responded well to it.

I still think Fiz is overachieving with this group


I just have been preaching since day one the guys that 100% be here next year should be playing together. Whether thats as starters or bench players I don't care. I don't even need them to play 30 minutes. If we are being fair no one on the roster should be playing 28 minutes if we are playing the right way (direct fiz quote).

Just want those guys to play together because they def have a chemistry and will to want to defend. As far as the other guys...let the "pending FA" guys battle it out together. I don't even mind them starting because usually they will secure the loss with a disastrous 1st qtr and then we can root for the kids to come in free and loose and try to impact the game.

That's more than fair.
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Re: PG Thread: Don't be a Frankophobe anymore Fiz, but keep the tank rollin' 

Post#260 » by KNIXFAN_83 » Sun Dec 9, 2018 5:20 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Kristaps6_NYK wrote:You guys have no clue don’t you? Fiz played the entire thing smart taking Frank out of the rotation. Frank was playing like complete dick, so he made him sit so he can get motivating saying if I don’t get my **** straight ima be in Europe in 2 years. It was more of a time out so once he gets back he’ll realize there’s no time to be playing like a bitch boy. Does it really take a mad scientist to understand this?


I think everyone understands this. Well, mostly.

The last 5 pages have been about playing all the young guys more consistently and together. Not about Frank.


Exactly! This isn’t about sitting Frank. It’s about recognizing what this season should be about. And that’s developing Ntilikina, Trier, Dotson, Knox and Robinson. All of these vets have had between 4-6 years to show what they can do and none of them play defense nor show any type of consistency. Play the young guys together.

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