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Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#541 » by Zenzibar » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:38 am

BLACKFEET 2010 wrote:Man I wouldn’t even read that chit lol.

In summary:
Knox yung. Coach ok. We gotta chill.


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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#542 » by aq_ua » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:12 am

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Context wrote:
Read on Twitter


hell of a cut. hell of a pass. hell of a strong finish. one of my favorite plays this season.

kinda hoping DJ can hang around -- especially if he's part of the KD plan.

Makes you wonder how different he would look surrounded by better ball movers and a more seasoned team all around. Knox has the length and speed to make those plays but it’s hard to cut when the floor spacing and passing is poor.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#543 » by malik959 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:23 am

Add muscle - check

O.K what's next on the summer agenda?
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#544 » by Sark » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:00 am

The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#545 » by spree2kawhi » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:49 am

Thread should be named "The" defense of Kevin Knox and focus on his defensive deficiencies. He will be a good pick and roll player on offense though.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#546 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:11 am

Sark wrote:The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/


How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#547 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:13 am

Jeff Van Gully wrote:freaky kid with a lot of tools. length. athleticism. can shoot it. got some handle. way too early to be giving up.


True. That's only for certain French players.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#548 » by Sark » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:38 am

thebuzzardman wrote:
Sark wrote:The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/


How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.



I mean if you have any proof that the team was actually tanking on purpose, outside of the hopes and dreams of some that want to believe we weren't as bad as the record, but decided to tank in the first season that the league punished tankers, then I'd love to hear it.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#549 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:57 am

Sark wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Sark wrote:The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/


How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.



I mean if you have any proof that the team was actually tanking on purpose, outside of the hopes and dreams of some that want to believe we weren't as bad as the record, but decided to tank in the first season that the league punished tankers, then I'd love to hear it.



First off, I'm not stating that the Knicks would have been a .500 team, or even a 30 win team. But I'd say they could have probably gotten another 10 unnecessary wins that they didn't try to find at all.

I don't need to cite proof. There are two scenarios. Fiz is a wildly incompetent coach, or a good deal of this stuff was on purpose.

In fact, force feeding Knox the amount of playing time he got was one clear visible aspect of it.
Pairing Burke and THJr when they did was another.
And so on.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#550 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:58 am

Oh wait, I'm sorry.

Knox sucks
Frank sucks
DSJr sucks
Trier sucks
Dotson ain't that good
Mitch has a ways to go
Kornet shouldn't be in the NBA

Ok. Fixed.

*edited. How could I forget?

RJ Barrett will suck
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#551 » by Juco24 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:43 am

thebuzzardman wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:freaky kid with a lot of tools. length. athleticism. can shoot it. got some handle. way too early to be giving up.


True. That's only for certain French players.


LMBO... I SEE what you did there!!!! :wink:
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#552 » by Juco24 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:44 am

thebuzzardman wrote:Oh wait, I'm sorry.

Knox sucks
Frank sucks
DSJr sucks
Trier sucks
Dotson ain't that good
Mitch has a ways to go
Kornet shouldn't be in the NBA

Ok. Fixed.

*edited. How could I forget?

RJ Barrett will suck


STOP!!! - you're killing me!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#553 » by Context » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:06 pm

Sark wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Sark wrote:The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/


How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.



I mean if you have any proof that the team was actually tanking on purpose, outside of the hopes and dreams of some that want to believe we weren't as bad as the record, but decided to tank in the first season that the league punished tankers, then I'd love to hear it.

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Sark, how many games did you watch last season?
“The kid can play,” Robinson said of Barrett“He goes at everybody strong. If he’s a rookie, and he’s doing that, I think he’ll have a great career ahead of him.”
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#554 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:19 pm

Juco24 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Oh wait, I'm sorry.

Knox sucks
Frank sucks
DSJr sucks
Trier sucks
Dotson ain't that good
Mitch has a ways to go
Kornet shouldn't be in the NBA

Ok. Fixed.

*edited. How could I forget?

RJ Barrett will suck


STOP!!! - you're killing me!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


For my next trick, I'll show you how Spencer Dinwiddie and Joe Harris are better than every player listed there.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#555 » by ny-n-md » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:25 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Sark wrote:The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/


How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.

This

He’s a kid playing in a league of grown men for the first season. You can’t expect him to be great at anything, or even good at a lot of things. That takes time, schemes, lineups and effort. He had some really good stretches where he scored a bunch of points I think averaging around 10 in the first quarter. That’s legit. His stamina and conditioning will help with that.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#556 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:39 pm

Trust me, I'm not trying to give Frank or DSJr or Knox or Trier the Postell/Lampe/Fields treatment and overhype them. There's a chance they'll bust or only be "ok" and I'm not about to call any of them future star.

It's more about development curve and age. 19 year old guys going into the 2nd and 3rd seasons. Obviously the clock is ticking a bit louder for DSJr and Frank, yet it's still EARLY.

People need to adjust the way they analyze players a bit. This is not to say skeptics of any of these players may ultimately be right. I just hold when you draft guys 18, 19 years old, the EXPECTATION should be they'll come around in year 3. Maybe 4. If they show strongly in year 1,2 or 3, that's a bonus.

Even KP was a development pick. And I recall that most people were resigned to the fact, that even as a #4 pick, he'd probably need until his 3rd year, and before summer league (and even after for a bunch of fans) there was an assumption he'd be coming off the bench and playing 15 mpg. Maybe 20. Obviously he panned out decently for years 1 and 2, but it was really year 3 where KP started to put it together. This isn't to say the listed players will achieve KP level - there's a reason he was drafted 4 and they around 8.

Even Barrett will need a couple of years. Here or in NO.

Obviously Trier is older, so he SHOULD be more ready, and he is, but there's still an adjustment and he's not a finished product. Yet. I'm just amused when even he gets detractors. Yeah, he wanders on defense, has tunnel vision too often, but he can flat out score. Basically he came in the league being able to be in ANY team's rotation. Sure, minutes would vary based on the playoff aspirations and talent, but he'd crack ANY NBA rotation. Not bad for UDFA. If he never developed one whit past what he was last year, it was an great pick up. But he will get better.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#557 » by Richard4444 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:18 pm

ny-n-md wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Sark wrote:The on/off numbers for him are depressing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2019/on-off/

We were basically a bad team with off the court, and a historically bad team with him on the court.

RAPM says the same thing essentially. He was ranked 530 out of 530.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true


He was the first player to ever hit -6.0 RAPM since they started tracking this.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/


How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.

This

He’s a kid playing in a league of grown men for the first season. You can’t expect him to be great at anything, or even good at a lot of things. That takes time, schemes, lineups and effort. He had some really good stretches where he scored a bunch of points I think averaging around 10 in the first quarter. That’s legit. His stamina and conditioning will help with that.


Have ever a team given so many minutes to a player so green? A player usually only plays for 30+ minutes a game after showing some evolution. But Knicks roster was so bad that he got the starter job.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#558 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:56 pm

Richard4444 wrote:
ny-n-md wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.

This

He’s a kid playing in a league of grown men for the first season. You can’t expect him to be great at anything, or even good at a lot of things. That takes time, schemes, lineups and effort. He had some really good stretches where he scored a bunch of points I think averaging around 10 in the first quarter. That’s legit. His stamina and conditioning will help with that.


Have ever a team given so many minutes to a player so green? A player usually only plays for 30+ minutes a game after showing some evolution. But Knicks roster was so bad that he got the starter job.


I think they wanted to force feed him his development. The roster was bad, but they could have decided to ride out Super Mario's struggles or went with a quasi 3 guard alignment with Dotson at SF.

They didn't because they weren't looking to win and for whatever reason, figured tossing Knox into the deep end of the poor, right into the fire, etc, was the right move. For tanking, and I guess they figured his development wouldn't suffer and might benefit.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#559 » by malik959 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:01 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Sark wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.



I mean if you have any proof that the team was actually tanking on purpose, outside of the hopes and dreams of some that want to believe we weren't as bad as the record, but decided to tank in the first season that the league punished tankers, then I'd love to hear it.



First off, I'm not stating that the Knicks would have been a .500 team, or even a 30 win team. But I'd say they could have probably gotten another 10 unnecessary wins that they didn't try to find at all.

I don't need to cite proof. There are two scenarios. Fiz is a wildly incompetent coach, or a good deal of this stuff was on purpose.

In fact, force feeding Knox the amount of playing time he got was one clear visible aspect of it.
Pairing Burke and THJr when they did was another.
And so on.


Proof of tanking? Your kidding right? Starting Burke and Mudiay, not playing vets extended minutes (Kanter, Lee), giving an 18yo extended minutes, giving g-league players extended minutes, not running an offense. Come on man this screams tanking. Whoopie should have been coaching.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#560 » by Sark » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:51 pm

Context wrote:
Sark wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
How much of that is Knox and how much of that is that the coach (and FO) basically tried to field the most inept lineups possible, while also committing starting Knox - who granted was part of being an "inept" player, in that he's a 19 year old rookie who needed development time.

Meaning, maybe Knox's team stats wouldn't have looked great regardless, but constantly putting him out there with fellow bad perimeter defenders and a poor help defender in Kanter maybe wasn't the greatest idea. For making nice stats for Knox.

If the plan was not really giving a sh*t about wins or analytics in a meaningless season, other that capturing the worst record, that is.



I mean if you have any proof that the team was actually tanking on purpose, outside of the hopes and dreams of some that want to believe we weren't as bad as the record, but decided to tank in the first season that the league punished tankers, then I'd love to hear it.

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Sark, how many games did you watch last season?


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