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Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#661 » by cooch2584 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:16 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:Knox really needs to work on being a more efficient scorer. he can do that with shooting reps and focusing on blending his game by getting to the line more. He does those two he'd be a vastly better player.

As for defense, he can focus on deflections and taking charges for now. The defensive schemes should hopefully get him to being serviceable.

I'm not worried about Knox developing at all.


The Knox bashing is a bit much. Yes, he was defensively unaware a lot, and he surely was slow - not so much in general, but the awareness combined with not a lot of quickness to laterally slide, made him look pretty bad on defense.

Assuming he'll never be "great" defensively, I'd assume, as has been posted in here before, that some quick twitch quickness can come with physical development/strength, and awareness, both in general, and of individual players.

Offensively, he just needs a more consistent jumpshot, but it's already decent. Also, some more strength will make his drives more effective, which were already pretty effective considering he was one of the youngest players in the league. They got better as the season went on.

A lot of the Knox bashing is just weird. Give him a chance to get to 22 years old. Even 21.



"He'll never be great defensively?" And the fact that Toronto won the chip with great defense doesn't matter?? Any player hasta WANT to play defense. Defense has to be taught but the player has to want to play it. Frank is slow,too slow and I'm afraid his BB IQ just isn't there. I know both him and Knox are very young but I just don't see an improvement process and maybe that's on Fiz. just saying
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#662 » by thebuzzardman » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:23 pm

cooch2584 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:Knox really needs to work on being a more efficient scorer. he can do that with shooting reps and focusing on blending his game by getting to the line more. He does those two he'd be a vastly better player.

As for defense, he can focus on deflections and taking charges for now. The defensive schemes should hopefully get him to being serviceable.

I'm not worried about Knox developing at all.


The Knox bashing is a bit much. Yes, he was defensively unaware a lot, and he surely was slow - not so much in general, but the awareness combined with not a lot of quickness to laterally slide, made him look pretty bad on defense.

Assuming he'll never be "great" defensively, I'd assume, as has been posted in here before, that some quick twitch quickness can come with physical development/strength, and awareness, both in general, and of individual players.

Offensively, he just needs a more consistent jumpshot, but it's already decent. Also, some more strength will make his drives more effective, which were already pretty effective considering he was one of the youngest players in the league. They got better as the season went on.

A lot of the Knox bashing is just weird. Give him a chance to get to 22 years old. Even 21.



"He'll never be great defensively?" And the fact that Toronto won the chip with great defense doesn't matter?? Any player hasta WANT to play defense. Defense has to be taught but the player has to want to play it. Frank is slow,too slow and I'm afraid his BB IQ just isn't there. I know both him and Knox are very young but I just don't see an improvement process and maybe that's on Fiz. just saying


Frank is too slow? WTF? He covers guys fine. Some small fast guys turn the corner on him, sometimes. Which happens to everyone.

Knox was a 19 year old rookie. He was drafted where he was for upside and offensive potential. IF he was drafted as a great or lockdown defender and looked this bad it would be troubling.

Most rookies don't look that good on defense. The younger they are, the worse they tend to look, unless it's their main attribute.
Knox will get better as a defender as he gets older. I suspect he'll turn out "average"

Quit frothing at the mouth. Maybe Knox can't be part of a championship team. Who knows. Since the Knicks will have 6 first rounders over the next 4 years, or whatever it is, they'll be players leaving. Knox might be one, eventually. Maybe Frank.

Doesn't mean it's still a bit early to take this tact on where they are as players or "what a championship team" needs. Please. Maybe Knox sticks around as an offensive sparkplug off the bench. Maybe he gets traded for less gifted offensive player who is better on defense. Who knows.

Keep developing the young guys, get more young guys, trade the young guys if the newer young guys are better, get a superstar who creates for himself and others at some point, hope to be one of 32 teams that wins the chip.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#663 » by DaT WaVeY RiCaN » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:27 pm

br7knicks wrote:every time i see this thread getting bumped up, i hope it's because he's been traded for someone who plays defense. why can't the twolves take knox and trier for culver.

knox and trier are lowIQ, offense only players, like wiggins and KAT. they'll score 150 ppg, but lose all 82. and the knicks will have culver. everyone is happy, and the knicks start winning

Hes a kid lol. Nobody is expecting Knox to be a franchise player but to say he cant contribute or get better at defense WITH HIS LENGTH iS absurd!
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#664 » by cooch2584 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:28 pm

Guards defense is the first line. How many times last year did we watch our guards get blown by and then the second tier of defense was on the center and forwards?
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#665 » by cooch2584 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:33 pm

You cant have 2 defensely challenged players on the court at the same time. Knox and Frank should NEVER be on the court at the same time.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#666 » by cooch2584 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:44 pm

I know I'm old school. Been a Knicks fan since 1967,so maybe I'M biased because I saw some great defensive Knicks teams over the years. But the saying that good defense creates offense should still hold true today. It would surprise a lot of teams if up in your face defense were to be there in this era of basketball.IMHO
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#667 » by Fury » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:46 pm

cooch2584 wrote:You cant have 2 defensely challenged players on the court at the same time. Knox and Frank should NEVER be on the court at the same time.


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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#668 » by br7knicks » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:51 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
br7knicks wrote:
i disagree. don't need him to score a bunch and put up good numbers. just learn to play smart basketball and play even halfway decent defense. he didn't do either one last season.


Im afraid Fiz is just allowing bad habits. Didnt seem to be much direction or coaching last season. So many bad shots.


This is very much a concern.

Knicks have stated they are going down a development path. What the coach allows and teaches is part of it too.

The assumption is, for the glass half full crowd, that Fiz let them freelance etc for max losses. That's an odd thing for a coach to do, as most of them have their system sort of wired into their DNA, but lets assume Fiz is smart and flexible enough to put aside his coaching traits for a year.

It's also a concern as RJ has a rep for needing some guidance in reigning in his game, in terms of forcing shots and decision making. A general assumption seems to be that maximum RJ is unlocked, if possible, by a combination of his own diligence AND a coaching staff that steers him towards better decisions and also role of secondary creator/scorer.

It's the most important subtext of the upcoming year. What style and system does Fiz play, and how strict is he towards holding players accountable within it. That's the offensive side of the ball.

Also looking for more accountability on the defensive side of the ball as well.


That was most of my beef. Fiz allowed way too much **** play from almost everyone.

Not sure how sensitive Knox is. He doesn't come across as sensitive as a guy like lebron or Durant. But if he was fine, fiz should've had him in the dog house a lot more, then helped him.

Knox's shot selection slightly improved towards the last week or two of the season. But he just has a general unawareness of basketball and the game in front of him. If I was optimistic, I'd chalk it up to being too young to have entered the league.

Fiz needs to show some accountability from everyone. Otherwise, I'd like to see him ousted, and I hate coaching changes this frequently.

I assume defense will never click for Knox. But he needs to at least be aware and an average defender.

I'd just rather see a guy like Culver or hunter on the Knicks, who are coming in with defense first. It's easier to develop an offensive game than a defensive game and mentality.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#669 » by br7knicks » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:53 pm

cooch2584 wrote:You cant have 2 defensely challenged players on the court at the same time. Knox and Frank should NEVER be on the court at the same time.


Frank, along with Allen, Mitch, Dotson, and Noah, were great defensively. Frank just couldn't regularly see the court because of injuries and offensive timidness
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#670 » by br7knicks » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:57 pm

DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:
br7knicks wrote:every time i see this thread getting bumped up, i hope it's because he's been traded for someone who plays defense. why can't the twolves take knox and trier for culver.

knox and trier are lowIQ, offense only players, like wiggins and KAT. they'll score 150 ppg, but lose all 82. and the knicks will have culver. everyone is happy, and the knicks start winning

Hes a kid lol. Nobody is expecting Knox to be a franchise player but to say he cant contribute or get better at defense WITH HIS LENGTH iS absurd!


Don't think it's impossible, just very highly unlikely. He was very much a net negative when he saw the court.

Way too many wasted possessions and shots with his awful decision making. Way too many easy buckets with his lack of defensive skill and awareness.

If he showed strong growth, that'd be one thing and would change my mind. He had very little growth in shot selection, and nothing defensively.

I only go by what he showed throughout a full season. He did not give much hope. Top much of a net negative.


Now, maybe an argument can be made that, with the right veterans and guidance, he can learn the basics of basketball and defense. He's very young, so it's possible, just not plausible.

But that's why a guy like Kyrie is asinine to bring in. He'd absolutely ruin guys like knox, Trier, and dsjr, who are lowIQ but talented. They'd go their whole careers looking only to score points and not play defense. That doesn't translate to winning. I need my Knicks to show winning matters, not numbers
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#671 » by Juco24 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:05 pm

cooch2584 wrote:You cant have 2 defensely challenged players on the court at the same time. Knox and Frank should NEVER be on the court at the same time.

I've read some strange things about Frank but this....

Not even the worst Frank critic would call him defensively challenged
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#672 » by DaT WaVeY RiCaN » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:21 pm

br7knicks wrote:
DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:
br7knicks wrote:every time i see this thread getting bumped up, i hope it's because he's been traded for someone who plays defense. why can't the twolves take knox and trier for culver.

knox and trier are lowIQ, offense only players, like wiggins and KAT. they'll score 150 ppg, but lose all 82. and the knicks will have culver. everyone is happy, and the knicks start winning

Hes a kid lol. Nobody is expecting Knox to be a franchise player but to say he cant contribute or get better at defense WITH HIS LENGTH iS absurd!


Don't think it's impossible, just very highly unlikely. He was very much a net negative when he saw the court.

Way too many wasted possessions and shots with his awful decision making. Way too many easy buckets with his lack of defensive skill and awareness.

If he showed strong growth, that'd be one thing and would change my mind. He had very little growth in shot selection, and nothing defensively.

I only go by what he showed throughout a full season. He did not give much hope. Top much of a net negative.


Now, maybe an argument can be made that, with the right veterans and guidance, he can learn the basics of basketball and defense. He's very young, so it's possible, just not plausibl
e.

But that's why a guy like Kyrie is asinine to bring in. He'd absolutely ruin guys like knox, Trier, and dsjr, who are lowIQ but talented. They'd go their whole careers looking only to score points and not play defense. That doesn't translate to winning. I need my Knicks to show winning matters, not numbers

Bingo! One thing ive noticed about Fizdale about Knox comparing to other players was how he kinds gave him a excuse. I always remember how many times he would say remarks like “he doesnt even know what hes doing yet”


What I like about Fiz tho is he is going out his way to spend time and work with the guys. Not alot of coaches doing that. Im really interested to see if Fiz develops Knox. Thats his “specialty “ so I really hope we are patient with him. He looks like a kid who doesnt have a full amount of confidence. Lets hope he just works on his motor.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#673 » by blanko » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:29 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
blanko wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:The only players that need summer league are guys trying to make teams. Guys with a secure spot don't need sl at all.
No second year guys get burn also. Not every game but they do get burn.

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The games are rather meaningless to contracted players. If they were why not play every game if there is value there?
Its also abour getting your confidence up and dropping big numbers on subpar competition. Josh hart did that last year

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#674 » by Billy Goat » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:30 pm

DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:
br7knicks wrote:every time i see this thread getting bumped up, i hope it's because he's been traded for someone who plays defense. why can't the twolves take knox and trier for culver.

knox and trier are lowIQ, offense only players, like wiggins and KAT. they'll score 150 ppg, but lose all 82. and the knicks will have culver. everyone is happy, and the knicks start winning

Hes a kid lol. Nobody is expecting Knox to be a franchise player but to say he cant contribute or get better at defense WITH HIS LENGTH iS absurd!


Of course he can get better. Shot selection however gets ingrained with coaching. If there's just a repeat of last year, letting the young dudes freelance the Knicks wont improve. You can execute an offense with young players.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#675 » by blanko » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:31 pm

Why is he saying that frank is bad on d?

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#676 » by Billy Goat » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:32 pm

br7knicks wrote:
DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:
br7knicks wrote:every time i see this thread getting bumped up, i hope it's because he's been traded for someone who plays defense. why can't the twolves take knox and trier for culver.

knox and trier are lowIQ, offense only players, like wiggins and KAT. they'll score 150 ppg, but lose all 82. and the knicks will have culver. everyone is happy, and the knicks start winning

Hes a kid lol. Nobody is expecting Knox to be a franchise player but to say he cant contribute or get better at defense WITH HIS LENGTH iS absurd!


Don't think it's impossible, just very highly unlikely. He was very much a net negative when he saw the court.

Way too many wasted possessions and shots with his awful decision making. Way too many easy buckets with his lack of defensive skill and awareness.

If he showed strong growth, that'd be one thing and would change my mind. He had very little growth in shot selection, and nothing defensively.

I only go by what he showed throughout a full season. He did not give much hope. Top much of a net negative.


Now, maybe an argument can be made that, with the right veterans and guidance, he can learn the basics of basketball and defense. He's very young, so it's possible, just not plausible.


But that's why a guy like Kyrie is asinine to bring in. He'd absolutely ruin guys like knox, Trier, and dsjr, who are lowIQ but talented. They'd go their whole careers looking only to score points and not play defense. That doesn't translate to winning. I need my Knicks to show winning matters, not numbers


I mean we have posters here advocating for Deangelo Russell and Julius Randle lol...any suggestions of veteran stability gets met with resistance because it somehow "stunts" the rebuild.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#677 » by HerSports85 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:36 pm

cooch2584 wrote:You cant have 2 defensely challenged players on the court at the same time. Knox and Frank should NEVER be on the court at the same time.


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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#678 » by br7knicks » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:39 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
br7knicks wrote:
DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:Hes a kid lol. Nobody is expecting Knox to be a franchise player but to say he cant contribute or get better at defense WITH HIS LENGTH iS absurd!


Don't think it's impossible, just very highly unlikely. He was very much a net negative when he saw the court.

Way too many wasted possessions and shots with his awful decision making. Way too many easy buckets with his lack of defensive skill and awareness.

If he showed strong growth, that'd be one thing and would change my mind. He had very little growth in shot selection, and nothing defensively.

I only go by what he showed throughout a full season. He did not give much hope. Top much of a net negative.


Now, maybe an argument can be made that, with the right veterans and guidance, he can learn the basics of basketball and defense. He's very young, so it's possible, just not plausible.


But that's why a guy like Kyrie is asinine to bring in. He'd absolutely ruin guys like knox, Trier, and dsjr, who are lowIQ but talented. They'd go their whole careers looking only to score points and not play defense. That doesn't translate to winning. I need my Knicks to show winning matters, not numbers


I mean we have posters here advocating for Deangelo Russell and Julius Randle lol...any suggestions of veteran stability gets met with resistance because it somehow "stunts" the rebuild.

Those would be good examples of bad veterans
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#679 » by cooch2584 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:41 pm

Juco24 wrote:
cooch2584 wrote:You cant have 2 defensely challenged players on the court at the same time. Knox and Frank should NEVER be on the court at the same time.

I've read some strange things about Frank but this....

Not even the worst Frank critic would call him defensively challenged


As I said before his defense doesnt live up to the defense I have seen over my years as a fan. I just dont think hes a smart player. Yes hes young and so is knox and i hope down the road my opinion is changed on both of them. Question, as of right now, with what we have , if we had to put a starting 5 on the court right now, who would be yalls starting 5??
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#680 » by Billy Goat » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:42 pm

br7knicks wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
br7knicks wrote:
Don't think it's impossible, just very highly unlikely. He was very much a net negative when he saw the court.

Way too many wasted possessions and shots with his awful decision making. Way too many easy buckets with his lack of defensive skill and awareness.

If he showed strong growth, that'd be one thing and would change my mind. He had very little growth in shot selection, and nothing defensively.

I only go by what he showed throughout a full season. He did not give much hope. Top much of a net negative.


Now, maybe an argument can be made that, with the right veterans and guidance, he can learn the basics of basketball and defense. He's very young, so it's possible, just not plausible.


But that's why a guy like Kyrie is asinine to bring in. He'd absolutely ruin guys like knox, Trier, and dsjr, who are lowIQ but talented. They'd go their whole careers looking only to score points and not play defense. That doesn't translate to winning. I need my Knicks to show winning matters, not numbers


I mean we have posters here advocating for Deangelo Russell and Julius Randle lol...any suggestions of veteran stability gets met with resistance because it somehow "stunts" the rebuild.

Those would be good examples of bad veterans


Of course. Guys like Danny Green and Collison are probably going to want to go to a contender, but that's the perfect type of role player/veteran these young guys need. Not ball hogs like Russell and Randle.

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