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Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#841 » by melo4three » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:19 pm

robillionaire wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
melo4three wrote:
He had a couple of games, but at 35% shooting it was same story we have seen from him at every step of his process so far. I believe he has place in the league where he can succeed as a catch and shoot wing. But everything I have seen has shown me he shouldn't be anything more and that is perfectly fine because we need someone to play off ball on this team.


I think he also look great attacking the basket. Especially in transition. But again. Idk what the Knicks are thinking with any of thier moves this offseason. A young team with guys who all benefit an uptempo pace low individual skill basketball. Push it push it.

So what do we do? Sign a ton of guys that'll ensure we play rigid 90s halfcourt basketball. Next its gonna be how Robinson isnt as good as we thought at all because hes not creating in the post....very predictable actually when instead he shouldve been part of a 1in 4 out system. Itll be obvious that all our guards cant shoot. Why? Well because they cant shoot lol, but really because we'll be in the halfcourt on all our sets.

I dont feel like our offseason benefits a single player individually. The premise I get is more 1 yr contracts while continuing to develop but to me what's the point if the 1 yr contracts are all made up of lower tier win now players wholl dictate how we play more than the youngins we intend to develop?

I didnt mind Randolph if he were literally the only bigman we signed this offseason. To double down with 4 is just stupid. It has ripple effects all over this roster. We will most likely never see Knox at PF which is where his development curve should take him and by the time the Knicks figure it out we wouldve all written Knox off. A player could be absolutely a different player at PF than SF. Barrett will most likely never see time at SF with makes it so Frank and Trier get less than ideal minutes at SG. This is a guards league. It should be nothing to see 3 guard lineups. Why do the Knicks always value size as a competetive advantage.....and not even size like the type I like where it's a guy whose tall but extremely coordinated like Giannes or Durant. We routinely love our traditional lineups and will do everything in our power to recreate them every rebuild. In 5 yrs when we tire of this team and start building a new one.....gotta be the most traditional lineup in the league. Only team I know who does the same thing successfully is the Utah Jazz and to some extent the Pacers


Who is Randolph? You mean Marcus Morris? Julius Randle? :lol:


I am not sure? Neither plays anything like z-bo at all.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#842 » by Nazrmohamed » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:56 pm

melo4three wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
I think he also look great attacking the basket. Especially in transition. But again. Idk what the Knicks are thinking with any of thier moves this offseason. A young team with guys who all benefit an uptempo pace low individual skill basketball. Push it push it.

So what do we do? Sign a ton of guys that'll ensure we play rigid 90s halfcourt basketball. Next its gonna be how Robinson isnt as good as we thought at all because hes not creating in the post....very predictable actually when instead he shouldve been part of a 1in 4 out system. Itll be obvious that all our guards cant shoot. Why? Well because they cant shoot lol, but really because we'll be in the halfcourt on all our sets.

I dont feel like our offseason benefits a single player individually. The premise I get is more 1 yr contracts while continuing to develop but to me what's the point if the 1 yr contracts are all made up of lower tier win now players wholl dictate how we play more than the youngins we intend to develop?

I didnt mind Randolph if he were literally the only bigman we signed this offseason. To double down with 4 is just stupid. It has ripple effects all over this roster. We will most likely never see Knox at PF which is where his development curve should take him and by the time the Knicks figure it out we wouldve all written Knox off. A player could be absolutely a different player at PF than SF. Barrett will most likely never see time at SF with makes it so Frank and Trier get less than ideal minutes at SG. This is a guards league. It should be nothing to see 3 guard lineups. Why do the Knicks always value size as a competetive advantage.....and not even size like the type I like where it's a guy whose tall but extremely coordinated like Giannes or Durant. We routinely love our traditional lineups and will do everything in our power to recreate them every rebuild. In 5 yrs when we tire of this team and start building a new one.....gotta be the most traditional lineup in the league. Only team I know who does the same thing successfully is the Utah Jazz and to some extent the Pacers


Who is Randolph? You mean Marcus Morris? Julius Randle? :lol:


I am not sure? Neither plays anything like z-bo at all.


I meant Julius but in some ways he'll be our modern day version and I dont mean a replica of old Z-Bo transplanted today but rather what Z-Bo might look like if he evolved into a modern player. At the end of the day even at the 4 the game is changing to long 3s with that level of mobility playing the 4. Giannes, Lebron some nights, Durant...guys like that. Even Simmons. So I get that Randall isnt Zbo but compared to his peers he might as well be.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#843 » by taj2133 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:34 pm

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#844 » by bearadonisdna » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:03 pm

taj2133 wrote:
Read on Twitter


One thing is feel I that these guys going with the ‘brand’ is fantastic. In a way I love everything about it.
In another way feel these young players should have the freedom to wear which ever shoe they like.
Regardless of brand because the performance aspect is too important.

If Knox and rj, only wear puma t’s and and pants that dope, but on the court the player having success is what’s most important, not what shoes he has on.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#845 » by br7knicks » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 pm

GreatWhiteStiff wrote:I'm pretty sure he wasn't actually "lighting up" summer league though. He put up some volume scoring numbers in a few games, and that's it. He wasn't looking like an allstar, even by summer league standards. IIRC.


yeah, knox was really bad in his first run with summer league, last year.



ANYONE who got excited about knox during his rookie year stint in Summer League clearly didn't watch a second of it, they just looked at the PPG. they didn't look at the FG%, FGA, or his atrocious defense and lowIQ.



that being said, he showed improvement this past summer league. he made smarter players. still pretty low IQ, and still pitiful on defense. but he did look better, and played like he gave a ****.


i'm not holding my breath with knox, but even i can admit that i can see him having a better year this season
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#846 » by 8516knicks » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:29 pm

We will count on him to lead us in manY

future summer leagues.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#847 » by blanko » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:47 am

Morris will be traded by jan. Knox will get most if his min.

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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#848 » by EL CABRITO » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:19 pm

Knox is super dependable in the 2K, I can toss him the rock and he can finish anywhere...maybe this year he can be like his video game persona.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#849 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:39 pm

Knox gets a lot of heat on this board, at least from some. I know I got on him for his defense.

Defense aside, which we know needs a lot of work and may never be good, Knox is a pretty decent scorer. Or I should say "was", as a young 19, and a rookie.

So, this year, he'll start the season 20 years old and about 2 months. That means he started last year at 19 years old, two months. Which means he was playing in the summer league at 18 (ok, barely)

Ultimately, Knox's FG % wasn't all that hot. We know he took, and missed enough shots.

But young players are almost always inconsistent.

When you look at Knox's form on his jumper, it's good. He's good at 3's off the dribble, catch and shoot, off a cut. He's good on pulling up on jumpers inside the arc. This is based on form. It's there. Did he miss enough 2 pt FG's? Oh yes.

Knox missed enough layups to go with jumpers. I think it was obvious a lot of them were about strength. Again, he's pretty adept at finishing, in that he has a variety of moves and can adjust, but he wasn't adjusting to getting bumped as he has to get stronger.
Two things: 19 years old, rookie. Those will get better. Probably starting this year, but it might take 3 years total.

So, Knox's FG% was .370%, which is pretty bad. However, 40% of his shots were 3 pointers. That's going to pull the FG% down some, though obviously he has to get better at 2 pt FG's, through a combination of finishing stronger and more consistency with his jumper.

Knox's FG% for 3PT range was .343. NBA league average was .355.
Yeah, Knox was .012% points "off" league average. What is that, missing one more 3 every 5 games?

Point is, a young guy, at 19, coming off one year of college and adjusting to the new distance, shot league average for 3. That bodes well for Knox to become an above average 3 point shooter.


Last, but not least. Knox shows some skill in the open court and driving the ball. He's got good form on both his 3 point jumper and dribble pull up jumpers from 2 point range. Again, both need consistency; the driving needs strength/work. But Knox has something most young players don't have and lots of vets don't have. That floater.

Knox's floater/push shot is a weapon and I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Watch his highlights. Knox is hitting floaters, adjusting to the defense ANYWHERE in the paint. And I mean anywhere. I must have counted like 10 from around the FT line.

Knox has a shot that enables him to get off a shot he is clearly comfortable with, that he uses to adjust to the defense being played, from anywhere from 12 feet in. And I mean anywhere. Sure, lots of players have the "line up with the basket straight in" floater, but Knox uses his floater like a jump hook push shot from all angles.

Maybe I'm over analyzing it (well, yes I am) but I think you take that ability, add Knox's 3 point range, already decent NOW, his decent ability to put the ball on the floor (for a SF), and his ability to dribble and hit jumpers, plus adding some strength on drives, and I think Knox winds up being a pretty potent scorer one day.

In fact, I think at some point in his career, Knox has a 20 ppg season. At least one.

Yeah, I said it.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#850 » by K-DOT » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:00 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:Knox gets a lot of heat on this board, at least from some. I know I got on him for his defense.

Defense aside, which we know needs a lot of work and may never be good, Knox is a pretty decent scorer. Or I should say "was", as a young 19, and a rookie.

So, this year, he'll start the season 20 years old and about 2 months. That means he started last year at 19 years old, two months. Which means he was playing in the summer league at 18 (ok, barely)

Ultimately, Knox's FG % wasn't all that hot. We know he took, and missed enough shots.

But young players are almost always inconsistent.

When you look at Knox's form on his jumper, it's good. He's good at 3's off the dribble, catch and shoot, off a cut. He's good on pulling up on jumpers inside the arc. This is based on form. It's there. Did he miss enough 2 pt FG's? Oh yes.

Knox missed enough layups to go with jumpers. I think it was obvious a lot of them were about strength. Again, he's pretty adept at finishing, in that he has a variety of moves and can adjust, but he wasn't adjusting to getting bumped as he has to get stronger.
Two things: 19 years old, rookie. Those will get better. Probably starting this year, but it might take 3 years total.

So, Knox's FG% was .370%, which is pretty bad. However, 40% of his shots were 3 pointers. That's going to pull the FG% down some, though obviously he has to get better at 2 pt FG's, through a combination of finishing stronger and more consistency with his jumper.

Knox's FG% for 3PT range was .343. NBA league average was .355.
Yeah, Knox was .012% points "off" league average. What is that, missing one more 3 every 5 games?

Point is, a young guy, at 19, coming off one year of college and adjusting to the new distance, shot league average for 3. That bodes well for Knox to become an above average 3 point shooter.


Last, but not least. Knox shows some skill in the open court and driving the ball. He's got good form on both his 3 point jumper and dribble pull up jumpers from 2 point range. Again, both need consistency; the driving needs strength/work. But Knox has something most young players don't have and lots of vets don't have. That floater.

Knox's floater/push shot is a weapon and I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Watch his highlights. Knox is hitting floaters, adjusting to the defense ANYWHERE in the paint. And I mean anywhere. I must have counted like 10 from around the FT line.

Knox has a shot that enables him to get off a shot he is clearly comfortable with, that he uses to adjust to the defense being played, from anywhere from 12 feet in. And I mean anywhere. Sure, lots of players have the "line up with the basket straight in" floater, but Knox uses his floater like a jump hook push shot from all angles.

Maybe I'm over analyzing it (well, yes I am) but I think you take that ability, add Knox's 3 point range, already decent NOW, his decent ability to put the ball on the floor (for a SF), and his ability to dribble and hit jumpers, plus adding some strength on drives, and I think Knox winds up being a pretty potent scorer one day.

In fact, I think at some point in his career, Knox has a 20 ppg season. At least one.

Yeah, I said it.

To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#851 » by NYG » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:08 pm

The progress made this season will determine if he’s a good or bad pick IMO. Not saying I expect a go to star, but we need to see significant progress.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#852 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:26 pm

K-DOT wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Knox gets a lot of heat on this board, at least from some. I know I got on him for his defense.

Defense aside, which we know needs a lot of work and may never be good, Knox is a pretty decent scorer. Or I should say "was", as a young 19, and a rookie.

So, this year, he'll start the season 20 years old and about 2 months. That means he started last year at 19 years old, two months. Which means he was playing in the summer league at 18 (ok, barely)

Ultimately, Knox's FG % wasn't all that hot. We know he took, and missed enough shots.

But young players are almost always inconsistent.

When you look at Knox's form on his jumper, it's good. He's good at 3's off the dribble, catch and shoot, off a cut. He's good on pulling up on jumpers inside the arc. This is based on form. It's there. Did he miss enough 2 pt FG's? Oh yes.

Knox missed enough layups to go with jumpers. I think it was obvious a lot of them were about strength. Again, he's pretty adept at finishing, in that he has a variety of moves and can adjust, but he wasn't adjusting to getting bumped as he has to get stronger.
Two things: 19 years old, rookie. Those will get better. Probably starting this year, but it might take 3 years total.

So, Knox's FG% was .370%, which is pretty bad. However, 40% of his shots were 3 pointers. That's going to pull the FG% down some, though obviously he has to get better at 2 pt FG's, through a combination of finishing stronger and more consistency with his jumper.

Knox's FG% for 3PT range was .343. NBA league average was .355.
Yeah, Knox was .012% points "off" league average. What is that, missing one more 3 every 5 games?

Point is, a young guy, at 19, coming off one year of college and adjusting to the new distance, shot league average for 3. That bodes well for Knox to become an above average 3 point shooter.


Last, but not least. Knox shows some skill in the open court and driving the ball. He's got good form on both his 3 point jumper and dribble pull up jumpers from 2 point range. Again, both need consistency; the driving needs strength/work. But Knox has something most young players don't have and lots of vets don't have. That floater.

Knox's floater/push shot is a weapon and I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Watch his highlights. Knox is hitting floaters, adjusting to the defense ANYWHERE in the paint. And I mean anywhere. I must have counted like 10 from around the FT line.

Knox has a shot that enables him to get off a shot he is clearly comfortable with, that he uses to adjust to the defense being played, from anywhere from 12 feet in. And I mean anywhere. Sure, lots of players have the "line up with the basket straight in" floater, but Knox uses his floater like a jump hook push shot from all angles.

Maybe I'm over analyzing it (well, yes I am) but I think you take that ability, add Knox's 3 point range, already decent NOW, his decent ability to put the ball on the floor (for a SF), and his ability to dribble and hit jumpers, plus adding some strength on drives, and I think Knox winds up being a pretty potent scorer one day.

In fact, I think at some point in his career, Knox has a 20 ppg season. At least one.

Yeah, I said it.

To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#853 » by K-DOT » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:49 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Knox gets a lot of heat on this board, at least from some. I know I got on him for his defense.

Defense aside, which we know needs a lot of work and may never be good, Knox is a pretty decent scorer. Or I should say "was", as a young 19, and a rookie.

So, this year, he'll start the season 20 years old and about 2 months. That means he started last year at 19 years old, two months. Which means he was playing in the summer league at 18 (ok, barely)

Ultimately, Knox's FG % wasn't all that hot. We know he took, and missed enough shots.

But young players are almost always inconsistent.

When you look at Knox's form on his jumper, it's good. He's good at 3's off the dribble, catch and shoot, off a cut. He's good on pulling up on jumpers inside the arc. This is based on form. It's there. Did he miss enough 2 pt FG's? Oh yes.

Knox missed enough layups to go with jumpers. I think it was obvious a lot of them were about strength. Again, he's pretty adept at finishing, in that he has a variety of moves and can adjust, but he wasn't adjusting to getting bumped as he has to get stronger.
Two things: 19 years old, rookie. Those will get better. Probably starting this year, but it might take 3 years total.

So, Knox's FG% was .370%, which is pretty bad. However, 40% of his shots were 3 pointers. That's going to pull the FG% down some, though obviously he has to get better at 2 pt FG's, through a combination of finishing stronger and more consistency with his jumper.

Knox's FG% for 3PT range was .343. NBA league average was .355.
Yeah, Knox was .012% points "off" league average. What is that, missing one more 3 every 5 games?

Point is, a young guy, at 19, coming off one year of college and adjusting to the new distance, shot league average for 3. That bodes well for Knox to become an above average 3 point shooter.


Last, but not least. Knox shows some skill in the open court and driving the ball. He's got good form on both his 3 point jumper and dribble pull up jumpers from 2 point range. Again, both need consistency; the driving needs strength/work. But Knox has something most young players don't have and lots of vets don't have. That floater.

Knox's floater/push shot is a weapon and I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Watch his highlights. Knox is hitting floaters, adjusting to the defense ANYWHERE in the paint. And I mean anywhere. I must have counted like 10 from around the FT line.

Knox has a shot that enables him to get off a shot he is clearly comfortable with, that he uses to adjust to the defense being played, from anywhere from 12 feet in. And I mean anywhere. Sure, lots of players have the "line up with the basket straight in" floater, but Knox uses his floater like a jump hook push shot from all angles.

Maybe I'm over analyzing it (well, yes I am) but I think you take that ability, add Knox's 3 point range, already decent NOW, his decent ability to put the ball on the floor (for a SF), and his ability to dribble and hit jumpers, plus adding some strength on drives, and I think Knox winds up being a pretty potent scorer one day.

In fact, I think at some point in his career, Knox has a 20 ppg season. At least one.

Yeah, I said it.

To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.

Right, I think it's always important with young players, especially 18, 19 year olds, that stats really only tell you where they are right now, not where they could be in 5, 6 years. Like, statistically speaking, Jarrett Culver is a better player right this second than RJ, but pretty much nobody would've taken him over RJ, cause of things you can't calculate by looking at stats

I'm right with you on RJ, I don't think he'll have a great year, statistically speaking. I think his best comp will be Timmy from that perspective, around 18 ish ppg on bad efficiency, plus I don't think his defense will be good year 1. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing, that would actually put him in the upper tier of rookie years. Not everyone's gonna be Luka, 19 years old and actually contributing to winning basketball. RJ will struggle a lot, but as someone who's constantly saying be patient with Frank, I don't think it's fair at all if I don't extend that same level of patience to the rest of our young guys
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#854 » by 3toheadmelo » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:52 pm

If Knox develops a KD type handle...
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#855 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:06 pm

K-DOT wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.

Right, I think it's always important with young players, especially 18, 19 year olds, that stats really only tell you where they are right now, not where they could be in 5, 6 years. Like, statistically speaking, Jarrett Culver is a better player right this second than RJ, but pretty much nobody would've taken him over RJ, cause of things you can't calculate by looking at stats

I'm right with you on RJ, I don't think he'll have a great year, statistically speaking. I think his best comp will be Timmy from that perspective, around 18 ish ppg on bad efficiency, plus I don't think his defense will be good year 1. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing, that would actually put him in the upper tier of rookie years. Not everyone's gonna be Luka, 19 years old and actually contributing to winning basketball. RJ will struggle a lot, but as someone who's constantly saying be patient with Frank, I don't think it's fair at all if I don't extend that same level of patience to the rest of our young guys


Exactly.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#856 » by melo4three » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:48 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Knox gets a lot of heat on this board, at least from some. I know I got on him for his defense.

Defense aside, which we know needs a lot of work and may never be good, Knox is a pretty decent scorer. Or I should say "was", as a young 19, and a rookie.

So, this year, he'll start the season 20 years old and about 2 months. That means he started last year at 19 years old, two months. Which means he was playing in the summer league at 18 (ok, barely)

Ultimately, Knox's FG % wasn't all that hot. We know he took, and missed enough shots.

But young players are almost always inconsistent.

When you look at Knox's form on his jumper, it's good. He's good at 3's off the dribble, catch and shoot, off a cut. He's good on pulling up on jumpers inside the arc. This is based on form. It's there. Did he miss enough 2 pt FG's? Oh yes.

Knox missed enough layups to go with jumpers. I think it was obvious a lot of them were about strength. Again, he's pretty adept at finishing, in that he has a variety of moves and can adjust, but he wasn't adjusting to getting bumped as he has to get stronger.
Two things: 19 years old, rookie. Those will get better. Probably starting this year, but it might take 3 years total.

So, Knox's FG% was .370%, which is pretty bad. However, 40% of his shots were 3 pointers. That's going to pull the FG% down some, though obviously he has to get better at 2 pt FG's, through a combination of finishing stronger and more consistency with his jumper.

Knox's FG% for 3PT range was .343. NBA league average was .355.
Yeah, Knox was .012% points "off" league average. What is that, missing one more 3 every 5 games?

Point is, a young guy, at 19, coming off one year of college and adjusting to the new distance, shot league average for 3. That bodes well for Knox to become an above average 3 point shooter.


Last, but not least. Knox shows some skill in the open court and driving the ball. He's got good form on both his 3 point jumper and dribble pull up jumpers from 2 point range. Again, both need consistency; the driving needs strength/work. But Knox has something most young players don't have and lots of vets don't have. That floater.

Knox's floater/push shot is a weapon and I'm surprised it isn't discussed more. Watch his highlights. Knox is hitting floaters, adjusting to the defense ANYWHERE in the paint. And I mean anywhere. I must have counted like 10 from around the FT line.

Knox has a shot that enables him to get off a shot he is clearly comfortable with, that he uses to adjust to the defense being played, from anywhere from 12 feet in. And I mean anywhere. Sure, lots of players have the "line up with the basket straight in" floater, but Knox uses his floater like a jump hook push shot from all angles.

Maybe I'm over analyzing it (well, yes I am) but I think you take that ability, add Knox's 3 point range, already decent NOW, his decent ability to put the ball on the floor (for a SF), and his ability to dribble and hit jumpers, plus adding some strength on drives, and I think Knox winds up being a pretty potent scorer one day.

In fact, I think at some point in his career, Knox has a 20 ppg season. At least one.

Yeah, I said it.

To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.


It’s not age, Mitch was the same age and didn’t play any kind of ball higher than high school. And yet he was amazing


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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#857 » by 8516knicks » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:23 pm

Kevin Knox needs no defense! Now if we can only find out who told him that...
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#858 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:33 pm

melo4three wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.


It’s not age, Mitch was the same age and didn’t play any kind of ball higher than high school. And yet he was amazing


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Mitch was asked to block shots and be a rim runner.

It's a little different.

Also, not every player is on the same development curve.
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#859 » by MadGrinch » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:11 pm

melo4three wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.


It’s not age, Mitch was the same age and didn’t play any kind of ball higher than high school. And yet he was amazing


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actually mitch is over a year older than knox...
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Re: Fort Knox: A defense of Kevin Knox 

Post#860 » by malik959 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:20 pm

melo4three wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:To add to this, Knox was actually surprisingly decent as a PnR scorer. 64th percentile, 45% eFG, not world beating, but really solid especially for someone so big and so raw. Spot ups were alright too, 43rd percentile, 51% eFG, he just could not iso to save his life (11th percentile, 29% eFG), and he only shot 50% around the rim (which is dreadful)

I think it's perfectly fair to give him passes for last year. Given that he was the youngest player in the league and not the most polished guy coming out, plus the fact that our "system" was very iso heavy and we didn't pass very well which was not catered to his skillset at all. Which, to be fair, he was just kind of an overall terrible offensive player last year, not really good at anything in particular, even his PnR scoring which he was the best at relative to the rest of the league was still pretty mediocre

His defense is another story. I think I posted the stats in the DSJ thread, but my new favorite tool on stats.nba.com is a two player on/off comparison, gives you one player's stats when another player is on vs off, and in the admittedly small sample of games DSJ was here, Knox being on the floor with him made his Drtg 15 points worse (and his offense 11 points worse). This is a bit of an exaggeration, so I use Frank as a control, which has him being 8.3 points worse defensively when Knox is on vs off. Not as dramatic as DSJ, but it's probably more indicative and is still pretty bad (in case you were wondering, Knox made our offense with Frank 3.2 points better, but we were still by far better off with him on the bench. It's kind of a scenario where neither option makes us good, but in terms of NetRTG it's the difference between being a bottom 5 team and being far and away the worst team in the league)

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628372&VsPlayerID=1628995&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=02%2F02%2F2019&DateTo=08%2F01%2F2019

I do like his potential. He's just, terrible right now which is to be expected. I think a good comp for him might be Gallo, just overall a very good but not great scorer, and I think while his defense was pretty cancerous this year, we could at least develop it into being, good enough to stay on the floor in a tight game. Give him 2 or 3 more years of development and he could be really nice for us


I don't even think he's terrible. The stats kind of indicate he is, but it has to be taken in the context of a young player. Of course he got too many minutes, but maybe the Knicks felt that would fast track his development; I don't know. He wound up at 28 mpg average. I guess it could have been 20 mpg, but I'm not going to argue about 8 mpg when the alternative was more Dotson or Mario.

Point is, he may not do anything in a standout way, other than the floater, which, stats aside, I think is a big deal, but going on form and 3 point shooting percentage, and a mix of "decent" all around offensive skills, I think he's a project who will pan out to be good offensively.

This is going to be an ongoing thing, with players coming it at 18, 19 years old. That they are projects. I mean, Frank has defenders, and he's pretty awful offensively as well, and yet they retain optimism over things like "aggression" or "form".

Knox is way ahead of first year Frank, offensively, other than Frank is a better passer, which is to be expected based on position. Obviously, Frank is worlds ahead of Knox defensively. Both guys have major question marks.

Get ready for RJ to have some question marks too.


It’s not age, Mitch was the same age and didn’t play any kind of ball higher than high school. And yet he was amazing


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All he does is dunk, he has yet to take at least one jump shot. You expect Knox to be able to do much more.

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